Safe or not?

[redial]

On 04/09/2021 at 13:54, DUNKS said:

Just finished reading GAME SHOOTING by Mr Churchill and he quotes on a game shoot a gamekeeper seeing cartridges in a broken gun,  politely asked the shooter " could I please see what cartridges you are using sir". Then giving back the two cartridges said quietly " Now put them in your pocket there's a good chap." 

Love it.

[12gauge82]

Bit of a late reply, but personally I don't see what the fuss is about. There are many different ways of safe gun handling, which doesn't make one way safer than another. 

Taken to extreme, military and police personnel will often carry fully loaded and made ready weapons and even conduct live fire exercises safely with the correct protocols in place, although I'm not suggesting we start firing bullets past each other on the range. But to say the only safe way is (insert list here) is nonsense. 

I accept part of it is also making other people around you feel safe as well, which is why some clubs or syndicates will have different practices and excepted norms. 

The bottom line however, is a gun with a breach flag preventing the gun being able to function fitted is safe. I believe a few of the views posted here are snobbery, or a one dimensional viewpoint as they've only been taught one way and believe any other way must be unsafe. 

 

[Scully]

8 hours ago, 12gauge82 said:

Bit of a late reply, but personally I don't see what the fuss is about. There are many different ways of safe gun handling, which doesn't make one way safer than another. 

Taken to extreme, military and police personnel will often carry fully loaded and made ready weapons and even conduct live fire exercises safely with the correct protocols in place, although I'm not suggesting we start firing bullets past each other on the range. But to say the only safe way is (insert list here) is nonsense. 

I accept part of it is also making other people around you feel safe as well, which is why some clubs or syndicates will have different practices and excepted norms. 

The bottom line however, is a gun with a breach flag preventing the gun being able to function fitted is safe. I believe a few of the views posted here are snobbery, or a one dimensional viewpoint as they've only been taught one way and believe any other way must be unsafe. 

 

This. 

[WalkedUp]

Injuries due to negligent discharges happen very infrequently in this country because multiple mistakes in our traditional gun handling have to occur simultaneously for it to be an issue. That is the protection our etiquette brings. If your gun is always pointed in a safe direction then in the worst case your negligent discharge will be scary but not put anyone at risk. 

It is not snobbery, being lax with gun handling massively increases the chance for a negligent discharge to cause death or serious injury. 

Edited September 22, 2021 by WalkedUp

[12gauge82]

1 hour ago, WalkedUp said:

Injuries due to negligent discharges happen very infrequently in this country because multiple mistakes in our traditional gun handling have to occur simultaneously for it to be an issue. That is the protection our etiquette brings. If your gun is always pointed in a safe direction then in the worst case your negligent discharge will be scary but not put anyone at risk. 

It is not snobbery, being lax with gun handling massively increases the chance for a negligent discharge to cause death or serious injury. 

So how do you explain the thousand of rough shooters, soldiers and  police personnel who safely handle weapons without incident everyday, if your traditional etiquette is the only safe way? 

 

[London Best]

19 minutes ago, 12gauge82 said:

police personnel who safely handle weapons without incident everyday, 

 

When we had a visit one evening from the helicopter and armed response units my mate had to shove the barrel of a H&K which was negligently pointing at his knee and tell the safe policeman, “don’t point that fing gun at my leg.” The officer opened the door of his car and threw the gun on the back seat.

[Walker570]

As above   'MUZZLE AWARENESS'  even if your kicking a criminals front door in as an eight man team.

[12gauge82]

2 hours ago, London Best said:

When we had a visit one evening from the helicopter and armed response units my mate had to shove the barrel of a H&K which was negligently pointing at his knee and tell the safe policeman, “don’t point that fing gun at my leg.” The officer opened the door of his car and threw the gun on the back seat.

Not very good practice although that's not to say the gun wasn't safe, I'd suggest he could have been in more danger "shoving" an armed police officers gun if he'd precived someone suddenly grabbing his gun as some sort of threat. 

All that aside, I don't see what that has to do with this conversation, I'm sure we've all seen bad practice at traditional game shoots with "traditional etiquette" at play. 

[London Best]

You keep banging on about ‘traditional etiquette’. 
Why does this bother you? 
Are you some sort of inverted snob?

[12gauge82]

1 hour ago, London Best said:

You keep banging on about ‘traditional etiquette’. 
Why does this bother you? 
Are you some sort of inverted snob?

I'm not banging on about it, in fact quite the opposite, I'm not the one who has held it up as the only way to safely handle a firearm, like several other posts on here seem to. 

[holloway]

3 hours ago, London Best said:

You keep banging on about ‘traditional etiquette’. 
Why does this bother you? 
Are you some sort of inverted snob?

He seems to have a problem with it doesn't he.

Nothing to do with etiquette it's common sense isn't it ?

[12gauge82]

1 minute ago, holloway said:

He seems to have a problem with it doesn't he.

Nothing to do with etiquette it's common sense isn't it ?

Your making my point for me, it was someone else that stated traditional etiquette was what kept shooters safe, I'm the person who has argued that is not necessarily the case. Keep up! 

[holloway]

1 minute ago, 12gauge82 said:

Your making my point for me, it was someone else that stated traditional etiquette was what kept shooters safe, I'm the person who has argued that is not necessarily the case. Keep up! 

Oh ....ok sorry I will try harder.

[12gauge82]

Just now, holloway said:

Oh ....ok sorry I will try harder.

👍👍

[WalkedUp]

11 hours ago, 12gauge82 said:

So how do you explain the thousand of rough shooters, soldiers and  police personnel who safely handle weapons without incident everyday, if your traditional etiquette is the only safe way? 

 

L: You may like to buy my tiger-repelling rock. 

H: How does it work?

L: Well, do you see any tigers?

H: Here’s $50

I’m quoting from old dusty memory, but here is the proper link:

 

 

[12gauge82]

3 minutes ago, WalkedUp said:

L: You may like to buy my tiger-repelling rock. 

H: How does it work?

L: Well, do you see any tigers?

H: Here’s $50

That's not the same though is it. My post mentions people who arm up and shoot everyday, right around the country without incident. In yours, there was no tiger. 

[WalkedUp]

🙈

[WalkedUp]

It was a simple analogy that correlation is not causation. Just because people are not dying frequently does not mean that others’ handling is safe. Additionally you condoning lax muzzle awareness doesn’t mean that there are statistically significant numbers of people with equally poor gun control. Or that each year there should be enough deaths from poor gun handling to make sure you remember to not point your gun at anyone or anything you do not wish to kill. 

I have seen a dozen negligent discharges and a few hang fires in the last 20 years. Fortunately the guns were always pointed safely so no problem. I negligently discharged my own air rifle once, fortunately it was on target and killed the jay but I was only raising it to my face and in gloved hand knocked the trigger marginally before I wanted to pull it. These things do happen if you shoot enough. 

Edited September 22, 2021 by WalkedUp

[12gauge82]

8 minutes ago, WalkedUp said:

🙈

Ditto 😂😂😂

3 minutes ago, WalkedUp said:

It was a simple analogy that correlation is not causation. Just because you condone lax muzzle awareness doesn’t mean that there are statistically significant numbers of people with equally poor gun control. Or that each year there should be enough deaths from poor gun handling to make sure you remember to not point your gun at anyone or anything you do not wish to kill. 

I have seen a dozen negligent discharges and a few hang fires in the last 20 years. Fortunately the guns were always pointed safely so no problem. I negligently discharged my own air rifle once, fortunately it was on target and killed the jay but I was only raising it to my face and in gloved hand knocked the trigger marginally before I wanted to pull it. These things do happen if you shoot enough. 

Your example doesn't stack up, the entire army, navy, airforce, armed police officers and very few incidents. 

And I never said poor muzzle awareness was acceptable. Just that there is more than one system to keep people safe when shooting. 

Edited September 22, 2021 by 12gauge82

[WalkedUp]

In the army it is acceptable to point the muzzle of your weapon at your fellow squadies? 

[12gauge82]

I've made my point and I'm not looking for an argument.

[WalkedUp]

👍

[Scully]

This thread was started by someone asking if a semi auto gun with a flag in the breech, but carried parallel to the ground, was ‘safe or not’.
The answer is yes, the gun was perfectly safe, regardless of whether others approve or not of its method of carry…..and that’s it. 

[WalkedUp]

15 minutes ago, Scully said:

This thread was started by someone asking if a semi auto gun with a flag in the breech, but carried parallel to the ground, was ‘safe or not’.
The answer is yes, the gun was perfectly safe, regardless of whether others approve or not of its method of carry…..and that’s it. 

Nope, I am afraid you are wrong. It is not safe. 

Or you are only as correct as it is to say: it is safe to put a gun that you believe to be unloaded into your mouth and pull the trigger. 

[Scully]

3 minutes ago, WalkedUp said:

Nope, I am afraid you are wrong. It is not safe. 

Or you are only as correct as it is to say: it is safe to put a gun that you believe to be unloaded into your mouth and pull the trigger. 

What a ridiculous statement! 😂

There was a flag in the breech! So tell me, apart from a toe injury if dropped on your foot,  what threat could that gun possibly pose?