16g hammer gun Ebrall of Shrewsbury

[Benthejockey]

I'm looking after some shotguns for a farmer whilst he sorts his license out. There's 4 guns a Lincoln ou which is dirty and a bit old but pretty much brand new, a knackered 12g hammer gun that wants scrapping, a baikal single shot 12g that's as you can imagine and a 16g sbs hammer gun with Damascus barrels. It's the 16 I've fallen in love with a little bit. He'll almost certainly give it to me if I ask him for it BUT it's in a bit of a rough state. It's dirty, there's light rust on the exterior of the barrels, there's pitting in the barrels and I'm not a gun cleaning fanatic but the Chambers are dirtier than a tramps pants. On the positive side its a thing of great beauty under all the grime. Its tight as a tiger. And it's made by Ebrall and co or Ebrall and son of Shrewsbury which means it was made locally made and adds to the fascination. I would love to acquire said beauty but only if I can make it shootable. Has anyone got any ideas about what I'd need to get done and what sort of costs I'd be looking at .

[Rob85]

33 minutes ago, Benthejockey said:

I'm looking after some shotguns for a farmer whilst he sorts his license out. There's 4 guns a Lincoln ou which is dirty and a bit old but pretty much brand new, a knackered 12g hammer gun that wants scrapping, a baikal single shot 12g that's as you can imagine and a 16g sbs hammer gun with Damascus barrels. It's the 16 I've fallen in love with a little bit. He'll almost certainly give it to me if I ask him for it BUT it's in a bit of a rough state. It's dirty, there's light rust on the exterior of the barrels, there's pitting in the barrels and I'm not a gun cleaning fanatic but the Chambers are dirtier than a tramps pants. On the positive side its a thing of great beauty under all the grime. Its tight as a tiger. And it's made by Ebrall and co or Ebrall and son of Shrewsbury which means it was made locally made and adds to the fascination. I would love to acquire said beauty but only if I can make it shootable. Has anyone got any ideas about what I'd need to get done and what sort of costs I'd be looking at and what it would be worth if I got it tidied to see whether cost vs value makes it worth while.

If you have fallen in love with it then don't worry about market value, that only matters if you intend to sell. start off by getting the barrels thoroughly cleaned then checked over to make sure they are in proof, if you can live with the internal pitting then make sure the rest of it  is in working order, clean and enjoy. 

The light rust on the outside might tidy up with a vigorous rub with an oily cloth.

Any pictures?

[oldypigeonpopper]

Hello, sounds a nice 16, you could clean inside the barrels you self, oily bronze brush on a drill, then get check by gunsmith, if ok send to barrel blacker on here, the action might clean up with white spirit then oily rag, leave stock if condition ok, put up a few photos, 

[bruno22rf]

Became Ebrall bros in 1894 so your gun must pre date that, most likely a trade gun built in Brum and maybe supplied to order. Value depends on quality of the Damascus amongst other things such as wood grade etc. Is it NP? Pics of proof marks etc under the tubes should give more details.

[benbobailey]

3 hours ago, Benthejockey said:

I'm looking after some shotguns for a farmer whilst he sorts his license out. There's 4 guns a Lincoln ou which is dirty and a bit old but pretty much brand new, a knackered 12g hammer gun that wants scrapping, a baikal single shot 12g that's as you can imagine and a 16g sbs hammer gun with Damascus barrels. It's the 16 I've fallen in love with a little bit. He'll almost certainly give it to me if I ask him for it BUT it's in a bit of a rough state. It's dirty, there's light rust on the exterior of the barrels, there's pitting in the barrels and I'm not a gun cleaning fanatic but the Chambers are dirtier than a tramps pants. On the positive side its a thing of great beauty under all the grime. Its tight as a tiger. And it's made by Ebrall and co or Ebrall and son of Shrewsbury which means it was made locally made and adds to the fascination. I would love to acquire said beauty but only if I can make it shootable. Has anyone got any ideas about what I'd need to get done and what sort of costs I'd be looking at .

Hello, this project could easily become a bottomless money pit unfortunately, well in excess of final value. Regards

[Dave at kelton]

Forget the value bit as irrelevant if it’s going to cost you nowt and you will keep it. Make the trip down the motorway to Birmingham Price Street and drop it in with Benjamin Wild or Cruxtons and get it assessed with costs. Make an appointment and spend whatever time is needed to discuss what you want done.

[benbobailey]

4 hours ago, Benthejockey said:

I'm looking after some shotguns for a farmer whilst he sorts his license out. There's 4 guns a Lincoln ou which is dirty and a bit old but pretty much brand new, a knackered 12g hammer gun that wants scrapping, a baikal single shot 12g that's as you can imagine and a 16g sbs hammer gun with Damascus barrels. It's the 16 I've fallen in love with a little bit. He'll almost certainly give it to me if I ask him for it BUT it's in a bit of a rough state. It's dirty, there's light rust on the exterior of the barrels, there's pitting in the barrels and I'm not a gun cleaning fanatic but the Chambers are dirtier than a tramps pants. On the positive side its a thing of great beauty under all the grime. Its tight as a tiger. And it's made by Ebrall and co or Ebrall and son of Shrewsbury which means it was made locally made and adds to the fascination. I would love to acquire said beauty but only if I can make it shootable. Has anyone got any ideas about what I'd need to get done and what sort of costs I'd be looking at .

Hello again, Has the gun been nitro proofed? If so, is it still in proof? Is the top lever operating properly and are all internal springs (mainspring etc) and parts in good condition and working order? Are both triggers working properly? Are both hammers secure and operating correctly? How deep are internal and external pits ( important safety)? Is the barrel wall thickness ok? Is the gun tight on face? Does the forend fit securely? Are there any cracks, repairs etc in woodwork? Are all pins etc located properly and in good condition? Is the gun anywhere near fitting you to use well ( cast off/on, too long, too short) ? Some of the questions I would think may need addressing. Regards.

Edited August 3, 2021 by benbobailey

[Benthejockey]

8 hours ago, Rob85 said:

If you have fallen in love with it then don't worry about market value, that only matters if you intend to sell. start off by getting the barrels thoroughly cleaned then checked over to make sure they are in proof, if you can live with the internal pitting then make sure the rest of it  is in working order, clean and enjoy. 

The light rust on the outside might tidy up with a vigorous rub with an oily cloth.

Any pictures?

I'll take some photos tomorrow. I dont object to the pits as long as they're in proof. I'm guessing it's nitro proof but I'll have to take it apart and have a look at the proof marks. I'd love it to be shootable. I wouldn't use it all the time but if @bruno22rfis right and it's nearly 130 years old then I'd love to just break it out for special occasions. 

[holloway]

12 minutes ago, Benthejockey said:

I'll take some photos tomorrow. I dont object to the pits as long as they're in proof. I'm guessing it's nitro proof but I'll have to take it apart and have a look at the proof marks. I'd love it to be shootable. I wouldn't use it all the time but if @bruno22rfis right and it's nearly 130 years old then I'd love to just break it out for special occasions. 

Just get a reputable gunsmith to assess it and give a professional opinion,I had a nice 10 ga WCScott that had pitted tubes there was sufficient wall thickness to have them lapped and it didn't cost silly money ,.

[Benthejockey]

4 minutes ago, holloway said:

Just get a reputable gunsmith to assess it and give a professional opinion,I had a nice 10 ga WCScott that had pitted tubes there was sufficient wall thickness to have them lapped and it didn't cost silly money ,.

I've got to go to town tomorrow so I might throw it in the truck and see if Midlands gun services will look at it. 

[bruno22rf]

15 hours ago, benbobailey said:

Hello, this project could easily become a bottomless money pit unfortunately, well in excess of final value. Regards

Agreed if you look at it in cold hard financial terms, but guns like this can give pleasure well beyond their actual monetary value, the men that built these are long gone, they used their manual skills to build guns that were the best you could buy in the world in real terms and worked during the heyday of the British gun making period. I have a couple of pre 1900 SxS's Hammer Guns that are, most likely virtually scrap in most modern eyes, buy I get far more pleasure dropping a pigeon with one than I do with my Miroku. Gun below cost me £150 around 5 years ago.

Edited August 4, 2021 by bruno22rf

[benbobailey]

41 minutes ago, bruno22rf said:

Agreed if you look at it in cold hard financial terms, but guns like this can give pleasure well beyond their actual monetary value, the men that built these are long gone, they used their manual skills to build guns that were the best you could buy in the world in real terms and worked during the heyday of the British gun making period. I have a couple of pre 1900 SxS's Hammer Guns that are, most likely virtually scrap in most modern eyes, buy I get far more pleasure dropping a pigeon with one than I do with my Miroku. Gun below cost me £150 around 5 years ago.

Bruno22rf, nice looking gun and I fully agree about the pleasure obtained from older British guns. No arguement there! However, I was merely making it clear to the poster that there is every chance that the cost for a restoration and to make this gun safe to use, could become very expensive indeed. Also, the gun trade are not usually known for quick turnaround and this wouldn't be a quick clean up job. I feel it best to inform the poster of potential downsides.  As a British gun fan,I've been there and done it, too often! Regards

[Benthejockey]

Here's some pictures. You can just about make out the Damascus swirl in the close up. 

I'm well aware it could turn into a money pit and I wouldn't allow that to happen, I don't even own it yet and if it's only going to he fit to prop doors open then I'll not bother asking about keeping it.

[Benthejockey]

Unfortunately it's only fit for using to hammer nails in. It's out of proof and beyond economical repair.

[bruno22rf]

1875-1887, how do you know it's out of proof?

[Benthejockey]

3 hours ago, bruno22rf said:

1875-1887, how do you know it's out of proof?

I took it to West Midlands guns and he had a look at it for me. I hadn't seen it myself but there's a very thin gap where it doesn't lock up properly and when it's closed you can see daylight through it of you hold it up to the light. I'm a bit disappointed really. It would have been a lovely bit of history to play with.

[Velocette]

I always thought that a thou or two gap between the water table and the flats was acceptable providing its still on the face.

[Benthejockey]

55 minutes ago, Velocette said:

I always thought that a thou or two gap between the water table and the flats was acceptable providing its still on the face.

🤷‍♂️ i don't know enough about it to say whether it's right or wrong. It feels like it locks up tight but I'm not a gun Smith. It's a shame but I won't lose any sleep over it really it hasn't cost me anything other than 10 minutes of my time.

[bruno22rf]

Nothing that cannot be sorted by a competent gunsmith, far too many historic guns are being scrapped because nobody is willing to spend a few quid on them, I assume there is a little side to side movement on the tubes when the gun is closed which would indicate that the gun has simply worn loose, it can be fixed relatively easily, as long as the barrels are not like a ploughed field inside the rest is fixable.

[enfieldspares]

Some hard advice which i hope is taken in the spirit in which it is intended.

1) No gun will ever repay a lost wrist or a blind eye.

2) Have it checked by a GOOD gunsmith to certify that it the barrels are safe to you...and bystanders...AND THAT THE RIBS ARE ALSO TIGHT AND SECURE. That means what it says. A GOOD gunsmith. Not a man that owns a shop or shooting ground who sells guns as a business.

3)Check when doing 2) that it is also safe for the cartridges you intend to use through it. That's to say chamber length and if nitro or blackpowder.

3) If 2) and 3) is stated as OK then the Proof Act is an irrelevance. And the Proof Act does not apply to any gun that is given.

5)If spending money be aware that anything that involves the gun being sent to re-proof may well be destructive to the gun. Thus read 2), 3) and 4) again!

Edited August 4, 2021 by enfieldspares

[London Best]

Good advice from enfieldspares.

[Benthejockey]

@bruno22rfit's beautiful and I would love to restore it but I think its well beyond my means to get it fixed and that is a bit upsetting but apart from 10 mins of my time it hasn't cost me anything and I don't even own it and there's no guarantee he'd even let me have it.

@enfieldsparesI had no intention of shooting it without getting it looked over and after having it looked over today I don't want to shoot it. In the words of the chap today "it'll go bang I guarantee that it's just whether it's the whole gun that goes and takes your face with it". If it had been even as much as £500 to get it to a shootable condition I'd have been happy to take the risk of it becoming a pipe bomb in the proof house. Don't get me wrong id be p'd off if they blew it up but at least id still have my good looks and fingers!

[bruno22rf]

Only way to find out is to have the bores measured, the Gunsmith that I use wouldn't even charge for such a service, it's no good just looking at it-it needs to be measured.

[enfieldspares]

15 minutes ago, bruno22rf said:

Only way to find out is to have the bores measured, the Gunsmith that I use wouldn't even charge for such a service, it's no good just looking at it-it needs to be measured.

This. Get the bores measured AND the barrel thickness. If the supposed "gunsmith" can't measure BOTH these measurements then fond another gunsmith that can and knows how to do so properly referencing the one to its effect on the other.

Proof in the UK is not a measure of safety. It is merely a measure of the internal dimension of the barrels still being within 10 thousandths of an inch of when the gun was originally stamped at the Proof House.

Why isn't it a measure of safety?

Because it makes no reference to the actual thickness of the barrel walls. Thus an old Greener GP with barrels as thick as gas pipes may well be "out of proof" but safe as there is still a lot of barrel thickness. Yet a Boss sidelock may well be "in proof" yet the barrel thickness (which even when new was quite thin) may if they have been struck off externally be near to nothing at all. 

Edited August 4, 2021 by enfieldspares

[wabbitbosher]

On 03/08/2021 at 16:55, Dave at kelton said:

Forget the value bit as irrelevant if it’s going to cost you nowt and you will keep it. Make the trip down the motorway to Birmingham Price Street and drop it in with Benjamin Wild or Cruxtons and get it assessed with costs. Make an appointment and spend whatever time is needed to discuss what you want done.

Sadly Benjamin wild is gone forever 😢