Shooting incident in Plymouth

[Jaymo]

When I held my French licences, then it was a requirement to renew it every year ( around €165 to include a year club membership for target shooting. For hunting you had to renew your hunting permit separately) and also to see your GP and have him sign the back of your licence and stamp it for a cost of €23. 
 

Do I think it’s excessive? No, esp if the annual GP review picks up any of these sort of unstable personalities. 
 

So, don’t moan about about paying for a GP assessment every five years and £55 renewal or whatever we’re running at and then complain that our ability to hold licences are being curtailed. We bring some of this on ourselves ( not a popular opinion with some I guess) .
 

This awful incident could possibly have been avoided ( certainly his use of a firearm), had we had a clear, concise and REGULAR assessment. 
 

[12gauge82]

I think blaming the police is a bit narrow minded. How many times have we seen on here people slating the police for being obstructive with gaining permission for certain calibers or because they've come and taken someones guns based on an unsubstantiated allegation. 

Hindsight is a wonderful thing and unfortunately everything we do in life has risks. The key to everything is balancing people's freedoms vs risks and I believe on the whole, the licensing system we have is fairly good at that, I do think there is room for a bit of tweaking, but ultimately, without banning guns altogether, there is always going to be a small risk and us blaming the police, or society blaming the shooting community is unhelpful. In my opinion there's one person to blame in all this and that's the **** who picked his gun up and decided to shoot people. 

[London Best]

No matter what happened or who was to blame does anybody think that any more blame will be laid at the police’s door than there was after Hungerford or Dunblane?

[Gordon R]

Quote

This awful incident could possibly have been avoided ( certainly his use of a firearm), had we had a clear, concise and REGULAR assessment. 

Got to disagree. This infers that no assessment whatsoever took place before handing back his guns.

The guns were removed and someone decided to hand them back. Did they make him have an assessment or merely hand them back once he completed his course? Given his history, the Anger Management Course, the alleged warnings given to the NHS and Police, it suggests someone made a massive blunder.

It doesn't call for further rules, it calls for applying the present ones properly.

[Rob85]

5 hours ago, NoBodyImportant said:

I’m honestly didn’t know you could own handguns in Ireland for protection.  

You can get a handgun issued as a personal protection weapon (ppw) if there is a known threat against you by a terrorist/known criminal organisation. Or some ex HM forces and ex police officers get to retain their service pistols. They used to be usually a glock 17 or browning hipower in 9mm or a walther ppk in .38 and you get 25 rounds along with it. You can however own any handgun you like for target shooting if you are a member of a club that has a range cleared for its use, subject to standard target shooting licences in that is range use only. I know people with .44magnum and 45acp pistols.

you cannot just ask for a gun on the "just incase" off chance that someone wants to have a go at you.

Edited August 14, 2021 by Rob85
Adding text

[GHE]

1 hour ago, mel b3 said:

Firstly . I'm glad that you're better kory👍.

Mental illness (I'm assuming at this point that he was mentally unstable , and not just evil) , could take hold of any one of us , at any time , and its very important that as a society,  were able to talk about it . By talking about it , the correct help will in many cases , get to the people that need it . The reasons for mental illness or instability are way above my pay grade . I know that it can be caused by , chemical imbalance,  physical injury , stress ,drug and alcohol abuse (as mentioned by hd), societal issues(as mentioned by mungler) , and unduobtedly many many more factors . 

On the information that has so far been made public , it would appear that he was hiding his issues from the police and his doctor . It's been said that he had his ticket revoked,  but , it may have only been suspended . The way that this was explained to me by a feo,  is that when it's revoked , the ticket is dead and gone , and you need to re apply(police interview, doctors report etc) ,  but when a ticket is suspended,  it can be returned as soon as the police are happy that you're OK to have it back (I'm happy to be corrected on this point). Either way , in this instance,  it appears that he was able to hide his issues , and have his ticket/ guns returned.

As I said earlier,  I'm desperately sad for his victims and their poor families , and I just can't imagine the pain that they must be feeling right now. As shooters , we will probably suffer tighter restrictions,  but to be honest , that seems to matter very little,  compared to the suffering of those poor bereaved families.  The incident will also have a detrimental side when it comes to shooters that have mental health issues . How many gun owners that have issues , will be happy to talk about it with their doctor and feo now.

Agreed, and we're all just speculating because very little real info has yet been released by the police, so we don't know what they knew when they decided to return his gun. Maybe the assault allegation had been proved to be entirely false and anyway, as a certificate holder he was almost bound to know other certificate holders and could probably have borrowed a gun from someone who didn't know that the police had seized his certificate and gun - it has happened before and has led to murder before.

And we also don't know whether or not they knew that he had extreme views and posted disturbing visitors. I would hope that, if they did know, then they wouldn't have issued his certificate in the first place and wouldn't have returned his gun, but that's just speculation too, because in the cases of Ryan, Hamilton and Bird, (different) police knew very good reasons why the people involved should not have had certificates, but ignored them.

But what disturbs me is the question, assuming that they DIDN'T know that this man was a potential danger, is WHY they didn't know, because that information was in the public domain and easy to find.

[oowee]

10 minutes ago, Gordon R said:

Got to disagree. This infers that no assessment whatsoever took place before handing back his guns.

The guns were removed and someone decided to hand them back. Did they make him have an assessment or merely hand them back once he completed his course? Given his history, the Anger Management Course, the alleged warnings given to the NHS and Police, it suggests someone made a massive blunder.

It doesn't call for further rules, it calls for applying the present ones properly.

^^^^^^^ This.  Lets get the rules we have working rather than create new ones. 

Can't believe that someone completing an anger management course can be handed back their guns either. Hopefully this is misreporting. 

[bostonmick]

13 minutes ago, Gordon R said:

 

It doesn't call for further rules, it calls for applying the present ones properly.

Unfortunetly we do not have rules we have guidance.and as everyone knows guidance is open to personal interpretation. Also it is a get out for the home office so blame for incidents such as this can be laid elsewhere.

[mel b3]

51 minutes ago, bluesj said:

We as shooters shouldn't suffer any thing if it is as it seems at the moment a failure of the system, we have to be on our best behaviour and do every thing correctly so i think its only fair that  the police/ authorities do the same.

I know that we shouldn't,  but I know from years of experience that we probably will.

Ultimately,  only one person is responsible for the terrible tragedy , and the details of who might have been able to have altered the outcome of it will be picked over for years to come.

For me (and I fully appreciate that some will feel differently) , by far the greatest loss , is the human loss . The loss of anything shooting related , seems pretty insignificant compared to the loss of the victims and their families.

[mel b3]

29 minutes ago, Gordon R said:

Got to disagree. This infers that no assessment whatsoever took place before handing back his guns.

The guns were removed and someone decided to hand them back. Did they make him have an assessment or merely hand them back once he completed his course? Given his history, the Anger Management Course, the alleged warnings given to the NHS and Police, it suggests someone made a massive blunder.

It doesn't call for further rules, it calls for applying the present ones properly.

I know that the full details probably aren't known yet , but if it is true that he recently attended a anger management course,  then some very critical questions need to be asked . This should have been ringing some pretty loud alarm bells .

[oldypigeonpopper]

5 hours ago, JohnfromUK said:

Do we know he visited a/his GP?  One of the difficulties with GPs is the way they operate.  I have a 'named' GP - but despite visiting the surgery rather more often than I would wish - I have never met my named GP.  I have met other GPs in the practice and several nurses and locums - and IF there was anything on file (such as alcohol or depression issues for example) then my 'named' GP would see them in the record - but he wouldn't know me well enough to know all the background.

Whilst I can see a GP may well be able to advise on 'unsuitability' (for example alcohol or depression concerns) - I can't see how a GP can know there aren't other issues as the GP doesn't know the patient at all these days.  Long gone are the days when you knew your Doctor and said hello if you saw him/her in the street.

Hello, my GP always looked the other way🤔😁, on a serious note, i am sure will will hear more of this tragic event as time goes by,

[Scully]

2 hours ago, TRINITY said:

If there is to be s knee jerk reaction, what about the banning of pump actions. Wouldn't bother me and quite honestly I dont see their attraction. 

It was only a matter of time. Would you be of the same opinion if he had used your firearm of choice? It’s dead easy to throw others under a bus because ( at the moment ) it doesn’t affect you. 🤷‍♂️
The shootings in Cumbria involved a .22rf and 12 bore double ejector, so let’s explore that idea shall we. 

[henry d]

6 hours ago, Mungler said:

Talk about projecting. 

No Henry, there’s no suggestion as yet the dreaded ‘green’ was behind this, nor immigrants nor rap music nor computer games nor a secret sect of government sponsored assassins who knocked off Lady Diana (just to tick off the Daily Express  list of causes).

It's easy enough to scoff, but I have had experience of young people and psychosis from over use of weed, and there are plenty of peer reviewed journals/papers on the increase in anxiety, depression, psychosis, and suicidal thoughts from either early use or extensive use. I am also helping my BIL to assess his use as a means towards helping him sort his family/relationship problems with as little external pressure from myself and the family, drugs was one of the first things he thought it was about when the story first hit the local social media as it is part and parcel of the culture of this area of Plymouth.

[Gordon R]

Quote

use of weed, and there are plenty of peer reviewed journals/papers on the increase in anxiety, depression, psychosis, and suicidal thoughts from either early use or extensive use.

Does this list include anger issues and murderous thoughts? Whenever people mention a "bit of weed", they tend to play down the side effects and claim it is harmless.

[12gauge82]

1 hour ago, henry d said:

It's easy enough to scoff, but I have had experience of young people and psychosis from over use of weed, and there are plenty of peer reviewed journals/papers on the increase in anxiety, depression, psychosis, and suicidal thoughts from either early use or extensive use. I am also helping my BIL to assess his use as a means towards helping him sort his family/relationship problems with as little external pressure from myself and the family, drugs was one of the first things he thought it was about when the story first hit the local social media as it is part and parcel of the culture of this area of Plymouth.

That's a bit racist isn't. Tarring an entire people from an area as druggies?

1 hour ago, mel b3 said:

I know that we shouldn't,  but I know from years of experience that we probably will.

Ultimately,  only one person is responsible for the terrible tragedy , and the details of who might have been able to have altered the outcome of it will be picked over for years to come.

For me (and I fully appreciate that some will feel differently) , by far the greatest loss , is the human loss . The loss of anything shooting related , seems pretty insignificant compared to the loss of the victims and their families.

+1

[Rob85]

1 hour ago, Scully said:

It was only a matter of time. Would you be of the same opinion if he had used your firearm of choice? It’s dead easy to throw others under a bus because ( at the moment ) it doesn’t affect you. 🤷‍♂️
The shootings in Cumbria involved a .22rf and 12 bore double ejector, so let’s explore that idea shall we. 

After cumbria I was expecting .22lr semi autos to be banned or sound moderators to be banned. Not because that's what was used but because they would have been easy targets to assuage the conscience of the political types that they had done something about it

[Shadowchaser]

1 hour ago, Scully said:

It was only a matter of time. Would you be of the same opinion if he had used your firearm of choice? It’s dead easy to throw others under a bus because ( at the moment ) it doesn’t affect you. 🤷‍♂️
The shootings in Cumbria involved a .22rf and 12 bore double ejector, so let’s explore that idea shall we. 

I'm following a thread on another forum and one bloke on there believes that semi auto's and pump actions should be made section 1 firearms.  He says that O/U or SBS are fine for everything shotgun related ie clays, pest control, game shooting.

It seems though that he just doesn't like the look of those guns and looks down on those that use them.  Not sure he'd be saying the same thing if an O/U had been used. 

[Rob85]

7 minutes ago, Shadowchaser said:

I'm following a thread on another forum and one bloke on there believes that semi auto's and pump actions should be made section 1 firearms.  He says that O/U or SBS are fine for everything shotgun related ie clays, pest control, game shooting.

It seems though that he just doesn't like the look of those guns and looks down on those that use them.  Not sure he'd be saying the same thing if an O/U had been used. 

You could wind up eventually with the same system we have in Northern Ireland where we don't have a shotgun certificate, everything right down to sub 12lb/ft airguns are classed as firearms and held on a firearms licence. Not that the type of licence matters in this case, just the fact that he was unhinged and allowed to have his certificate back 

[Yellow Bear]

18 minutes ago, Rob85 said:

assuage the conscience of the political types that they had done something about it

I see Starmer is already jumping on this band waggon.

[Rob85]

Just now, Yellow Bear said:

I see Starmer is already jumping on this band waggon.

Hopefully he falls under the wheels of it

[wymberley]

Have you ever wondered why we're called Subjects? Simple. We're subject to anything who those we're subject to wish to throw at us.

[kory1986]

Love how the media is going on about how he watched gun videos on social media like that makes you a bit nuts if you watch gun videos. I think his nutty behaviour comes form being what is a called a INCELL been looking them up to day they are right bunch of fruit loops. The guy wasn't a gun nut he was a nut because of the type of people he mixed with a d his beliefs ,  honestly do a bit of research on these nutters. They hate women  they also hate men who are not virgins strange bunch.      

Edited August 14, 2021 by kory1986

[mossy835]

3 hours ago, Gordon R said:

I find it hard to comprehend that someone who has anger issues would ever obtain a licence, let alone have it revoked and then re-instated, following an Anger Management Course. The necesssity for the Anger Management Course would ring mega alarm bells for me.  

 

 

this

[JohnfromUK]

12 minutes ago, kory1986 said:

Love how the media is going on about how he watched gun videos on social media like that makes you a bit nuts if you watch gun videos.

There was a Professor Peter Squires quoted in the Mail (!) suggesting that a pump action gun of the type used  had a tubular magazine that enabled it to fire in "bursts" like a semi-auto.

Professor Squires is "an eminent criminologist", but clearly (as a long standing leading light in the Gun Control Network who want to see everything banned) not above dramatising and exaggerating by using 'bursts' to describe the operation.  The public were likely intended to read into that that it was a automatic weapon.

[clangerman]

so we can find with a few clicks this chap was unfit to have firearms yet the police failed to do so if the law suits to follow this even see a court with such wilful utter negligence i will be stunned