Paying for the care system

[Scully]

4 hours ago, discobob said:

There are families that are unable to conceive .....

Remember what used to happened for "single mothers" back in the day. It happened in my family

Do you think it is acceptable for single mothers to have their newborns forcibly removed? 

[Vince Green]

26 minutes ago, Scully said:

Do you think it is acceptable for single mothers to have their newborns forcibly removed? 

I don't think he said anything about forcibly did he?

Do you think its acceptable to use a baby as a meal ticket for life?

For many young girls/couples with no qualifications they have absolutely no prospect of ever earning enough to rent or buy a place of their own.

So a baby is the only way they can beat the system and get housed by the council. There are examples of it in my extended family.

And once they are on "the social"  there is virtually no way they will ever get off again, the bar is set too high

The system almost pushes them into it

Edited September 7, 2021 by Vince Green

[Mungler]

There is an interesting question as to whether it is fair to have children knowing full well that you don't have the means of supporting them.

You couldn't buy or rent a house or a car without first having the right money, an income or demonstrating creditworthiness to a lender.

Indeed, there is now a perceived "right" to have children despite the practicalities and economics and all the while the world become ever more over populated.

This also leads into a growing dependence on the state and a growing involvement of the state in our every day to day lives which I hope we can all agree can't be a good thing.

[TRINITY]

Unless I have missed it ,I dont think anyone has mentioned the actual cost of care. The amounts of thousands a week seem very high, especially when you see the state of some of these homes and the wages of their staff. The only care home owners I know are extremely wealthy as a result of the business.

[oowee]

57 minutes ago, RockySpears said:

On the news was a bloke crying because he had to sell his parents house to pay for their care.  Dad is deceased and Mum has dementia and in a home.

Why not sell the house?  They saved their money and it will now fund their care, why not?  Oh, maybe he was crying because he was not getting his inheritance?

The fact is almost nobody can afford to pay for their care.  You may have contributed Tax and NI for 50 years or more, but that is still not enough.

"The average weekly cost of living in a residential care home is £704, while the average weekly cost of a nursing home is £888 across the UK. The monthly average cost of residential care is £2816 and receiving nursing care in a care home costs on average £3552."

Source: https://www.carehome.co.uk/advice/care-home-fees-and-costs-how-much-do-you-pay

• Over a lifetime, an average household will pay £107,045 of Employee’s National Insurance Contributions."

Source: https://www.taxpayersalliance.com/average_household_will_pay_826_030_in_taxes_over_a_lifetime

So a whole household only pays enough NI to pay for a care home for about 3.1 years for a single individual.  That without putting anything into the NHS or any of the other myriad things NI pays for!  The rest is general taxation.

People who make the claim "I've paid in all my life and deserve my care to be paid for", no, no you don't, unless your earnings have been way up with the 1% of earners in the UK.

Company NI contributions and Corporate taxes pay for most everything.

Yes there are the doleys who just make it all look so unfair, well if that makes you unhappy, get into politics and change it.  Put the single mums on the streets, let the children of doleys go hungry.  The World is not a fair place.

Yours,

RS

 

 

Add to which everyone of us has not paid for the house that we live in only for the mortgage that we took to buy it. The massive house inflation is an ideal way to pay back for care, Capped at the value of the house you mortgaged.

[Scully]

22 minutes ago, Vince Green said:

I don't think he said anything about forcibly did he?

Do you think its acceptable to use a baby as a meal ticket for life?

For many young girls/couples with no qualifications they have absolutely no prospect of ever earning enough to rent or buy a place of their own.

So a baby is the only way they can beat the system and get housed by the council. There are examples of it in my extended family.

And once they are on "the social"  there is virtually no way they will ever get off again, the bar is set too high

The system almost pushes them into it

In that case I’m struggling to think what he meant with his reference to ‘back in the day’ then, which is why I asked. Why don’t you let him answer? 
I’m pretty sure there are those who see a child as a life paid for by the state, but there are also those who don’t. Sweeping generalisations don’t do anyone any favours, nor will returning to church or state sponsored kidnapping. 
 

[discobob]

37 minutes ago, Scully said:

Do you think it is acceptable for single mothers to have their newborns forcibly removed? 

It all depends on the circumstances - if there is no way to support the baby and the mother's/fathers family aren't willing to - then there is a case for adoption to be in the child's best interest. As @Vince Green has stated it should not be a lifestyle choice for people. I know we thought long and hard before deciding that we were in a position to have children - and then it took us another 5 years to conceive.

Lets be straight - if there was no support for single mothers anyway (house/flat - benefits etc) then the instances of girls having children as a choice will fall. Then perhaps we can see availability for proper accommodation and support for battered and abused women and children rather than a lot having to go into hostels.

29 minutes ago, Vince Green said:

I don't think he said anything about forcibly did he?

I didn't - but it still happens in the present day where children/babies are removed from the mother at birth. As I implied above, it should be the very last choice that should be exercised.....but it would have to be on the table to at least be an effective deterrent but there would have to also be exceptions - eg. someone was in a long term committed relationship and then their partner bogs out during the pregnancy then there is a case for abandonment being an exception - but the father will have to pay. If he can't pay - then they were having a child which they couldn't afford to support which goes back to point 1. 

In my case - my biological half brother is legally my Uncle - and it wasn't a Norfolk special - my maternal Grandparents adopted him not long after he was born (in said "home" in Liverpool). 

[TRINITY]

What may help is a single one off payment for sterilisation. Most of these would snap your hand off for a couple of grand to blow for a good time.

Edited September 7, 2021 by TRINITY

[Bigbob]

5 hours ago, Scully said:

And if the family can’t look after her? What happens then? 

So ive worked all my life since i was 15 and they raised the retirement rate to 67 to help pay for the work shy or wee lassies who have child to jump the house queue get everything paid for them 

So due to covid and the working class has the lowest numbers in this country  there going to raise the retirement age raise taxes and national insurance to pay for everything 

Your better off not working in this namby pamby country loafers get everything handed to them , There jobs out there they just dont want to do them . Ive friends and relations that openly say to your face your a mug for working all your life you could be in the bookies down the pub like us . It will never happen but i would love to see dole birds clock on 5 days a week picking up rubbish removing graffiti  like the courts make the bad boys do 

[clangerman]

the biggest drain is not single mothers it’s dead beat parents who take of on their family for some piece of scrag end then avoid paying child support last time i checked tax payers were stung for billions to feed and clothe these kids majority of these scumbags are MALE 

[discobob]

13 minutes ago, clangerman said:

the biggest drain is not single mothers it’s dead beat parents who take of on their family for some piece of scrag end then avoid paying child support last time i checked tax payers were stung for billions to feed and clothe these kids majority of these scumbags are MALE 

Fully agree - and I did cover it a little in my ramblings above about abandonment and fathers having to pay - My dad paid for me all of his life - he ended up in long term psychiatric care when I was young - but he still paid for me from the sale of the house - and my paternal adopted grandparents (they adopted my Dad who was a wartime baby and his biological mothers husband came back and said no way - I think I could claim a USA passport) were the best in the world in my eyes.

[Westward]

Perhaps we should stop talking about NI as if it's a special fund used to pay for things like social care. In reality it's just tax and it goes into the same piggy bank as all the myriad other ways the government uses to pick our pockets.

 

[scolopax]

1.25% on National Insurance increase it is then.   Total life cap of £ 86,000.

[Vince Green]

1 hour ago, clangerman said:

the biggest drain is not single mothers it’s dead beat parents who take of on their family for some piece of scrag end then avoid paying child support last time i checked tax payers were stung for billions to feed and clothe these kids majority of these scumbags are MALE 

True, much more should be done to track down the absentee fathers but it would be an uphill struggle. Perhaps today the DNA databases could be used but it would need a change in the law.

 Some of these blokes are serial offenders. 

[Rewulf]

4 minutes ago, Vince Green said:

Some of these blokes are serial offenders. 

Some of them consider it their civic responsibility to impregnate as many women as possible, and pay nothing toward them.

I know a few, 5 + kids , and proudly claim to have never paid a penny toward, all also claim to be 'amazing dads ' though 

[discobob]

18 minutes ago, Rewulf said:

Some of them consider it their civic responsibility to impregnate as many women as possible, and pay nothing toward them.

I know a few, 5 + kids , and proudly claim to have never paid a penny toward, all also claim to be 'amazing dads ' though 

Do you know my half-brother/Uncle then - as that has been his goal in life - last I knew of it was 7 (and a woman he was with for a while already had 5)

[Vince Green]

17 minutes ago, Rewulf said:

Some of them consider it their civic responsibility to impregnate as many women as possible, and pay nothing toward them.

I know a few, 5 + kids , and proudly claim to have never paid a penny toward, all also claim to be 'amazing dads ' though 

My friend's Dad came from Trinidad in the 1950s, thats about as much as was known about him until recently.

However, a lot of people of Carribean decent are now using Ancestry DNA website to register and it will match you to people who have close family links. Through that he has identified two half sisters and they know of other siblings.

His Dad died years ago but he was an "interesting" character by all accounts  

[Jaymo]

2 hours ago, scolopax said:

1.25% on National Insurance increase it is then.   Total life cap of £ 86,000.

Actually, that’s quite a bargain for most.

The outlay for your own possible future care and potential of gaining massively for any inheritance, which would otherwise be lost under the current system is a potential bargain.

If you think Social charges and taxes here are high, try most of Europe for size and you would be keeping really quiet about the rates we pay. 
 

Think of it as paying for an insurance policy. You hope not to have to use it, but it’s there to catch you.

Like a lot of insurance, you often don’t receive the benefit of paying out your premiums, but many many do benefit. 

Edited September 7, 2021 by Jaymo

[enfieldspares]

20 hours ago, oowee said:

The opportunity to financialy look after the elderly in our population is one that we have dodged for some time. The weight of that obligation should be met accross society but the larger part of that burdon should lie firstly with those using the service. 

Is it right to further burdon our younger generation when they are already paying for the unfunded pensions and benefits of their parents?

No it isn't right. To tax others to pay your parents' bills? 

My mother died in 2014 aged ninety-four and until the week of her death (from hospital pneumonia) after a fall that hospitalised her lived in her own home and had no "social care" input from either the national or local government. We the family looked after her and on the days we were not there her gardener did on a Tuesday and Thursday.

When she died the HMRC estimate for Estate Duty aka "Death Duty" was some £87,000 to be paid. However as a War Widow she in fact was able to claim an exemption from Death Duty (using the 100% exemption from the State benefiting from the death of a someone who gave their life for the country in war) that carried over to her as the "unused" portion of that exemption. As 100% is just that 100%.

What therefore grates most with me is that HMRC expected my dead mother's estate to pay tax to enable someone else to preserve their inheritance from having to be sold to pay the care costs of a parent that they burdened on the State rather than chose to spend money to themselves look after or have looked after.

Don't expect others to pay higher taxes to pay for your parents' social care to save them selling their property that they then no longer live in to pay for it.

You pay your own bills. Don't expect me to.

[Gordon R]

Quote

the biggest drain is not single mothers it’s dead beat parents who take of on their family for some piece of scrag end then avoid paying child support last time i checked tax payers were stung for billions to feed and clothe these kids majority of these scumbags are MALE 

Way off the mark. 

Wouldn't it be nice to sit at a computer, not necessarily in the UK, and start typing. I think I will make a claim for New Tax Credit or Universal Credit which succeeded it. You make one claim, citing your disabled triplets. Then you think - why not two claims, why not ten? When you have made a few hundred claims, do you stop or think maybe I should go for a few hundred more? Once you realise the amount of money being thrown away, Child Support pales into insignificance.  

I await some brave soul telling me that it isn't possible and there are security measures in place. Once I have stopped laughing, I will remind myself of the billions being given away on fraudulent Furlough Scheme claims.

[12gauge82]

9 hours ago, Mungler said:

Don’t get me wrong, tax is a a necessary evil, but as we bloat the government machine and invite it in to run every aspect of our lives, we can’t be surprised at the cost.

No, the likes of Amazon don’t pay a fair amount of tax, but that’s not their fault that is the fault of the current tax systems being incomprehensible to mere mortals and full of loop holes to the mega corporates. 

Frisby in his book seems to think that (old) Hong Kong had the best tax structure - low, fixed, simple and minimal government interference.

Absolutely agree with you there. Just think it's a complex issue with more than one entity milking the system, its certainly not that the working masses aren't paying enough in. But your right, the ultimate blame for all of that is the government and it goes back over many years under many different colours. 

[Bigbob]

Ive a cousin did a years course on gamekeeping the week of the exams devolped a bad back incase he got a job  two girlfriends and two kids later in a free house smokes drives a jeep his wife a 09 plate car  never paid in but takes everything going and knows how to milk the system 

A mates brother got offered a job start on thursday sorry cant do thursday thats my fishing day , Well sod off  free house 11 kids later geos shooting 3 days a week fishing 2 days a week and the other 2 days in the pub 

A mates wife works for the DHSS a single mother in looking for a fridge freezer for her free house kicked off when offered a brown fridge freezer , Im no taking that my kitchens all white , My mates wifes manager said just give her a white unit to keep the peace 

Ive worked since i was 15 when we got married we filled our first house from the auctions till we could afford better never been on the dole when we had the kids i did 12 hour shifts 7 days a week to pay for what they needed wanted i must have mug written on my forehead 

[grahamch]

There is a perfectly simple solution.

Stop p*****g away our hard earned tax pounds on pointless and wasteful overseas aid and use the billions to fund social care at home

 

[GingerCat]

How about cutting the welfare bill, to claim you have have have worked for 5 years and paid taxs. You can claim for 6months. After 6 weeks of no employment you do jobs assigned to you to claim to money ie road sweeping, picking litter etc or no cash. 

Clinton brought it into the states and slashed his welfare bill. 

[mossy835]

we are to soft for that.