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Safe or not?


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11 hours ago, London Best said:

Sorry Jim, but if I’m going to hold your gun whilst you cross a fence you can take the cartridges out, right out, not just drop the barrels.

You've got the wrong end of the stick my friend :)

I meant I would leave my cartridges in (safety would be on) with my gun on my shoulder, held by the barrels, for just the odd few seconds here and there, like bending down to slip the dog lead so I didn't plug my barrels.

If I was handed a broken gun with cartridges in the chambers, I too would politely ask the owner to remove them first!

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3 minutes ago, Jim Neal said:

If I was handed a broken gun with cartridges in the chambers, I too would politely ask the owner to remove them first!

I take them out and pocket them myself 😏

Or if I don’t know them well enough then the cartridges have been known to be accidentally tipped into the mud for the gun to dig out and clean off. I never hand someone back a gun with cartridges in. I don’t like nagging people, I do like helping them make the right decision next time. 

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13 minutes ago, WalkedUp said:

 

the cartridges have been known to be accidentally tipped into the mud for the gun to dig out and clean off. I never hand someone back a gun with cartridges in. I don’t like nagging people, I do like helping them make the right decision next time. 

I have been known to do that myself, but I have never bothered to make it look accidental.

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47 minutes ago, Scully said:

Can I ask all those on here who are terrified of others having broken shotguns containing cartridges, how they carry theirs on a rough shoot day? 

My issue with my RFD friend was that, during the rough shoot day, he kept his gun loaded, broken over his shoulder, when he WASN’T rough shooting. That is, standing around, making plans, crossing fences, ditches, eating, drinking and all the other times during a shooting outing when the gun should not be loaded.

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32 minutes ago, London Best said:

when he WASN’T rough shooting

Precisely! I am happy with guns loaded, safe and up or loaded, broken and down whilst shooting. Some of our walked up drives are over two hours. However, when you are at an obstacle or standing around talking you are no longer shooting. The gun is to be emptied. If you are stood in a huddle and a bird gets up you let it go on. You do not rush to the draw. Therefore it is no disadvantage to have the gun unloaded. 

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Just finished reading GAME SHOOTING by Mr Churchill and he quotes on a game shoot a gamekeeper seeing cartridges in a broken gun,  politely asked the shooter " could I please see what cartridges you are using sir". Then giving back the two cartridges said quietly " Now put them in your pocket there's a good chap." 

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2 hours ago, London Best said:

My issue with my RFD friend was that, during the rough shoot day, he kept his gun loaded, broken over his shoulder, when he WASN’T rough shooting. That is, standing around, making plans, crossing fences, ditches, eating, drinking and all the other times during a shooting outing when the gun should not be loaded.

Apart from the pain of having to ensure you didn’t lose the cartridges, I can’t help but wonder what kind of danger he posed, bearing in mind that I’m assuming he also carries the gun like that while actually walking during the rough shoot,  as opposed to loaded and closed, which is a much more dangerous option. 

I hasten to add that I don’t have cartridges in the gun while standing about eating etc, for the reason I initially gave, but I can’t see what threat he posed, I really can’t. 
I also remove cartridges prior to handing a gun to someone while I climb an obstacle, but again it’s simply so they aren’t lost. 

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56 minutes ago, Scully said:

Apart from the pain of having to ensure you didn’t lose the cartridges, I can’t help but wonder what kind of danger he posed, bearing in mind that I’m assuming he also carries the gun like that while actually walking during the rough shoot,  as opposed to loaded and closed, which is a much more dangerous option. 

I hasten to add that I don’t have cartridges in the gun while standing about eating etc, for the reason I initially gave, but I can’t see what threat he posed, I really can’t. 
I also remove cartridges prior to handing a gun to someone while I climb an obstacle, but again it’s simply so they aren’t lost. 

You can't? Well picture the scene.

A chap's sitting having his lunch with said gun broken over his knee, but he's also got an insect bite on his calf. Unbeknown to him, his wife, who's vexed with him at waking her up at 4am on her lie in day, has laced his tuna sandwich with as much pepper she could buy in Tesco. This prompts a bout of sneezing so staggeringly violent that, in his rush to move his hand to his mouth from the insect bite he's been scratching, he accidentally snaps the gun closed. but he also jumps up at the same time, the gun falls to the floor and the jolt sets both barrels off, killing a dead grouse and a wing mirror. It could have been so much worse! IT COULD HAPPEN...ish.

I think it falls into the category of not best practice, but without it being expressly clear what the realistic potential threat is. Promoting safe practice is one thing, but there comes a point where that gives way to unnecessary paranoia. A gun in the hands of an idiot is still far more dangerous than in the hands of someone who isn't, even if they're not following perfect gun safety etiquette 

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I make my own breech flags 12" bright orange cable ties with on of my wife's  large diabetic needle cases  which I cut a slit into and thread the tie through in and out then lock the tie off, it is acceptable at both clubs I use on my semi's and bolt actions and highly visible, with the tie being 12" long I can push it right into the chamber or pull it out  so still visible, I shoot alone on a farm ,on occasions if  I see some one or talk to the farmer I empty what gun I have and pocket the cartridge if it is a rimfire mag is pulled and chamber cleared ,that works for me,there is one other that is allowed on the farm but not for much longer  do to his actions he drives around the whole area with up to 3 shotties  loaded lent against the passenger seat or door his words "quick access" and that is how he leaves the farm, uncovered and no slips he reckons amongst his so called friends are the area Chief Constable and Firearms Manager??

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3 hours ago, Scully said:

I can’t help but wonder what kind of danger he posed

 

Maybe I’ve led a sheltered life, but when somebody gets out of his car in the morning and the first thing he does is take out his gun and drop two cartridges in before plonking it across his shoulder and then starting to discuss plans, etc., quite frankly it worries me and I don’t want to shoot with him.

Your view may differ.

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15 hours ago, chrisjpainter said:

 

I think it falls into the category of not best practice, but without it being expressly clear what the realistic potential threat is. Promoting safe practice is one thing, but there comes a point where that gives way to unnecessary paranoia. A gun in the hands of an idiot is still far more dangerous than in the hands of someone who isn't, even if they're not following perfect gun safety etiquette 

That's it exactly. Some people do things differently, and although not inherently unsafe, not quite as others would like it to be. I think there is often a degree of snobbery involved also, and for the same reasons. Anyone who turns up on a formal driven shoot in not quite what is acceptable to the main, the correct dress code, is frowned upon from the outset, and if what they deem to be safe doesn't quite fit with the approval of others then it's a double whammy really. I'm talking from decades of experience here. 

13 hours ago, London Best said:

Maybe I’ve led a sheltered life, but when somebody gets out of his car in the morning and the first thing he does is take out his gun and drop two cartridges in before plonking it across his shoulder and then starting to discuss plans, etc., quite frankly it worries me and I don’t want to shoot with him.

Your view may differ.

Admittedly it's a tad odd, but unsafe? Opinions may differ, but if I'm honest I don't regard it anymore dangerous than walking with a broken but loaded gun. 

On the other hand, I would regard the deliberate act of dumping someone's cartridges in the mud as a totally needless and arrogantly petulant act. 

Edited by Scully
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2 hours ago, Scully said:

That's it exactly. Some people do things differently, and although not inherently unsafe, not quite as others would like it to be. I think there is often a degree of snobbery involved also, and for the same reasons. Anyone who turns up on a formal driven shoot in not quite what is acceptable to the main, the correct dress code, is frowned upon from the outset, and if what they deem to be safe doesn't quite fit with the approval of others then it's a double whammy really. I'm talking from decades of experience here. 

Admittedly it's a tad odd, but unsafe? Opinions may differ, but if I'm honest I don't regard it anymore dangerous than walking with a broken but loaded gun. 

On the other hand, I would regard the deliberate act of dumping someone's cartridges in the mud as a totally needless and arrogantly petulant act. 

This guy carrying a broken but loaded gun over one shoulder must have had all sorts of comments (good, bad and ugly) thrown at him, thus making him quite famous /infamous, do we have a name or. 

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22 hours ago, DUNKS said:

Just finished reading GAME SHOOTING by Mr Churchill and he quotes on a game shoot a gamekeeper seeing cartridges in a broken gun,  politely asked the shooter " could I please see what cartridges you are using sir". Then giving back the two cartridges said quietly " Now put them in your pocket there's a good chap." 

Another, from the days of roll turnover cartridges that had the shot size printed on the overshot wad, see below picture, said to someone following through the line was "Was that No. 6s that I saw you're using today...".

The inference being that the only way the offended party could have known such was from having had the unpleasant experience of just having had to look down the muzzles of his neighbour's gun.

 

A227.jpg

Edited by enfieldspares
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23 hours ago, London Best said:

My issue with my RFD friend was that, during the rough shoot day, he kept his gun loaded, broken over his shoulder, when he WASN’T rough shooting. That is, standing around, making plans, crossing fences, ditches, eating, drinking and all the other times during a shooting outing when the gun should not be loaded.

He was a clay shooter then.  If there is one thing I hate is to see guns slung on shoulders and not down on the arm as they should be.  Good question about how they carry their guns on a rough shooting day.  You often see guns shouldered as if they are on parade.

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1 hour ago, Walker570 said:

He was a clay shooter then.  If there is one thing I hate is to see guns slung on shoulders and not down on the arm as they should be.  Good question about how they carry their guns on a rough shooting day.  You often see guns shouldered as if they are on parade.

Shouldered with gun closed and/or loaded with the left or right hand holding the wrist of the gun below the triggerguard is in the correct environment a perfectly safe and acceptable method of carry.

You'll see it done a lot when walking up and especially when walking up grouse as it better balances the shooter and if the ground underfoot is thick heather not only gives him or her better balance bit also keeps the muzzles clear of the ground.

It is also...one gun broken over the left arm and the other gun "shouldered" in the same left arm with the left hand holding the wrist below the triggerguard the correct way to carry a pair of guns. because leaves the right arm and hand free to help balance and open gates and etc..

Plus it removes all risk of the barrels of the pair of guns banging together as with the awful and ignorance led practice of carrying both guns of the pair broken either one on each arm of both on the one arm.

Would I condone "shouldered" as I've described above when on a conventional clay shoot when moving between stands or positions on a trap or skeet layout? No. It isn't for such places. Broken and empty is best for that. 

Edited by enfieldspares
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4 minutes ago, enfieldspares said:

Shouldered with gun closed and the left or right hand holding the wrist of the gun below the triggerguard is in the correct environment a perfectly safe and acceptable method of carry.

You'll see it done a lot when walking up and especially when walking up grouse as it better balances the shooter and if the ground underfoot is thick heather not only gives him or her better balance bit also keeps the muzzles clear of the ground.

It is also...one gun broken over the left arm and the other gun "shouldered" in the same left arm with the left hand holding the wrist below the triggerguard the correct way to carry a pair of guns. because leaves the right arm and hand free to help balance and open gates and etc..

Plus it removes all risk of the barrels of the pair of guns banging together as with the awful and ignorance led practice of carrying both guns of the pair broken either one on each arm of both on the one arm.

Would I condone "shouldered" as I've described above when on a conventional clay shoot when moving between stands or positions on a trap or skeet layout? No. Broken and empty is best for that. 

Agreed. All good stuff.

But the chap I have been on about, when not shooting, stood around with the gun balanced with the bottom of the action sitting on his shoulder with two cartridges in the open breech. 
As Neville says, you see a lot of clay shooters carrying guns like this, but with empty chambers. I always thought they did it because their guns were too heavy for them to carry under their arm.

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What was I saying? All of the subsequent posts have eloquently described the snobbery with which some regard others, simply because they do things differently.
It is uncomfortable to carry an OU in the same manner as a sxs due to the pistol grip digging into the bone. 
There is nothing unsafe about clay shooters, and I hazard to guess they have a better safety record than most game shooters and their ‘tradition’ of carrying guns loaded and closed but with the safety on. If I had a tenner for every game shot I’ve seen who doesn’t know how to unslip and slip his gun without sweeping it through all and sundry, I wouldn’t need to go to work! 
People criticise those with semi autos as they can’t see that the gun is safe, even with the breech open, yet believe it acceptable to carry a loaded gun closed as long as the safety is on! And all in the name of tradition….’if it was good enough for dear old grand papa, it’s good enough for me.’ 
Who, apart from the gun owner, knows that the safety is on?
He who relies on, and believes that a safety will prevent anyone being shot, is an idiot and a dangerous gun, and best to be avoided. 
If you believe a gun to be unsafe then it is your responsibility to inform that person, and it can so easily be done without pompously dumping their cartridges in the mud! The sheer arrogance of some staggers me! 
 

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12 minutes ago, Scully said:


It is uncomfortable to carry an OU in the same manner as a sxs due to the pistol grip digging into the bone
 

If you are carrying a gun over your arm, any gun, and the pistol grip is digging into the bone then surely you have your arm the wrong side of the trigger guard?

1 minute ago, WalkedUp said:

It is very simple:

1. treat every gun as if it is loaded

2. Only point your gun at things you intend to kill

3. If you are not actively shooting your gun should be unloaded, it is safest and considerate to do this in a manner visible to others (broken / flagged). 

Good post. Sums it all up very simply.

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