Safe or not?

[Townie]

At the clay ground the other day and I bumped into a chap using a semi.

Big red flag properly in the breech demonstrating it was safe, but he was carrying at the trail i.e. gripping in front of the trigger guard, gun parallel to the ground. This meant that fellow shooters were looking at the muzzle from time to time.

My view was that irrespective of the breech flag, the gun should be pointed in a safe direction. Having said that, I'm sure my muzzles occasionally point at people when my gun is broken, but the gun is obviously safe.

Any views? Not an anti-semi thing (I used to have one) but interested in people's thoughts. 

[TIGHTCHOKE]

Did you point your feelings out to him?

[wymberley]

11 minutes ago, TIGHTCHOKE said:

Did you point your feelings out to him?

Yep, because one day he'll be carrying an O/U/SbS in a similar fashion.

[Scully]

No different to folk carrying their broken OU’s over a shoulder pointing in either direction, in my opinion. If you can see the flag, which you obviously could, then I don’t see the issue. 
At least it proves the breech is empty, I suppose, which isn’t blatantly obvious with a broken OU. 

[holloway]

Just not a good habit to get in to really safe or not.

[Westley]

I am a firm believer of 'gun in slip' between stands. Problem over  !          Wait for the "But you can not see it' s empty" comments  ?

[enfieldspares]

5 hours ago, Townie said:

At the clay ground the other day and I bumped into a chap using a semi.

Big red flag properly in the breech demonstrating it was safe, but he was carrying at the trail i.e. gripping in front of the trigger guard, gun parallel to the ground. This meant that fellow shooters were looking at the muzzle from time to time.

My view was that irrespective of the breech flag, the gun should be pointed in a safe direction. Having said that, I'm sure my muzzles occasionally point at people when my gun is broken, but the gun is obviously safe.

Any views? Not an anti-semi thing (I used to have one) but interested in people's thoughts. 

Yes. I agree 100%! What is he? Ex-RGJ? 

[Townie]

Spoke to the chap at Minsterley Ranges (up in Shropshire for a few days. Minsterley is excellent and because it was empty, they let me have a play with some of the more interesting guns).

He's an instructor and his first point was that the flag couldn't be immediately seen, so it's a question of not just being safe, but being seen to be safe.

[steve1066]

7 hours ago, Townie said:

At the clay ground the other day and I bumped into a chap using a semi.

Big red flag properly in the breech demonstrating it was safe, but he was carrying at the trail i.e. gripping in front of the trigger guard, gun parallel to the ground. This meant that fellow shooters were looking at the muzzle from time to time.

My view was that irrespective of the breech flag, the gun should be pointed in a safe direction. Having said that, I'm sure my muzzles occasionally point at people when my gun is broken, but the gun is obviously safe.

Any views? Not an anti-semi thing (I used to have one) but interested in people's thoughts. 

Witnessed the same thing at Mickley Hall last Saturday on two occasions, at least your person had a breech flag inserted our two didn’t. 

[steve1066]

5 minutes ago, steve1066 said:

Witnessed the same thing at Mickley Hall last Saturday on two occasions, at least your person had a breech flag inserted our two didn’t. 

Sorry folks message sent before I could complete my quote. So mentioned to one of them that the gun should really be vertical or pointing down and got a verbal beating from his girl friend, they then walked on about 30 yards where they got a dressing down by one of the grounds supervisors, so if you don’t mention anything then they will just carry on as per usual. It’s was obvious that they were either just thick or had not had a safety lesson of how to conduct themselves when using a semi-auto.

[London Best]

7 hours ago, Scully said:

At least it proves the breech is empty, I suppose, which isn’t blatantly obvious with a broken OU. 

Two seasons ago I had a day’s rough shooting as a guest. My host loaded his O/U as he left his car.and placed it broken over his shoulder, where it stayed like that for the rest of the day, even throughout elevenses.
I declined his invitation last season.  
The man is an RFD.

[WalkedUp]

Any gun be that empty, broken, flagged etc should never point at another person, or any living thing you do not wish to kill. 

If you get into that habit you will always be safe and in the event of an awful accident or absent mindedness, you will still be safe. Start getting sloppy and then one simple mistake could kill or maim someone. 

Gun is broken going into sleeve, broken coming out. Same with semi, to check chamber. I have occasionally spoken to people about gun handling if I was ‘muzzled’. I always do it at a later point after striking up conversation, and in as much of a non confrontational manner as possible. Last year my friend’s grandson delighted in picking me up when I carried my broken gun parallel to the ground and the dropped barrels crossed the path of his shins. I was happy to be rapt over the knuckles, keeps me on my toes and shoes he is alert and knows good gun handling. 

[Jim Neal]

12 hours ago, Townie said:

irrespective of the breech flag, the gun should be pointed in a safe direction

Absolutely agree.  Act like it's loaded, even when it's not - those were the words given to me when under the wing of several experienced shots whilst I was a novice.

One point to consider is that the people surrounding the carrier of the gun might not understand or recognise the flag-in-breech system and just think they've got a gun being wafted around in front of them in a very unsafe manner.

Thinking about it, I'm not sure who would be more perturbed by someone with such bad muzzle awareness - an experienced shooter who knows better, or someone without a clue about shooting who is just very worried about a gun being pointed at them?

2 hours ago, London Best said:

Two seasons ago I had a day’s rough shooting as a guest. My host loaded his O/U as he left his car.and placed it broken over his shoulder, where it stayed like that for the rest of the day, even throughout elevenses.
I declined his invitation last season.  
The man is an RFD.

Hats off to the guy for taking his elevenses one-handed though!

Being honest, I'd raise one eyebrow at such gun handling, as long as he wasn't taking low shots or doing anything else silly, but I wouldn't let it keep me away from a good rough day.  Was there much worth turning up for, regardless of the host's indiscretion?

Edited September 1, 2021 by Jim Neal

[stu64]

I regularly use a semi auto at clay shoots and use the orange "Benelli" breech lock. when the gun is out of the slip I carry it with the muzzle pointing skyward and the breech facing forward so people can see the flag. I am not comfortable around people with lazy safety habits.

[Croohur]

Also, if you're the other side of the person holding the semi auto, you can't see if there is a flag or not. 

[London Best]

9 hours ago, Jim Neal said:

 

Hats off to the guy for taking his elevenses one-handed though!

Being honest, I'd raise one eyebrow at such gun handling, as long as he wasn't taking low shots or doing anything else silly, but I wouldn't let it keep me away from a good rough day.  Was there much worth turning up for, regardless of the host's indiscretion?

He balanced the gun no handed whilst eating and drinking!   

I have to disagree with your second paragraph. That is a totally unacceptable way to carry a gun, despite the fact that otherwise his shooting is very safe. Would you find it acceptable for him to be walking round a clay ground like that?  Of course not, and there is no excuse for it in the field either. 
The day itself was varied with plenty of shooting. I can’t remember the bag unless I search old diaries, but I think four of us shot nine or ten different species.

[Townie]

2 hours ago, stu64 said:

I regularly use a semi auto at clay shoots and use the orange "Benelli" breech lock. when the gun is out of the slip I carry it with the muzzle pointing skyward and the breech facing forward so people can see the flag. I am not comfortable around people with lazy safety habits.

That's how I used to carry my semi. Someone told me he carries his muzzle down, breech flag pointing forward so it can be seen by all, which makes sense.

[Scully]

On our rough shoot we carry our guns loaded and broken, there is no other option which is practical yet safer.
Autos and pumps are carried loaded but with an empty breech. Simple. 

Standing or walking next to someone with a loaded but broken gun doesn’t faze me at all. 

[Jim Neal]

12 hours ago, London Best said:

He balanced the gun no handed whilst eating and drinking!   

I have to disagree with your second paragraph. That is a totally unacceptable way to carry a gun, despite the fact that otherwise his shooting is very safe. Would you find it acceptable for him to be walking round a clay ground like that?  Of course not, and there is no excuse for it in the field either. 
The day itself was varied with plenty of shooting. I can’t remember the bag unless I search old diaries, but I think four of us shot nine or ten different species.

As long as one of the species wasn't human, sounds like a great day!  Personally It would take more than that to keep me away from a decent rough day - I'd have to have seen real evidence of imminent danger to some of the others in the party - but I suppose we all have our own yardstick to measure it by.

So the gun was loaded whilst balanced on his shoulder?  Yep that's more than a bit silly, I wouldn't defend that for a moment.  Hand on the barrels, I don't consider it an issue short term, for example slipping your dog on/off the lead or holding someone else's gun whilst they hop over a fence.  Of course it's not "proper" form but a rough day out with a few other people is not a clay ground, and maybe we can't always apply the same rules?

I completely get your point, it is a very serious responsibility to carry a gun and complacency often leads to mistakes and accidents, therefore we should always be thinking of gun safety and muzzle awareness.

[London Best]

10 hours ago, Jim Neal said:

for example slipping your dog on/off the lead or holding someone else's gun whilst they hop over a fence

I completely get your point, it is a very serious responsibility to carry a gun and complacency often leads to mistakes and accidents, therefore we should always be thinking of gun safety and muzzle awareness.

Sorry Jim, but if I’m going to hold your gun whilst you cross a fence you can take the cartridges out, right out, not just drop the barrels.

[Walker570]

Unfortunately with a semi auto it is always difficult not to have it pointing somehwere. The magazine plug is always a good idea but better still put it in a slip. Takes but a couple of seconds to put it in and extract it.  I rarely shoot clays these days but recently at the West Mids 410 day my gun went in the sleeve as soon as I stepped back from the stand. It did not seem to hold anyone up or cause a problem.

[Demonic69]

What's the likelihood of a loaded shotgun, sleeved, being dropped and going off?

I'd rather see a broken, empty gun carried properly (in the crook of the arm pointing forwards and down) or a semi-auto with a breech flag and muzzle up TBH. There's no way to ascertain the safety of a gun in a slip, if it were loaded and the user grabbed it by the trigger...

I was more concerned about the plebs at Cockett with the gun over their should, barrels pointing backwards and at everyone walking past than I was about the lads carrying their SAs properly.

[Walker570]

3 hours ago, Demonic69 said:

What's the likelihood of a loaded shotgun, sleeved, being dropped and going off?

I'd rather see a broken, empty gun carried properly (in the crook of the arm pointing forwards and down) or a semi-auto with a breech flag and muzzle up TBH. There's no way to ascertain the safety of a gun in a slip, if it were loaded and the user grabbed it by the trigger...

I was more concerned about the plebs at Cockett with the gun over their should, barrels pointing backwards and at everyone walking past than I was about the lads carrying their SAs properly.

There are one or two on here who love and quote statistics.. therefore can you list the number of discharges from shotguns being dropped whilst in a sleeve or for that matter  out of a sleeve.   I'm happy to take the last 25years statistics.    A bit like recent comment about not wearing glasses to shoot because of the possibility of a blow back etc.,

In some 65 years of both pastime use and professional use I have only come across one case which was a double loaded 38 Speciel round in a police range and believe me I have seen someserious antique guns in rare condition on farm shoots.

[TIGHTCHOKE]

On 01/09/2021 at 10:58, TIGHTCHOKE said:

Did you point your feelings out to him?

So then Townie, did you speak to him about his poor behaviour?

[Demonic69]

8 minutes ago, Walker570 said:

There are one or two on here who love and quote statistics.. therefore can you list the number of discharges from shotguns being dropped whilst in a sleeve or for that matter  out of a sleeve.   I'm happy to take the last 25years statistics.    A bit like recent comment about not wearing glasses to shoot because of the possibility of a blow back etc.,

In some 65 years of both pastime use and professional use I have only come across one case which was a double loaded 38 Speciel round in a police range and believe me I have seen someserious antique guns in rare condition on farm shoots.

I thought it would be fairly unlikely, but there are plenty that have had guns for years and never cleaned them on here