Poor Shot Posted June 9, 2021 Report Share Posted June 9, 2021 17 hours ago, enfieldspares said: Oh yes you can. It was proved in 1925 following the assassination of the then Sirdar of Egypt. The forensic evidence was "proved" by taking fired cases (and I think bullets) from three consecutively made Webley .32 pistols to show that even pistols made one immediately after the other made unique barrel and breech marks. A shotgun case will do less so as it is a lower pressure round but nevertheless will show an ejector/extractor "signature" and firing pin strike. https://www.nzedge.com/legends/sydney-smith/ https://www.firearmsid.com/A_historyoffirearmsID.htm http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/northern_ireland/1630752.stm 17 hours ago, London Best said: Yo need to read The Other Mr. Churchill’, by, I think, Macdonald Hastings. I know they can be sourced from a brass rifle or pistol case, they generally have more complicated actions that leave more marks on the case and the case itself is made entirely of metal which retains these markings. I'm not so convinced that a fairly simple OU shotgun action and mainly plastic cases can retain enough unique markings to accurately determine which specific gun fired that case. Especially when shot from something like an ATA or Silver Pigeon which may be one of several hundred produced as a single batch all to close tolerances. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wymberley Posted June 9, 2021 Report Share Posted June 9, 2021 13 minutes ago, Poor Shot said: I know they can be sourced from a brass rifle or pistol case, they generally have more complicated actions that leave more marks on the case and the case itself is made entirely of metal which retains these markings. I'm not so convinced that a fairly simple OU shotgun action and mainly plastic cases can retain enough unique markings to accurately determine which specific gun fired that case. Especially when shot from something like an ATA or Silver Pigeon which may be one of several hundred produced as a single batch all to close tolerances. Wouldn't those to phrases be classed as a 'contradiction in terms'? Very sorry, I couldn't resist it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GingerCat Posted June 9, 2021 Report Share Posted June 9, 2021 It's not a bad thing. The striker marks and extractor/ejector marks are unique and easily identifiable to an individual gun. The cases would be used to match an "unknown" to a "known stolen". The national ballistics intelligence service is where the cases will go should your gun/guns go missing and the cases used against those left behind at crime scenes. The yanks do it for all guns I think pre sale in some states, not sure why we don't do that here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vmaxphil Posted June 9, 2021 Report Share Posted June 9, 2021 The way browning/miroku firing pins chip they should be the easiest ones to identify 😁 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Westley Posted June 9, 2021 Report Share Posted June 9, 2021 (edited) IF they drop the Doctors report debacle, I will willingly oblige with a carrier bag full of fired cases ! Do they want Lead or 'Alternatives' ? 😊 Edited June 9, 2021 by Westley Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bottletopbill Posted June 9, 2021 Report Share Posted June 9, 2021 They will start to force this upon us the Met letter states shotgun and firearm. Marked the o/u with make of shotguns and top and bottom barrel on each spent cartridge case. As stated before how are going to match it to any rifle and seems a bit fare fetched to me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
guinty1 Posted June 9, 2021 Report Share Posted June 9, 2021 Gordon the answer to your question is NABIS, and the clue is in the first word which stands for National. Nabis deal with all things to do with the criminal use of firearms in the UK. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jan8p Posted June 10, 2021 Report Share Posted June 10, 2021 There's an evidential problem here I think, regardless if you can match the cartridges or not. So say there's been a crime, and they can link the cartridge from the crime to the cartridge you store, if this ends up in a court there's going to be all sorts of questions about the validity of the cartridge you hold from the defense. Was it stored securely, who had access, could it have been switched, when was the cartridge fired, all of which could be torn to shreds as you'll have fired it "sometime a few years ago" and stored it in a perishable food bag somewhere in your man drawer, having been chewed multiple times by the dog. Somewhat contrary to good evidence handling. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1066 Posted June 11, 2021 Report Share Posted June 11, 2021 On 09/06/2021 at 20:43, guinty1 said: Gordon the answer to your question is NABIS, and the clue is in the first word which stands for National. Nabis deal with all things to do with the criminal use of firearms in the UK. As far as I know NABIS is a self funding business set-up with their main customer being the various police forces. Mission creep and Empire building is in their blood, the scheme has been kicked around for years - by complying with these "requests" it soon becomes the norm. (2010) Police may want your spent cartridges for evidence - Shooting UK Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gordon R Posted June 11, 2021 Report Share Posted June 11, 2021 Quote So say there's been a crime, and they can link the cartridge from the crime to the cartridge you store, if this ends up in a court there's going to be all sorts of questions about the validity of the cartridge you hold from the defense. Was it stored securely, who had access, could it have been switched, when was the cartridge fired, all of which could be torn to shreds as you'll have fired it "sometime a few years ago" and stored it in a perishable food bag somewhere in your man drawer, having been chewed multiple times by the dog. It would need to be stored somewhere akin to your gun safe. it would need to be lockable, with no access by any other person. It could turn into a saga. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TIGHTCHOKE Posted June 11, 2021 Report Share Posted June 11, 2021 Perhaps if we all saved a spent cartridge from each barrel, labled them and sent them in to our FEOs en masse, FREE POST of course, this stupidity might stop? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
London Best Posted June 11, 2021 Report Share Posted June 11, 2021 (edited) 7 minutes ago, TIGHTCHOKE said: Perhaps if we all saved a spent cartridge from each barrel, labled them and sent them in to our FEOs en masse, FREE POST of course, this stupidity might stop? Already posted that! Edited June 11, 2021 by London Best Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scully Posted June 11, 2021 Report Share Posted June 11, 2021 Or you could simply just not do it. 🤷♂️ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
old'un Posted June 11, 2021 Report Share Posted June 11, 2021 I cannot see the point of this, unless I am missing something the only possible information they will get from a fired cartridge is the fact it was fired from your stolen gun/s, it will not tell them who stole your gun/s or who fired the shot. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
McSpredder Posted June 11, 2021 Report Share Posted June 11, 2021 On 09/06/2021 at 11:30, GingerCat said: The striker marks and extractor/ejector marks are unique and easily identifiable to an individual gun. ...... unless components have been replaced, or worn through normal use, or deliberately modified. How long would it take to alter the profile of the striker and ejector, by use of a file? Ten seconds, maybe? How long would it take to remove any tell-tale marks from the chamber walls by twirling emery cloth in the chuck of an electric drill? Perhaps the supporters of this scheme have assumed that criminals possess neither intelligence nor technical skills. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GingerCat Posted June 11, 2021 Report Share Posted June 11, 2021 From my experience they don't tend do much other than pull the trigger. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scully Posted June 11, 2021 Report Share Posted June 11, 2021 3 hours ago, old'un said: I cannot see the point of this, unless I am missing something the only possible information they will get from a fired cartridge is the fact it was fired from your stolen gun/s, it will not tell them who stole your gun/s or who fired the shot. And there we have it! Took a while but we got there in the end! 🙂 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
saddler Posted June 11, 2021 Report Share Posted June 11, 2021 On 09/06/2021 at 11:30, GingerCat said: The yanks do it for all guns I think pre sale in some states, not sure why we don't do that here. ....which states do this? Be interested in looking into this more, as some states have some very strange laws... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GingerCat Posted June 11, 2021 Report Share Posted June 11, 2021 13 minutes ago, saddler said: ....which states do this? Be interested in looking into this more, as some states have some very strange laws... Off the top of my head I can't be sure, new York seems to ring a bell. Its so guns used in crime can be identified quicker. I seem to remember it's pre sale they are test fired. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
saddler Posted June 11, 2021 Report Share Posted June 11, 2021 1 minute ago, GingerCat said: Off the top of my head I can't be sure, new York seems to ring a bell. Its so guns used in crime can be identified quicker. I seem to remember it's pre sale they are test fired. NY State or NY City? They seem to have quite a widely different set of rules, given the proximity.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GingerCat Posted June 11, 2021 Report Share Posted June 11, 2021 Just googled it, Maryland and new York states. Just for new ones. So the 260m odd current ones are not touched, which makes it pointless really. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1066 Posted June 12, 2021 Report Share Posted June 12, 2021 17 hours ago, saddler said: ....which states do this? Be interested in looking into this more, as some states have some very strange laws... For a bit of light reading and amusement it worth reading up on California's laws concerning "microstamping". The idea is that the firing pin and cylinder face is laser etched with the make and serial number of the firearm. The law was passed in, I think, 2010 for semi -auto rifles, they now want to extend it to all handguns. The consequence is - the manufacturers say the idea is totally unworkable and they will not comply. No new semi-auto rifles or new handguns are offered for sale in California... I believe Kamala Harris was/is a great supporter of the scheme. California bill aims to jumpstart 'microstamps' on handguns - ABC News (go.com) Microstamping - Wikipedia Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
saddler Posted June 12, 2021 Report Share Posted June 12, 2021 3 hours ago, 1066 said: For a bit of light reading and amusement it worth reading up on California's laws concerning "microstamping". The idea is that the firing pin and cylinder face is laser etched with the make and serial number of the firearm. The law was passed in, I think, 2010 for semi -auto rifles, they now want to extend it to all handguns. The consequence is - the manufacturers say the idea is totally unworkable and they will not comply. No new semi-auto rifles or new handguns are offered for sale in California... I believe Kamala Harris was/is a great supporter of the scheme. California bill aims to jumpstart 'microstamps' on handguns - ABC News (go.com) Microstamping - Wikipedia Ta will look into that Wonder if the same Democrat Party officials all signed off on Pres Obama's gun smuggling scheme Operation Fast & Furious which operated for about 5 years or so, and openly encouraged the smuggling of guns from the US into Mexico in order to supply the drug cartels? Resulted in the deaths of several US Gov employees, killed in gun battles with said cartels...as well as the deaths of a large number of Mexicans. The US Democrat run states/governments DO come up with some of the best ideas....mostly as lessons in how NOT to pass laws/run a city/state/country Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vince Green Posted June 12, 2021 Report Share Posted June 12, 2021 (edited) On 08/06/2021 at 16:49, enfieldspares said: Oh yes you can. It was proved in 1925 following the assassination of the then Sirdar of Egypt. The forensic evidence was "proved" by taking fired cases (and I think bullets) from three consecutively made Webley .32 pistols to show that even pistols made one immediately after the other made unique barrel and breech marks. A shotgun case will do less so as it is a lower pressure round but nevertheless will show an ejector/extractor "signature" and firing pin strike. https://www.nzedge.com/legends/sydney-smith/ https://www.firearmsid.com/A_historyoffirearmsID.htm http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/northern_ireland/1630752.stm The reverse is also true though (just for balance) a barrel that is rifled by a button takes on the scratches and imperfections of that button. And a button will do ten to twenty barrels. So twenty barrels are like clones of the first. case of a US Deputy identified as having fired a fatal stray shot in an accidental death was able to prove that several of his police collegues could also have fired the shot because the test shots from their service revolvers were also too close to call. Their dept had bought something like 40 revolvers as a batch. The case in law in the US now rests on the scratches that relate to the button not necessarily the barrel uniquely. Now imagine a small rural town in Nebraska. The gunsmith buys a job lot of S&W 686s and sells them to the town. Then somebody gets shot, Half the town could be convicted on the basis of barrel scratches. It has to be balanced with other evidence Edited June 12, 2021 by Vince Green Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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