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42 minutes ago, Gordon R said:

Certainly not zipdog.

To be fair to Zipdog, Bitcoin (and I have none, and have never had any Crypto coins or NFT's of any sort as I don't understand where the underlying value lies) has dropped maybe 50% (from circa $67K to $28K today, roughly the same as its Dec 2020 price), but I read that another called Luna (or Terra Luna) has lost 98% of it's value. 

When Zipdog last posted in July 2021, Bitcoin was around $33K.

Edited by JohnfromUK
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There is the old story about the start of the great depression where people in a club had stuck their "worthless" share certificates to a wall in a gentlemans club in New York - two years later they were there trying to unstick them!!

Although there is the other one from my own personal experience

I worked for Engergis but left before the sharesave I was in matured. About 18 months later I bought 5000 shares at 2p as share - when I was there it was north of £40

I bought the shares because I knew the central business was good - I ran the team that ran the systems for the billing so knew the figures - however the company went "private" in an underhand deal with the government. It was then sold to Calamity and Witless - which then all ended up under Vodafone....

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There was a man on BBC who seemed to know what he was talking about. He explained very well how crypto currencies worked (or rather how they don't work)

Its basically flim flam, but as long as enough people still believe the flim flam it works. When they stop believing the flim flam then its in trouble.

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6 minutes ago, Vince Green said:

There was a man on BBC who seemed to know what he was talking about. He explained very well how crypto currencies worked (or rather how they don't work)

Its basically flim flam, but as long as enough people still believe the flim flam it works. When they stop believing the flim flam then its in trouble.

It's just the latest version of the old pyramid scam!

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Cryptos only work if people think they work and their holding / use is widespread.

The Chinese government have banned Bitcoin and that’s a large chunk of the commercial world where Bitcoin can’t work and thus is of no real value.

I still think Bitcoin has legs to some extent but it’s not for me. 

As for NFTs they were the biggest and most obvious ‘emperors new clothes’ load of nonsense and anyone who bought in and held an NFT is now well and truly going to take a bath.

3 minutes ago, JohnfromUK said:

Yes, that's rather how I see it - no underlying value.

But that applies to every modern currency that isn’t glued to a gold standard. 

 

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1 hour ago, Mungler said:

But that applies to every modern currency that isn’t glued to a gold standard. 

 

Yes, although a 'standard' currency isn't where many individuals invest (at least directly).  Many investments are actuallyb made in having a share of a business, asset, commodity, resource etc. where there is an underlying 'value' (in most cases).  I can understand that concept - and so I am happy to make my investments there.  Sany may also have a dividend/rent as a further return.  For me the 'currency' is just the measure of the transaction, not the actual investment.  Traditional 'mainstream' currencies like US dollars, Pounds, Euros are likely only to fluctuate against one another relatively slowly and 'gently'.

Bitcoin/NFT etc. are only worth what someone will pay you in another 'currency'.  If everyone wants Bitcoins and they are in short supply - bingo.  However, if no one wants them, they are worthless - possibly genuinely utterly worthless.

I have nothing against Bitcoin other than 'it's not for me', but it is a VERY high risk volatile investment and should be clearly viewed as such.  Those (and there must have been some for the price to be up there) who were buying in at $50K and more may have a long wait to see their money back - if ever.  By contrast, those who bought at say $10K (which would be pre July 2020) and then followed the old rule of "selling half when it doubles" sold half at $20K to recover their original investment - and anything they now have is all profit.

Edited by JohnfromUK
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Like a lot of people, I regard bitcoin etc as a pyramid scheme as there is no intrinsic value or based on anything other than supply and demand speculation.

However can anyone explain to me why it didn’t all collapse years ago and is still going especially as there are now similar crypto currencies all competing for the same speculative market?

 

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8 hours ago, Sciurus said:

Like a lot of people, I regard bitcoin etc as a pyramid scheme as there is no intrinsic value or based on anything other than supply and demand speculation.

However can anyone explain to me why it didn’t all collapse years ago and is still going especially as there are now similar crypto currencies all competing for the same speculative market?

Only because enough people believe in it and literally buy in to the concept!

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1 hour ago, TIGHTCHOKE said:

Only because enough people believe in it and literally buy in to the concept!

Agreed.  As long as 'new money' is coming in (which will be a mix of more people and existing 'investors' increasing their holdings), the limited supply (hard 'work' to mine and ultimately 'capped' with Bitcoin) will cause the price to be driven up.

Once sufficient numbers of people start getting worried and withdrawing money to move (perhaps to what they thing is a safer haven) elsewhere, or simply take profit - the price will fall as there will be more sellers than buyers.  The dropping price will then risk worrying more - who also want to sell - and a collapse can occur.

In simple engineering terms - it is a positive feedback system - and such systems are fundamentally unstable.

More traditional investments that have a perceived 'underlying value' such as shares, property tend to fine that more buyers appear when the price drops enough as the new buyers recognise the underlying value.

Just my simple interpretation.

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My Mrs invested £20 in bitcoin after Paypal made it easy to buy and I had to suffer daily reports of how much profit she had 'made', things are now happily quiet again.

Meanwhile the gold that I buy her in various forms every birthday and Christmas has become a decent little nest egg over the years with the bonus that the items she wears daily she enjoys.

A cashless society will be a very sad place in some ways some examples of which that have not so far been mentioned are

The demise of the tooth fairy

No more notes enclosed in birthday and Christmas cards from relations

Village fetes 

Church collections 

 

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12 minutes ago, 243deer said:

My Mrs invested £20 in bitcoin after Paypal made it easy to buy and I had to suffer daily reports of how much profit she had 'made', things are now happily quiet again.

Meanwhile the gold that I buy her in various forms every birthday and Christmas has become a decent little nest egg over the years with the bonus that the items she wears daily she enjoys.

A cashless society will be a very sad place in some ways some examples of which that have not so far been mentioned are

The demise of the tooth fairy

No more notes enclosed in birthday and Christmas cards from relations

Village fetes 

Church collections 

 

NOOOOOO not the tooth fairy, I've only got a few teeth left but am looking forward to my new found wealth after her visit! 

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Back on topic me and some lads we’re down at the shooting show last Saturday great show first time for me picked up some bits and pieces went for a coffee at the van opposite the restaurant between the two halls it had a sign up card only so got 2 coffees just over £6 Tuesday wife asked what I had ordered on Uber eats my reply nothing only used card for 2 coffees well there’s a payment pending on our account for £22 so notifying the bank requesting an investigation so waiting to hear so Iam not going to be doing that again 

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13 hours ago, Sciurus said:

Like a lot of people, I regard bitcoin etc as a pyramid scheme as there is no intrinsic value or based on anything other than supply and demand speculation.

However can anyone explain to me why it didn’t all collapse years ago and is still going especially as there are now similar crypto currencies all competing for the same speculative market?

 

"everybody" knows you can make money out of bitcoin. That's the story that keeps getting rammed down people's throats. Adverts in the papers, adverts on the train etc

You may wonder why so many people are so very keen to keep pushing the narrative? answer that one and see it for what it really is

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At the start of Covid everybody wanted paid by card only so the cashiers didnt have to touch money , But now nearly 3 years down the line all the carry out shops here are cash only > i reckon once they pay there suppliers they can fiddle the tax man , We dont sell much now ! try doing that in a cashless society 

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On 01/07/2021 at 10:20, zipdog said:

They can and will stop cash. Like it or not, cash is on its way out and by 2030 cash will be a thing of the past. 

Yep.

On 01/07/2021 at 10:33, discobob said:

I heard of a plumber - he was investigated - his books were clean - they still did him though. His Tesco Clubcard points showed transactions for when there was no corresponding cash withdrawals or card payments from the bank - his cash jobs weren't going through the books and he was using the cash to live one

no cash = no fiddles. 

On 02/07/2021 at 09:57, udderlyoffroad said:

But of course you've turned your mobile phone off and put it in a faraday cage before you go out shopping?  Or better yet, left it at home?

Whilst the  "If you have nothing to hide, you have nothing to fear" line is usually total asinine nonsense; to me it is a case of pick your battles.

So 'they' know I do my weekly shop at a choice of one or 2 supermarkets, usually on a Thursday.  Big woop.

Most of my other spending is online for reasons general misanthropy, better choice and value and time saving.  So there's a 'paper trail' anyway.

 

Huh?  Every 'service' transaction gives you the option to add a 'gratuity'.

Haven't taken a traditional taxi for quite a while, but Ubers (minicabs) always give you the option to add a tip.

 

 

On 02/07/2021 at 17:17, Cosmicblue said:

Cash is dying...the evidence is everywhere:

1) Banks are closing high street branches everywhere - here in Warwick which isn't exactly the back of beyond, 20 years ago we had branches of Barclays, Lloyds, Nat West, Sainsburys and the Coventry Building society, all with cashpoint terminals.   The Coventry and Sainsburys remain and the Natwest terminal is still there but not the bank two out of the five have gone....the local Tesco superstore had three machines and now has one.

2) Businesses have become less keen to hand cash since C19, and prefer contactless payments, lower infection risk.

3) Businesses that go cashless don't have to worry about till floats, having sufficient change, the security of staff taking money to bank, theft or bank charges for paying cheques in.

4) The final nail in the coffin will be a charge for using a cashpoint machine to withdraw cash - those machines are expensive, needs data comms and power as well as secure delivery service for the cash itself, all of which has to be paid for.

 

This is mostly what will kill cash.  Cash is just a pain.  There's far to many things against it.  Security risks, fiddles, handling the stuff,  losses through counterfeit money. ect, ect.  About the only thing I  pay with cash is my weekly rifle club subs. Since tap and go cash isn't used.  Eventually you won't be able to say I'll  shop elsewhere because you won't be able to find anywhere that takes cash for stuff that you want to buy.   The cost of dealing with cash will be prohibitive.   Who would have thought that supermarkets would have gone scan as you go,, no tills,,  pay by tap and go.  This means more checkouts in a given space and no staff needed on tills.  The less belt checkouts = more floor space for stock.  The fewer shops that take cash = the higher risk of being rolled over for the takings.  Therefore if you've got a load of cash,,  where did it come from.?  theft, fiddles,  drugs, money laundering.?  And if you have got any random cash to spend, what are you going to do with it.?

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1 hour ago, Minky said:

Yep.

no cash = no fiddles. 

 

This is mostly what will kill cash.  Cash is just a pain.  There's far to many things against it.  Security risks, fiddles, handling the stuff,  losses through counterfeit money. ect, ect.  About the only thing I  pay with cash is my weekly rifle club subs. Since tap and go cash isn't used.  Eventually you won't be able to say I'll  shop elsewhere because you won't be able to find anywhere that takes cash for stuff that you want to buy.   The cost of dealing with cash will be prohibitive.   Who would have thought that supermarkets would have gone scan as you go,, no tills,,  pay by tap and go.  This means more checkouts in a given space and no staff needed on tills.  The less belt checkouts = more floor space for stock.  The fewer shops that take cash = the higher risk of being rolled over for the takings.  Therefore if you've got a load of cash,,  where did it come from.?  theft, fiddles,  drugs, money laundering.?  And if you have got any random cash to spend, what are you going to do with it.?

And sod all the job losses :good:

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