Opened My Big Mouth - Again

[wymberley]

Seems that my farmer friend and I are as sick as each other. He is now recovering from an operation which was just in time to prevent an aneurysm from bursting. As he's laid up he's 'borrowed' a young lad from an adjourning farm to help out. Had a chat with him and found out that he's recently started shooting. Where he works, the fields are also quite small and he's asked for advice re fox with regard to rimfire use. I answered his specific question from my own experience, but take his point as before long some FEO might just be asking him the same question and I'd feel happier if the lad didn't have to rely completely on my say so. Problem is, I can't find anything definitive.

So what is the PW Massif's opinion - or documented one if such could be found -  as to the minimum energy requirement - assuming the usual variables are acceptable at the relevant time - to cleanly kill a fox with an engine room shot. We're not talking a few feet range where pin point accuracy compensates for lack of energy, but down range out to the limit of the calibre/cartridge capability.

[sam triple]

I was thinking you were both the other kind of “ sick” when you said he’d borrowed a young lad 🙈

[243deer]

Every rifle shooter has to set their own limits depending on their capabilities. My preference using a .22 with subs - as that is my usual ammo - would be a straight on head shot at a max of 35 yards. I would not take an engine room shot with a .22 - far too much chance of the fox running off injured, albeit it might be fatally, to endure a slow death. Even with a .17hmr I prefer close range head shots, up to 50 yards. If I am going foxing I take my deer rifle, 6.5 x 55 se, they do not get up as even with the bigger calibre I limit range to 100 yards. Missing a fox creates a problem for later so I would never encourage what I would consider 'hero' shots in one who is young and inexperienced.

[seeker]

Home Office hymn sheet sayeth at 13.25 ...

'.... 22 Rimfires are generally considered as having insufficient muzzle energy to be used against foxes in most circumstances. However, these could be suitable for use at short range by experienced persons, and may be permitted in certain situations such as around farm buildings or paddocks. '

But don't know the tune favoured by your local FEOs,

[Scully]

I seriously doubt any FEO would know, as there is no specific answer.
A .22lr will do it given the right circumstances. 
Overthinking matters and creating obstacles where none exist seem to be very popular on this forum. 
Tell him that if asked ( and I’ll show my bum in Burtons window if he is ) to just say any CF rifle within 100 yds, then he’s covered. 

[Walker570]

26 minutes ago, 243deer said:

Every rifle shooter has to set their own limits depending on their capabilities. My preference using a .22 with subs - as that is my usual ammo - would be a straight on head shot at a max of 35 yards. I would not take an engine room shot with a .22 - far too much chance of the fox running off injured, albeit it might be fatally, to endure a slow death. Even with a .17hmr I prefer close range head shots, up to 50 yards. If I am going foxing I take my deer rifle, 6.5 x 55 se, they do not get up as even with the bigger calibre I limit range to 100 yards. Missing a fox creates a problem for later so I would never encourage what I would consider 'hero' shots in one who is young and inexperienced.

Puts it in a nutshell. Do not say you definitely need a 6.5mm projectile but the old saying horses for courses.  In close quater combat e.g 100yrds max then a 17 Remington would do the job where background is a problem BUT in that case I would be putting up a couple of high seats to do the job.  All of my foxing these days is from high seats because the public have taken over the countryside.  I had someone walk down just inside a wiid last week , fortunately he/she had a torch and spoke to a dog so aware of the presence.   I have shot the occasional fox with a 22RF but usually in a back garden where utmost silence was required.

[wymberley]

Many thanks, All.

Picking the bones from the answers that would be 90 ftlbs at 35 yards with the LR subs or twice that at 50 yards with the HMR - but both head shots. As we're talking fox, chest shot and rimfire, I think he'll be OK with his preferred choice choice of 22 Mag  (approved for short range fox down here) especially as there's a very nice one which he might like that I've been shooting the last couple of weekends and which is up for grabs.

[London Best]

Don’t just think head shots. .22LR subs work really well on neck shots on fox. 
Chest shots work too but are not so reliable

[robbiep]

23 hours ago, seeker said:

Home Office hymn sheet sayeth at 13.25 ...

'.... 22 Rimfires are generally considered as having insufficient muzzle energy to be used against foxes in most circumstances. However, these could be suitable for use at short range by experienced persons, and may be permitted in certain situations such as around farm buildings or paddocks. '

But don't know the tune favoured by your local FEOs,

As Seeker has said, basically. The HO guidance says they 'COULD be suitable at short range by EXPERIENCED persons'.

I've dropped cubs out to 50 yards with a 22LR, but it's a last resort calibre for foxing as far as I'm concerned

 

[wymberley]

Could I respectfully point out to anyone replying to my post that whereas an LR is a rimfire all rimfires are not LRs

[Vince Green]

Up to the time I was about 30 i had never heard of a fox being shot with anything except a 22LR. During that time my uncle and his cronies must have shot about 90? My uncle didn't even use hollow points as the ammo was mostly Eley Club.

The larger calibres only came into the picture when .223 varmint rifles started appearing in the gun shops and people started looking for uses for them. It also coincided with night vision and the decline in the market for shot rabbits.

Since more people are killed in America with a .22 than probably the next three calibres added together its lethality is not in doubt

However the techniques are very different, close up is essencial,  and front on shots to the heart are whats needed. Side on shots to the heart don't work reliably, you may find there is quite a big front leg bone in your way.

Head shots are OK, if you know where to place them. Right at the very base of the ear.

I've been laughed at for saying the next bit on here before but I will say it again because its what i learned as a boy and I have always believed its true.

A foxes forehead slopes like a ramp and when they walk they often hold their head low to the ground.

A .22 bullet can be deflected by the shallow angle of the skull if shot from the front and the shot goes a bit high.

If the shot goes a bit low from a frontal shot it goes into the snout and causes a non fatal but very cruel injury  So front on shots are to be avoided unless you are really sure

 

Edited June 14, 2021 by Vince Green

[Gerry78]

On 13/06/2021 at 15:23, wymberley said:

Seems that my farmer friend and I are as sick as each other. He is now recovering from an operation which was just in time to prevent an aneurysm from bursting. As he's laid up he's 'borrowed' a young lad from an adjourning farm to help out. Had a chat with him and found out that he's recently started shooting. Where he works, the fields are also quite small and he's asked for advice re fox with regard to rimfire use. I answered his specific question from my own experience, but take his point as before long some FEO might just be asking him the same question and I'd feel happier if the lad didn't have to rely completely on my say so. Problem is, I can't find anything definitive.

So what is the PW Massif's opinion - or documented one if such could be found -  as to the minimum energy requirement - assuming the usual variables are acceptable at the relevant time - to cleanly kill a fox with an engine room shot. We're not talking a few feet range where pin point accuracy compensates for lack of energy, but down range out to the limit of the calibre/cartridge capability.

I think a FEO would only be asking him questions regarding calibres if he was putting he’s license in for variations etc Regarding 22lr or any other Rimfire he should just reply vermin control if he was asked Regarding rimfire for foxes 22lr 17hmr 22wmr all will put foxes down SENSIBLE RANGES my preference if I do come across a fox if I’m out with 22lr after rabbits I only would shoot them under 50 yards front neck shot 

[oldypigeonpopper]

Hello, 100s of foxes get shot with Rimfire rifles , maximum 50 yards is my reckoning, closer if you can do at night, go up to high velocity ammo, 

[WalkedUp]

I kill foxes with rimfire calibres regularly. Head shot when available but not exclusively. Up to 125m for 17hmr. I’ve never had a runner, not even a yard. In my book very I consider it a very humane process.

However everyone is different. If he is unsure of this then I suggest he is not quite ready to be let loose on his own. The best way to learn is through apprenticeship. 

[Longbower]

I use a WMR , using  30grain V Max .  Shot many up to 100yds , never seen one even 'twitch' after being hit.

As for .22  Long rifle, ask yourself , would you be happy to take a Sub sonic round to the head at 75 yards. No ?

Because you'd be dead !  Yet its said it wont kill a small dog(Fox) at the same distance ?    A high velocity .22LR round will go clean through a 3/4inch pine board

at 100 yds.  Are they underestimated ? I'll leave you to decide.

[Houseplant]

1 hour ago, Longbower said:

I use a WMR , using  30grain V Max .  Shot many up to 100yds , never seen one even 'twitch' after being hit.

As for .22  Long rifle, ask yourself , would you be happy to take a Sub sonic round to the head at 75 yards. No ?

Because you'd be dead !  Yet its said it wont kill a small dog(Fox) at the same distance ?    A high velocity .22LR round will go clean through a 3/4inch pine board

at 100 yds.  Are they underestimated ? I'll leave you to decide.

Lots of people use.22LR on deer, goats and even pigs over here. I'm sure that will cause collective convulsions, but it is a fact. Would I personally use it on large game? No, I want a margin of error.

[London Best]

7 hours ago, Longbower said:

I use a WMR , using  30grain V Max .  Shot many up to 100yds , never seen one even 'twitch' after being hit.

As for .22  Long rifle, ask yourself , would you be happy to take a Sub sonic round to the head at 75 yards. No ?

Because you'd be dead !  Yet its said it wont kill a small dog(Fox) at the same distance ?    A high velocity .22LR round will go clean through a 3/4inch pine board

at 100 yds.  Are they underestimated ? I'll leave you to decide.

Warning! Danger!
Common sense outbreak!

Edited June 15, 2021 by London Best

[wymberley]

8 hours ago, Longbower said:

I use a WMR , using  30grain V Max .  Shot many up to 100yds , never seen one even 'twitch' after being hit.

As for .22  Long rifle, ask yourself , would you be happy to take a Sub sonic round to the head at 75 yards. No ?

Because you'd be dead !  Yet its said it wont kill a small dog(Fox) at the same distance ?    A high velocity .22LR round will go clean through a 3/4inch pine board

at 100 yds.  Are they underestimated ? I'll leave you to decide.

6 hours ago, Houseplant said:

Lots of people use.22LR on deer, goats and even pigs over here. I'm sure that will cause collective convulsions, but it is a fact. Would I personally use it on large game? No, I want a margin of error.

Thank you, Both.

I have advised the lad accordingly