Knife crime and stop and search

[Mungler]

So, I sit down to my tea and low and behold there are reports of another stabbing this time in Hyde Park, in daylight and in front of 100 people by a gang wielding machetes and swords.

I know the BBC stopped publishing the photos of stab victims and those wanted in connection with stabbings because by and large they were all black faces.

LBC’s Nick Ferrari has tried in the past to press for stop and search and targeted against those most likely to be the perpetrators, after all, if the lion’s share of all knife crime involves black males 14-35 years of age, there doesn’t seem much point in stopping and searching the likes of my mum or a bus full of nuns.

As a white Middle Aged male I would like to understand why stop and search is a bad idea and why targeted stop and search is supposed to be even worse. I genuinely don’t get it.

And yes, it is worrying as we appear to be at a point where you can get into trouble for just saying the truth or applying simple mathematical percentages to obvious problems.

I am genuinely bemused by all of this. Indeed, if I was a member of the Met I’d be wondering about now precisely what it is I was supposed to be doing to bring knife crime down when I don’t have the tools / powers to do something which appears both obvious and necessary.

 

[sam triple]

Best ask the PC brigade why it’s a bad idea no doubt they’ll spout something about racism, personally I think if you’ve done nothing wrong you’ve nothing to fear 

[mel b3]

28 minutes ago, Mungler said:

So, I sit down to my tea and low and behold there are reports of another stabbing this time in Hyde Park, in daylight and in front of 100 people by a gang wielding machetes and swords.

I know the BBC stopped publishing the photos of stab victims and those wanted in connection with stabbings because by and large they were all black faces.

LBC’s Nick Ferrari has tried in the past to press for stop and search and targeted against those most likely to be the perpetrators, after all, if the lion’s share of all knife crime involves black males 14-35 years of age, there doesn’t seem much point in stopping and searching the likes of my mum or a bus full of nuns.

As a white Middle Aged male I would like to understand why stop and search is a bad idea and why targeted stop and search is supposed to be even worse. I genuinely don’t get it.

And yes, it is worrying as we appear to be at a point where you can get into trouble for just saying the truth or applying simple mathematical percentages to obvious problems.

I am genuinely bemused by all of this. Indeed, if I was a member of the Met I’d be wondering about now precisely what it is I was supposed to be doing to bring knife crime down when I don’t have the tools / powers to do something which appears both obvious and necessary.

 

The simple fact is , that we live in a world filled with wetters , where the truth can never be spoken , and things will never improve.  Even the most simple minded fool can see the glaringly obvious truth ,  but isn't allowed to speak it.  

[Ultrastu]

If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck .then it probably is a duck .

The truth is clear for all to see except ny those who are blinded by hate. 

[JohnfromUK]

1 hour ago, Mungler said:

.......   press for stop and search and targeted against those most likely to be the perpetrators, after all, if the lion’s share of all knife crime involves black males 14-35 years of age, there doesn’t seem much point in stopping and searching the likes of my mum or a bus full of nuns.

As a white Middle Aged male I would like to understand why stop and search is a bad idea and why targeted stop and search is supposed to be even worse. I genuinely don’t get it.

Entirely agree (with the possible exception that I no longer pass easily for "Middle Aged")

 

32 minutes ago, Ultrastu said:

The truth is clear for all to see except by those who are blinded by hate.

Yes, that is also true.

Edited June 2, 2021 by JohnfromUK

[Walker570]

Carrying anything with the purpose of injuring or killing another person should have a set minimum sentence of 25yrs no parole. Take the garbage off the streets period.

Many moons ago criminals would defer being involved in a crime if one of the team was carrying a gun as they would be set the same charge as the person using it and back then that often included the rope.  

Today, what do they get?  50hrs community service over 12 months..an hour once a week. Hence we have the problem.

[stumfelter]

19 minutes ago, Walker570 said:

Carrying anything with the purpose of injuring or killing another person should have a set minimum sentence of 25yrs no parole. Take the garbage off the streets period.

Many moons ago criminals would defer being involved in a crime if one of the team was carrying a gun as they would be set the same charge as the person using it and back then that often included the rope.  

Today, what do they get?  50hrs community service over 12 months..an hour once a week. Hence we have the problem.

Hardly feasible, every prison in the UK would be full within a month...

[dipper]

Bring back the cat.

 

 

 

[Walker570]

1 hour ago, stumfelter said:

Hardly feasible, every prison in the UK would be full within a month...

Then build some more.

[Mice!]

6 hours ago, Mungler said:

know the BBC stopped publishing the photos of stab victims and those wanted in connection with stabbings because by and large they were all black faces.

In some areas they may be black, but white in other areas, Formby beach had a dispersal notice on Monday/Sunday  there was a fight with an axe and a samurai sword,  then more trouble the day after, while people were on the beach, and people were being asked if they were there the day before!!

If I went the beach or park and that happened I'm certainly not going to go back the following day. 

I was sent a video of a fight that I think happened in Preston, one guy bleeding holding a err wired looking knife, maybe 2ft long, the other guy goes to a pick up where he is handed a machete!!

They then go at each other!!!

I couldn't care less what colour people are, if there is trouble with a particular group of people then the police should be able to target those people,  but it won't happen because of all the bleeding hearts, so idiots will keep killing each other, I just hope innocent bystanders aren't involved.

[12gauge82]

Political correctness has gone too far in this country and I think the vast majority of people know it. The Rotherham scandle speaks volumes. The stupid thing is that criminality in no way is a black problem, its just certain crimes are linked to certain cultures, obviously including white British. But if we don't have the conversation about that fact and understand the drivers behind it, it'll just get worse, while breeding further division. 

[sam triple]

7 hours ago, dipper said:

Bring back the cat.

 

 

 

I’d prefer the noose 

[paulinlincs]

When I was 17 I had an early morning start (4am) I used to walk to work and at least twice a week woul be stopped by the Police and asked what I was doing, where I was going etc. It never bothered me at all. I was a young bloke walking through a rough area at 3.30 in the morning. I fitted the profile of a wrong doer. The difference is I had nothing to hide and had done nothing wrong hence I was happy the police were keeping my area safe. The ones moaning are the ones doing the crimes. 

[hodge911]

12 hours ago, sam triple said:

Best ask the PC brigade why it’s a bad idea no doubt they’ll spout something about racism, personally I think if you’ve done nothing wrong you’ve nothing to fear 

Yep..... if approx 90% of residents are black , white , pink or purple in an area it by statistics seems reasonable to assume that a high % of criminals / gang members will be that colour and involved in a vast majority of criminal activity .

But undoubtedly  someone somewhere  will play a racist card.

I.M.H.O

[WalkedUp]

When my late father-in-law was a barrister prosecuting for the Crown he successfully had a man sent down for possession of an offensive weapon in a public place. A Meccano spanner in his pocket at a football match. 

A few years ago I was going to the game in awful weather so put my big shooting coat on. About 200 yards from the ground I happened to put my hand in my pocket and found my Opinel knife from being out lamping a few nights earlier. I realised my problem and my dad offered to put it in his bag as “they won’t look in here”. I walked up to a bin and surreptitiously threw my best knife away for good. When we got to the ground we were both searched, including my father’s bag. 

[toontastic]

1 hour ago, paulinlincs said:

When I was 17 I had an early morning start (4am) I used to walk to work and at least twice a week woul be stopped by the Police and asked what I was doing, where I was going etc. It never bothered me at all. I was a young bloke walking through a rough area at 3.30 in the morning. I fitted the profile of a wrong doer. The difference is I had nothing to hide and had done nothing wrong hence I was happy the police were keeping my area safe. The ones moaning are the ones doing the crimes. 

I was in a similar situation. I was 16 and working for a dairy and started at 3.00, for the first few weeks I got stopped on a number of occasions but then it just stopped. 

[saddler]

18 hours ago, sam triple said:

Best ask the PC brigade why it’s a bad idea no doubt they’ll spout something about racism, personally I think if you’ve done nothing wrong you’ve nothing to fear 

Nice to sign away the common law adage "innocent until proven guilty"; THAT is exactly how un-constitutional laws get brought in, to the detriment of the honest law abiding citizen.

If someone fits the demographic/profile of known offenders/at risk groups, then YES, local initiatives should be used to target those areas/groups in order to address THAT issue specifically.
But, for example, if an ethnic group decides to protest more widespread stop and search policy, citing reason of race, then good for them!
However, they cannot then turn around some time later to complain that THEIR community is blighted by stabbings and murders and they've no idea why and the police must do something...citing race as the reason for the police being inactive on the issue!! Someone more cynical would suggest that the protesting over more common stop and search was nothing to do with da yoots carrying blades. but some other members of the community carrying more illegal substances as part of their local business logistic supply chain delivery network...or some such
Stop and search was removing weapons from the streets which would have gone on to be used on locals from that same community - it also removed some of the individuals from the streets for a while - so they were not there 24/7 as a role model to the next generation seeking to emulate the perceived trappings of wealth/luxury afforded by the criminal lifestyle. Seeing the older generation suddenly lose it all and vanish for an 8 year stretch is less appealing so IS a great deterrent = as others have said, IF folk are even found guilty now they get a mild slap on the wrist and it's business as normal
 

[Walker570]

6 hours ago, paulinlincs said:

When I was 17 I had an early morning start (4am) I used to walk to work and at least twice a week woul be stopped by the Police and asked what I was doing, where I was going etc. It never bothered me at all. I was a young bloke walking through a rough area at 3.30 in the morning. I fitted the profile of a wrong doer. The difference is I had nothing to hide and had done nothing wrong hence I was happy the police were keeping my area safe. The ones moaning are the ones doing the crimes. 

On a tour of nights we would put road stops on at just before or just after break...12mid   or 3am stop each vehicle , explain why and check the occupants.  The law abiding returning from a night out or as above going/coming from work would appreciate we were doing a good job try to keep them safe.   Amazing what we turned up.

There would be a planned number of stops on the Division at the same time covering likely runs in and out of the City.  I cannot ever recall hving stopped any law abiding person then who showed any sign of complaint.  We were interested in serious crime not if you had drank that last whisky before leaving a dinner party.

We lived and worked on our area an knew the criminals which also helped. 

[London Best]

When I passed the driving test, aged 17, I was told by my father, who was a serving police officer, that you were always liable to be stopped after midnight and especially if you were driving a van. It seemed a common sense  idea to me then and it still does.

[henry d]

20 hours ago, Mungler said:

...white Middle Aged male...

So using that profile would you be happy to be stopped and searched as you fit the description for the majority of child sexual abusers, no neither would I. Yes I realise that we don't stop and search for those types of people, but if there was a case in your area, where you work, shop, go to drink/eat and you got stopped for just being white male would you be happy if it was a regular occurrence. 

There will be a rash of; "Absolutely!" but I suspect that having your phone and other electronic devices taken off you and checked making you late, causing inconvenience, etc it would cease to be ok

[12gauge82]

46 minutes ago, henry d said:

So using that profile would you be happy to be stopped and searched as you fit the description for the majority of child sexual abusers, no neither would I. Yes I realise that we don't stop and search for those types of people, but if there was a case in your area, where you work, shop, go to drink/eat and you got stopped for just being white male would you be happy if it was a regular occurrence. 

There will be a rash of; "Absolutely!" but I suspect that having your phone and other electronic devices taken off you and checked making you late, causing inconvenience, etc it would cease to be ok

That example doesn't fit. You'd need to take into account things like time, actions, behaviour ect. I don't believe the police have had a policy of stop searching black people, but when they've put all that together, the outcome is a higher percentage of blacks were being stop searched. 

[daveboy]

A few years ago 19% of people stopped were black (out of only 1% of the population)

At the same time 19% of prisoners were black (out of 1% of the population) so it looks like

stop and search was spot on percentage wise.

 

[countryman]

I have come to the conclusion that the Government would rather let these murders continue than do something that would be considered racist by the same few that shout loudly. 

[Wymondley]

5 hours ago, henry d said:

So using that profile would you be happy to be stopped and searched as you fit the description for the majority of child sexual abusers, no neither would I. Yes I realise that we don't stop and search for those types of people, but if there was a case in your area, where you work, shop, go to drink/eat and you got stopped for just being white male would you be happy if it was a regular occurrence. 

There will be a rash of; "Absolutely!" but I suspect that having your phone and other electronic devices taken off you and checked making you late, causing inconvenience, etc it would cease to be ok

If the police were targeting an area where specific crimes were being committed by white middle aged men, I'd be surprised if I wasn't stopped.

Why should it bother me? I expect the police to detect crime, that's what they're paid for and that's what they're doing.

If I felt any anger about the inconvenience I'd probably be directing it towards the white middle aged men committing the crimes, not the police.

Edited June 3, 2021 by Wymondley

[Mungler]

6 hours ago, henry d said:

So using that profile would you be happy to be stopped and searched as you fit the description for the majority of child sexual abusers, no neither would I. Yes I realise that we don't stop and search for those types of people, but if there was a case in your area, where you work, shop, go to drink/eat and you got stopped for just being white male would you be happy if it was a regular occurrence. 

There will be a rash of; "Absolutely!" but I suspect that having your phone and other electronic devices taken off you and checked making you late, causing inconvenience, etc it would cease to be ok

Your not measuring apples with apples.

But in fairness if I was regularly hanging around outside a school I had no business being near then a quick look at my internet search history wouldn’t be the end of the world nor would it bother me. Indeed, if there was a specific problem and I fit the profile I would be happy for the police to eliminate me from their enquiries and get back to the job in hand. Indeed, giving a few chicken shop owners in Rotherham the once over might have helped a few people eh?

I don’t subscribe to the ‘if you’ve done nothing wrong you have nothing to hide’ mantra and I wouldn’t like being stopped every hour of every day - but saying that, if there was a continuing, serious and prolific problem and I fit the profile then I shouldn’t be that surprised at the police taking action and such action necessarily being to stop me because I fit the bill as a target offender. Carrying on the above example I could ease the situation by not hanging round schools - similarly, not hanging round the streets at 3 am would be one way to avoid being stopped and searched on suspicion of committing street crime.

Edited June 3, 2021 by Mungler