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When does a shotgun become style over substance?


Shadowchaser
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If you look at the world of competition shooting none of the bigger shoots ever seems to get won by the ‘budget’ gun makers. I often read anecdotal forum posts of the farmer turning up to the shoot with his Baikal held together with twine beating the skeet vest and expensive gun brigade, just I’ve never seen it at any of the registered shoots or big shoots.

But I have seen big shoots won by entry level Miroku or Beretta’s and not all of them are sponsored, they have chosen and bought the gun, so that’s where I guess the change happens for whatever reason.

When I first started, me and my friend were shooting at least 300 sometimes more clays a week, he had a new Lanber and I had a 2nd hand Browning Citori 325. The Lanber shot great, I thought maybe I should have gone for one, however, just after a year and a half of this amount of shooting the Lanber was like a piece of old rope and my Browning was still as tight as the day I first shot it.

If he had just shot a few clays a month then the Lanber would have been a great gun, he swapped it for a Beretta 682 gold e and never looked back.

 

But money doesn’t always buy reliability seen enough issues with Perazzi and Krieghoff to know that.

My DT10 back when it was newish gun was my limit between price and value closely followed by my Caesar Guerini that replaced it.

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It is a question to which everyone will have a different answer. 

Personally, I love the looks of a sidelock action (on o/u as well as s/s) and I love a fancy 'flame effect' or 'burl' show of wood.  But practically, sidelocks are less reliable and probably more expensive to make and repair, have no material operational advantages, and arguably make a less strong gun.  Fancy wood may look nice, but has probably a higher risk of cracking, especially if the swirls in the grain extend into the thinner section of the hand.

I like a nice very fine 'rose and scroll' engraving (as sometimes known as 'Purdey Style'), but dislike game scenes and any gold inlay other than the word "SAFE" for the safety catch, a small cocked indicator (like a line on the tumbler pivot), and a number 1 or 2 on paired guns.

One well known 'expert' on s/s guns used to say that a plain well made Anson & Deeley balanced and handled better than almost any other gun at any price.

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2 hours ago, timps said:

If you look at the world of competition shooting none of the bigger shoots ever seems to get won by the ‘budget’ gun makers. I often read anecdotal forum posts of the farmer turning up to the shoot with his Baikal held together with twine beating the skeet vest and expensive gun brigade, just I’ve never seen it at any of the registered shoots or big shoots.

But I have seen big shoots won by entry level Miroku or Beretta’s and not all of them are sponsored, they have chosen and bought the gun, so that’s where I guess the change happens for whatever reason.

When I first started, me and my friend were shooting at least 300 sometimes more clays a week, he had a new Lanber and I had a 2nd hand Browning Citori 325. The Lanber shot great, I thought maybe I should have gone for one, however, just after a year and a half of this amount of shooting the Lanber was like a piece of old rope and my Browning was still as tight as the day I first shot it.

If he had just shot a few clays a month then the Lanber would have been a great gun, he swapped it for a Beretta 682 gold e and never looked back.

 

But money doesn’t always buy reliability seen enough issues with Perazzi and Krieghoff to know that.

My DT10 back when it was newish gun was my limit between price and value closely followed by my Caesar Guerini that replaced it.

Your mate must have bought a poor lanber, mine was 2nd hand when I got it. It did 2-400 clays a week for about 3 years, maybe 4 as both I and the wife shot it. 15 years on its still going and has not degraded in anyway. I keep meaning to service it and I will, some day. Currently it's my pigeon gun and gets used more than my beretta. 

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4 hours ago, Nuke said:

Yes, better workmanship on the inside makes a higher grade a more reliable gun.

In principle that should be correct, but can anyone produce actual data to show that Browning Grade 1 models fail more frequently than the Grade 6 equivalent when used under similar conditions?  

 

3 hours ago, Old farrier said:

I can definitely tell the difference between my low grade eell and my high grade SO6 with my eyes shut and gloves on and certainly when shooting them the different is noticeable

So could almost anybody, because those two guns are of markedly different design, but I was wondering how many people would be able to tell a basic silver Pigeon from its EELL equivalent if they couldn't see the side-plates, engraving, etc.

3 hours ago, London Best said:

With that example you are only comparing different grades of the makers cheapest, entry level model.

Yes, that EELL version of the Beretta’s cheapest entry level model is advertised at less than nine thousand pounds, which might probably seems a trifling sum to some people.   Thank you for putting me in my place, I feel duly chastened.

 

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1 hour ago, GingerCat said:

Your mate must have bought a poor lanber, mine was 2nd hand when I got it. It did 2-400 clays a week for about 3 years, maybe 4 as both I and the wife shot it. 15 years on its still going and has not degraded in anyway. I keep meaning to service it and I will, some day. Currently it's my pigeon gun and gets used more than my beretta. 

Maybe who knows, 1 gun doesn’t condemn or make the whole brand that’s for sure but it definitely put us both off the brand. I guess by the fate of Lanber  unfortunately others felt like us. 
I’m glad yours wasn’t like my mates. 

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19 minutes ago, McSpredder said:

 

 

 

Yes, that EELL version of the Beretta’s cheapest entry level model is advertised at less than nine thousand pounds, which might probably seems a trifling sum to some people.   Thank you for putting me in my place, I feel duly chastened.

 

 

No need to take that attitude.
The EELL version of the Silver Pigeon is a nice thing, a very pretty gun. 
But so many people on here refer to the Silver Pigeon as a ‘high grade gun’ and forget (or don’t know) that it is the entry level model.

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53 minutes ago, McSpredder said:

In principle that should be correct, but can anyone produce actual data to show that Browning Grade 1 models fail more frequently than the Grade 6 equivalent when used under similar conditions?  

Ask your local gun shop whats the main reason they do work on the different grades and you will know.

Or open a couple of them up and hava a look for yourself. 

/Markus

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41 minutes ago, McSpredder said:

 

In principle that should be correct, but can anyone produce actual data to show that Browning Grade 1 models fail more frequently than the Grade 6 equivalent when used under similar conditions?  

 

So could almost anybody, because those two guns are of markedly different design, but I was wondering how many people would be able to tell a basic silver Pigeon from its EELL equivalent if they couldn't see the side-plates, engraving, etc.

 

 

Yes, that EELL version of the Beretta’s cheapest entry level model is advertised at less than nine thousand pounds, which might probably seems a trifling sum to some people.   Thank you for putting me in my place, I feel duly chastened.

 

 

The thing is about style and substance and where the changes come suttle things like Ballance trigger pull ease of operating the safety catch the gun opening and staying open without closing so you can’t get a cartridge in the ejectors opening and actually ejecting the empty cases a pleasure to use in all weathers 

all of this is before looks engraving and fancy wood 

then there’s personal like and dislike 

for the record I bought my EELL new it was a fortune £1200 

 

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1 hour ago, London Best said:

No need to take that attitude.
The EELL version of the Silver Pigeon is a nice thing, a very pretty gun. 
But so many people on here refer to the Silver Pigeon as a ‘high grade gun’ and forget (or don’t know) that it is the entry level model.

I don't recall anyone referring to a Silver Pigeon on here as a 'high grade gun' 

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On the point about reliability, I have used shotguns for over forty years. I do not shoot many thousands of cartridges a year probably 2-3 thousand on everything. I have owned and shot everything from Baikal to Holland and Purdey in the field. I include side locks, boxlocks, sxs, ou and percussion. I have only ever had two failures in the field. An 1880 Purdey hammer top lever spring and an AYA 25 barrel bulged because the choke cones were cut too steeply. I have had loose fore end on Caesar Guerini that was resolved on a full service.

I have been lucky to both shoot with what many would regard as the best and worst of the gun makers art. The best handling by far have been the Holland, Purdey and currently Dickson. In terms of reliability almost nothing to choose between them despite price and respective age. 

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23 minutes ago, Dave at kelton said:

I have used shotguns for over forty years. I do not shoot many thousands of cartridges a year probably 2-3 thousand on everything.

I am probably very much the same, but I have had some issues on reliability (and by that I mean actual failure to operate correctly rather than something requiring remedial work (e.g. tightening, loose ribs), but not preventing normal use);

  • Cracked firing pins - 2 times, once on AyA No 1 and once on a William Powell sidelock - both caused repeated misfires
  • Broken mainspring - 3 times - AyA No 1 (part broken, but still usable once broken part removed) and 2 different Merkels - complete failure of one barrel in one cases, and crack detected by gunsmith in the other case, so technically not yet failed!)
  • Failure to fire/misfire - Beretta SO - caused by tumbler dragging on woodwork - annoyingly took several visits to locate and fix as it only happened after a good soaking!
  • AyA Senior - unknown cause occasional misfire/lightstrike - resolved by ASI - not quite sure what caused this, but it was resolved easily and cheaply.

In addition, I have had an ejector guide pin break on a Powell (remained usable), firing pins dragging on an AyA Yeoman (making it hard to open, but usable) - plus sundry lifted ribs, and general 'maintenance' adjustments.  However - all of my guns are at least 25 years old - and some well over 100 years old.  They also get used in all weathers.

 

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5 hours ago, Gunman said:

When it stops looking like a shotgun and starts to look a toy out of Rambo film . 

Mmmm, not really. The sort of shotguns you would find in a Rambo film are 100% functional with no styling added, basically because they’re military type weapons designed for killing other human beings. 
Your basic shotgun used for sporting purposes, is just that, a basic shotgun, but mans vanity means there are many totally unnecessary embellishments added to many shotguns purely in the name of style or fashion, to massage ones ego, and just as many willing to provide those embellishments for a substantial fee. 
Embellishments which add nothing to the function of a shotgun include high grade or exhibition grade wood, precious metal inlays, bespoke engraving, coloured engraving, personalised engraving and no doubt other things I haven’t thought of. 
But you know all this already. 🙂

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I've had some decent guns over my 40 years of clay shooting.  Am also lucky enough to buy any premium gun if i wanted to.

But i have just bought a Beretta 687 Silver pigeon sporter 3 and love it. I am shooting better with it than any other of my so called higher grade guns

 shall we say.  I shot a Beretta 686 sporter for about 13 years and wish i'd never sold it. 

 

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58 minutes ago, samboy said:

I've had some decent guns over my 40 years of clay shooting.  Am also lucky enough to buy any premium gun if i wanted to.

But i have just bought a Beretta 687 Silver pigeon sporter 3 and love it. I am shooting better with it than any other of my so called higher grade guns

 shall we say.  I shot a Beretta 686 sporter for about 13 years and wish i'd never sold it. 

 

I’ve been looking at the silver  pigeon 3 and handling one in the shop and I must say I’m very tempted to have one. 

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Hello, there's a saying, money does not buy you happiness, are you buying a shotgun to admire or use, there's no question that a best English or high end O/U is nice to own but a £100 Baikal can do just as well, same as my trout fishing, I know people spend £600 on a rod where my cheapy will catch as many fish, perhaps I am to mean 🤔😁

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On 11/08/2021 at 17:38, Scully said:

Mmmm, not really. The sort of shotguns you would find in a Rambo film are 100% functional with no styling added, basically because they’re military type weapons designed for killing other human beings. 
Your basic shotgun used for sporting purposes, is just that, a basic shotgun, but mans vanity means there are many totally unnecessary embellishments added to many shotguns purely in the name of style or fashion, to massage ones ego, and just as many willing to provide those embellishments for a substantial fee. 
Embellishments which add nothing to the function of a shotgun include high grade or exhibition grade wood, precious metal inlays, bespoke engraving, coloured engraving, personalised engraving and no doubt other things I haven’t thought of. 
But you know all this already. 🙂

mate has a Holland&Holland Babmington.............it is plain wood (nice and strong)....has no engraving on ...at all and on the side plates it just has Holland&Holland....there is no blueing apart from the barrels.....it is soo understated it looks the bee,s knees...

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41 minutes ago, ditchman said:

mate has a Holland&Holland Babmington.............it is plain wood (nice and strong)....has no engraving on ...at all and on the side plates it just has Holland&Holland....there is no blueing apart from the barrels.....it is soo understated it looks the bee,s knees...

Westley Richards do a 'Gold Name' which is plain apart from the name.  Pretty gun.  https://www.westleyrichards.com/us/theexplora/the-westley-richards-gold-name-detachable-lock-shotgun/

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2 minutes ago, Smokersmith said:

Westley Richards Bournbrook 48HR Bag in Mid Tan

1895.00 for a bag

Style over substance .... perhaps a good example !! 

PS ...I love the understated looks of the "Gold Name" ... 

It is interesting.  Two well known and long established Birmingham gunmakers, William Powell and Westley Richards have taken different views on where they want to be in the market.

William Powell, back in the 1960s/70s saw shooting (and fishing) accessories as a good line - and Powell were at one time one of the main 'mail order' shooting suppliers - with a big annual catalogue and thriving business from it - whilst retaining their shop at 35 Carrs Lane and both making guns in Birmingham under their own name - and selling Powell 'Heritage' guns made by overseas makers (including Arietta and B. Rizzini) - as well as selling both second hand English and new 'branded' such as AyA, Merkel, Parker Hale etc.  The business was eventually sold out of the Powell family (circa 2010? to Mark Osborne) and continues now in Banbury, but (as far as I know) doesn't now make any guns in the UK at all and sells guns and accessories in the 'middle market' area - much as the 'old Powell' Heritage series did (i.e. not cheap budget stuff, but not exotica either - and guns openly made in Italy by B. Rizzini).

Westley Richards used to have a works in Bournbrook in Birmingham which I believe made the guns - but didn't have a 'shop' business (A.A Brown were also co-located there for a time).  More recently WR they have moved into new premises and very much make and engineer fine guns in the UK - and both make and retail some very 'high end' accessories priced accordingly.  They also now own the Teague choke business I understand.  They have by and large ignored the 'middle market' and concentrated on very 'high end' products. 

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