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Paying for the care system


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7 hours ago, TRINITY said:

What may help is a single one off payment for sterilisation.

  Why?  It is free on the NHS.

  Maybe nightclubs should have a passport system only allowing in guys that have had the snip, then the girls know it is a free for all with no risks!  Seems to be what they want,

 

RS

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41 minutes ago, Dave-G said:

Anyone know the rough percentage of oldies who paid into the NI end up in a care home

My own parents.

Mum is cared for at home, Dad has had bladder cancer, still dotes on Mum, both in own home but 4 x dialy care.  So it is even worse if you include all the other stuff.

Some very lucky people will grow old and die quietly in ther sleep, but the NHS does its best to stop that happening,

RS

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6 hours ago, Gordon R said:

Way off the mark. 

Wouldn't it be nice to sit at a computer, not necessarily in the UK, and start typing. I think I will make a claim for New Tax Credit or Universal Credit which succeeded it. You make one claim, citing your disabled triplets. Then you think - why not two claims, why not ten? When you have made a few hundred claims, do you stop or think maybe I should go for a few hundred more? Once you realise the amount of money being thrown away, Child Support pales into insignificance.  

I await some brave soul telling me that it isn't possible and there are security measures in place. Once I have stopped laughing, I will remind myself of the billions being given away on fraudulent Furlough Scheme claims.

Absolutely right Gordon, 

The whole benefits system lacks even the most basic safeguards, and bored Civil Servants who have learned years ago not to query the claims they are processing just rubber stamp them through.

To do otherwise would incur the wrath of the several layers of management above them who do absolutely FA for their money and like it that way, Many earning £75k up to £125K for slightly less than nothing.

They are the apple cart that needs tipping over

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11 hours ago, RockySpears said:

My own parents.

Mum is cared for at home, Dad has had bladder cancer, still dotes on Mum, both in own home but 4 x dialy care.  So it is even worse if you include all the other stuff.

Some very lucky people will grow old and die quietly in ther sleep, but the NHS does its best to stop that happening,

RS

My Mother in law this week quoted £235 a night for an overnight carer to do nothing more than come and sleep the night and be "on call" doesn't get her up, wash dress her or give her breakfast. thats extra.

Similarly doesnt get her ready for bed at night. Just turns out the lights and ensure the house is secure

How do they charge this? because they can, because if you don't like it step aside there are plenty more behind you

Edited by Vince Green
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On 06/09/2021 at 22:16, Mungler said:

 

It’s a weird thing - the suggestion that you should only be able to take out of a system that you have actually put into appears to be something no one can dare to suggest anymore. Why? It’s simple physics and economics and it’s a fair approach in dealing with finite resources. It’s not very PC but if I run my life and cut my cloth to suit, why should I or anyone else be asked to support those that abuse the NHS and have never worked a day?

.


 

If we consider the fact that unless your earning over about £40k PA, you get more out than you put in from the structure of society, I would bet that a lot of people who love to shout:

 “I’ve paid my stamp all my life!!” … 

“I’ve worked every day since I left school at age 15…” 

and the,

“we should cut any income to people on benefits / who are a net drain!” 
 

would soon stop.
 

I also bet they’d all go very quiet when told that their life time contributions don’t even start to pay towards their care costs in later life … 
 

Most of the people moaning about it are net drains themselves and most people who have “paid my stamp all my life!” Haven’t paid anywhere near the amount needed to fund every service and provision they have received and then go on to get high quality free nursing home care on top. 
 

 

Oh and as someone who has placed many people in nursing homes, most of them starting off at £1,000+ PER WEEK, the families are never happy with the bog standard ones and always want the top of the range all fancy places pushing £1,300 - £1,500+ PER WEEK. 
 

 

I also find it odd the outrage over the idea of people selling their homes to fund their care. 
 

I think families hide behind this as if something mean is being done to the person. In reality, in most cases, Doris whos 90+, who can’t stand and has to be hoisted and doesn’t know if it’s 1941 or 2021, has no use for the house that she doesn’t even know is her home. 
 

At the point that many people are moving into care and nursing homes it is because they are unable to manage in their homes anymore. 
 

The reality of the situation in many many cases is that the family want the money that the home is worth, and it’s got nothing at all to do with old Doris having to sell her house to pay her care fees. 
 

Just look at the outrage over furlough, where some big companies saved millions on their wage bill whilst making loads of profit. Or some big companies had cuts to their tax bill even when they made record profits. 
People went mad and said they can afford to pay it! 
 

But the thought that old Doris, who owns a 4 bed massive house that she bought back when it cost £5,000… which is now worth £500,000 … should have to sell that house that she no longer lives in or has any need for, to pay her £1,500+ per week nursing home fees is a scandal?! 

I have seen many many families who simply can’t wait to get their relatives out of their own home so they can get it on the market and start cashing in. 

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4 hours ago, Dave-G said:

Anyone know the rough percentage of oldies who paid into the NI end up in a care home VS those who paid the same but didn't get into a home?

 

Of course they still draw a state pension but that's a lot less than care costs. 


The real winners (from the perspective of the state) are those that pay in all their lives, then suddenly drop dead, and never touch the pension or any care fees. 
 

My mate did 25 years at the DVLA. He left at 50 but he worked other jobs and he held off taking his pension until he was 60. He dropped dead at 59 at home following a heart attack. Never got a penny of that pension. 

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2 hours ago, Surfer said:

Yes for over 80 hrs a week average 


So your in the top 5% of all earners in the U.K…

 

Would you give up your current life, everything you’ve achieved etc, to live on the dole, live in a small property on a council estate, surrounded by people who are unemployed, have lots of social issues, just so you can kick back and think “ah yes! I’m getting it all for free! I’ve made it!” 
 

I bet you can’t wait to be drinking pints at 10am down Weatherspoons surrounded by alcoholics and down and outers … 🤷‍♂️

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5 hours ago, Lloyd90 said:

I have seen many many families who simply can’t wait to get their relatives out of their own home so they can get it on the market and start cashing in. 

This. Mostly usually Daily Mail readers with sharp shoulders and a sense of entitlement. Forgetting conveniently about what they've had for free at other's expense.

For (those old enough to remember it) that many of Doris's cohort will very likely have benefited from MIRAS (Mortgage Interest Relief At Source) subsidised by those taxpayers who never could afford to have a mortgage but rented.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mortgage_interest_relief_at_source

And much of the money she did put aside on her mortgage will, again, be money she saved on her two children's university education subsidised (again) by those who left school at fifteen and went to work. Not only have free university tuition but also those children benefitting from a lovcal authority funded student grant.

Those Daily Mail readers always referring to someone else who has their snouts on the trough conveniently forgetting what they themselves got off some other tax or ratepayer's back.

Edited by enfieldspares
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5 hours ago, Lloyd90 said:


 

If we consider the fact that unless your earning over about £40k PA, you get more out than you put in from the structure of society, I would bet that a lot of people who love to shout:

 “I’ve paid my stamp all my life!!” … 

“I’ve worked every day since I left school at age 15…” 

and the,

“we should cut any income to people on benefits / who are a net drain!” 
 

would soon stop.
 

I also bet they’d all go very quiet when told that their life time contributions don’t even start to pay towards their care costs in later life … 
 

Most of the people moaning about it are net drains themselves and most people who have “paid my stamp all my life!” Haven’t paid anywhere near the amount needed to fund every service and provision they have received and then go on to get high quality free nursing home care on top. 
 

 

Oh and as someone who has placed many people in nursing homes, most of them starting off at £1,000+ PER WEEK, the families are never happy with the bog standard ones and always want the top of the range all fancy places pushing £1,300 - £1,500+ PER WEEK. 
 

 

I also find it odd the outrage over the idea of people selling their homes to fund their care. 
 

I think families hide behind this as if something mean is being done to the person. In reality, in most cases, Doris whos 90+, who can’t stand and has to be hoisted and doesn’t know if it’s 1941 or 2021, has no use for the house that she doesn’t even know is her home. 
 

At the point that many people are moving into care and nursing homes it is because they are unable to manage in their homes anymore. 
 

The reality of the situation in many many cases is that the family want the money that the home is worth, and it’s got nothing at all to do with old Doris having to sell her house to pay her care fees. 
 

Just look at the outrage over furlough, where some big companies saved millions on their wage bill whilst making loads of profit. Or some big companies had cuts to their tax bill even when they made record profits. 
People went mad and said they can afford to pay it! 
 

But the thought that old Doris, who owns a 4 bed massive house that she bought back when it cost £5,000… which is now worth £500,000 … should have to sell that house that she no longer lives in or has any need for, to pay her £1,500+ per week nursing home fees is a scandal?! 

I have seen many many families who simply can’t wait to get their relatives out of their own home so they can get it on the market and start cashing in. 

This idea that unless you earn over 40k your a net drain is a load of nonsense. Money is nothing more than a token or iou allowing people to swap skills. 

The amount people get paid often has very little to do with how hard they work or how important their job is to society and is usually simple supply and demand. 

If most of the population died tomorrow, it'd be many of the top earners in society who's jobs would not be necessary. Look what happened with Covid, it was key workers, most of which were paid less than 40k who were needed to keep the country moving. So when you claim those paid under 40k are a net drain it's a absolute nonsense, those paid over 40k almost always have their wage propped up by those below them, so when we're talking a society wide problem like care for the elderly, those sub 40k earners (of which I am not one, though I was once) have paid every bit of the way via their labour, the money is irrelevant as without them we wouldn't have a society left to look after. 

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7 hours ago, Lloyd90 said:


 

If we consider the fact that unless your earning over about £40k PA, you get more out than you put in from the structure of society, I would bet that a lot of people who love to shout:

 “I’ve paid my stamp all my life!!” … 

“I’ve worked every day since I left school at age 15…” 

and the,

“we should cut any income to people on benefits / who are a net drain!” 
 

would soon stop.
 

I also bet they’d all go very quiet when told that their life time contributions don’t even start to pay towards their care costs in later life … 
 

Most of the people moaning about it are net drains themselves and most people who have “paid my stamp all my life!” Haven’t paid anywhere near the amount needed to fund every service and provision they have received and then go on to get high quality free nursing home care on top. 
 

 

Oh and as someone who has placed many people in nursing homes, most of them starting off at £1,000+ PER WEEK, the families are never happy with the bog standard ones and always want the top of the range all fancy places pushing £1,300 - £1,500+ PER WEEK. 
 

 

I also find it odd the outrage over the idea of people selling their homes to fund their care. 
 

I think families hide behind this as if something mean is being done to the person. In reality, in most cases, Doris whos 90+, who can’t stand and has to be hoisted and doesn’t know if it’s 1941 or 2021, has no use for the house that she doesn’t even know is her home. 
 

At the point that many people are moving into care and nursing homes it is because they are unable to manage in their homes anymore. 
 

The reality of the situation in many many cases is that the family want the money that the home is worth, and it’s got nothing at all to do with old Doris having to sell her house to pay her care fees. 
 

Just look at the outrage over furlough, where some big companies saved millions on their wage bill whilst making loads of profit. Or some big companies had cuts to their tax bill even when they made record profits. 
People went mad and said they can afford to pay it! 
 

But the thought that old Doris, who owns a 4 bed massive house that she bought back when it cost £5,000… which is now worth £500,000 … should have to sell that house that she no longer lives in or has any need for, to pay her £1,500+ per week nursing home fees is a scandal?! 

I have seen many many families who simply can’t wait to get their relatives out of their own home so they can get it on the market and start cashing in. 

Exactly this. 

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6 hours ago, Lloyd90 said:


So your in the top 5% of all earners in the U.K…

 

Would you give up your current life, everything you’ve achieved etc, to live on the dole, live in a small property on a council estate, surrounded by people who are unemployed, have lots of social issues, just so you can kick back and think “ah yes! I’m getting it all for free! I’ve made it!” 
 

I bet you can’t wait to be drinking pints at 10am down Weatherspoons surrounded by alcoholics and down and outers … 🤷‍♂️

I did live on a council estate in a house I was buying surrounded by drinkers on it all day still doing 80+hours a week take home pay after deductions £9.98 an hour ,saving for somewhere else and moved .

now because I’ve put the hard work in for years if I have any assets over £20k I will get means tested help while those that have done jack all don’t pay a bean 

if I do really well and hit a jackpot of money and never have to worry I’ll only have to pay £86k in my life time if I got millions of pounds it’s £86k

so pension will be getting cashed in house sold and money spunked up the wall before I need help and live in a dream world for a few weeks 

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8 hours ago, Lloyd90 said:

I also find it odd the outrage over the idea of people selling their homes to fund their care. 
I think families hide behind this as if something mean is being done to the person. In reality, in most cases, Doris whos 90+, who can’t stand and has to be hoisted and doesn’t know if it’s 1941 or 2021, has no use for the house that she doesn’t even know is her home. 
At the point that many people are moving into care and nursing homes it is because they are unable to manage in their homes anymore. 
The reality of the situation in many many cases is that the family want the money that the home is worth, and it’s got nothing at all to do with old Doris having to sell her house to pay her care fees. 
But the thought that old Doris, who owns a 4 bed massive house that she bought back when it cost £5,000… which is now worth £500,000 … should have to sell that house that she no longer lives in or has any need for, to pay her £1,500+ per week nursing home fees is a scandal?! 

I have seen many many families who simply can’t wait to get their relatives out of their own home so they can get it on the market and start cashing in. 

This ^^^^^ 

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2 hours ago, enfieldspares said:

For (those old enough to remember it) that many of Doris's cohort will very likely have benefited from MIRAS (Mortgage Interest Relief At Source) subsidised by those taxpayers who never could afford to have a mortgage but rented.

I remember that - everyone was entitled to it - and we had it on our first home which was in Oxfordshire. I would have thought that it helped more people to buy homes as it would have helped with affordability of paying the mortgage.

In this country as a permanent employee the only thing that you can claim back is pension and charity although a majority of these are done at source now whereas in the US you can claim a lot more back - https://www.forbes.com/advisor/taxes/12-common-deductions-you-can-write-off-on-your-taxes/

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2 hours ago, Surfer said:

I did live on a council estate in a house I was buying surrounded by drinkers on it all day still doing 80+hours a week take home pay after deductions £9.98 an hour ,saving for somewhere else and moved .

now because I’ve put the hard work in for years if I have any assets over £20k I will get means tested help while those that have done jack all don’t pay a bean 

if I do really well and hit a jackpot of money and never have to worry I’ll only have to pay £86k in my life time if I got millions of pounds it’s £86k

so pension will be getting cashed in house sold and money spunked up the wall before I need help and live in a dream world for a few weeks 


If you actually read into the small print, they have changed the way your “care fees” are worked out. 
 

They no longer count living in the residential or nursing home as care and it now counts as accommodation, which you still continue to pay for, even after you have passed the £86,000 cap. 
 

The only real different I can see in real terms is that people who own their own homes but don’t have a lot of cash in the bank, will have the costs of their care at home (home care with people coming into the home they own) putting a charge on their home, which the government will want paid back when the person dies. 
 

Currently someone’s house isn’t counted as an asset when considering paying towards their care fees as long as they live in that home. 
 

Currently there are a lot of people getting care for free, because they have cash savings under £23,250 in their bank, but they are living in houses worth hundreds of thousands of pounds. 

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1 hour ago, discobob said:

I would have thought that it helped more people to buy homes as it would have helped with affordability of paying the mortgage.

  These things are not good, well, for the individual, yes, but really they just raise house prices even faster.  Today there are loads of Taxpayer funded "helping hands" for 1st time buyers, but what this does is it increases the pool of people able to buy a house, ie creates more Demand in a world of finite supply.  The only solution to the housing problem is more houses being built.  Maybe a Pandemic that lives up to the hype and killed off a few millions would do the trick or maybe stop with the 100,000 immigrants each year.  Although then we would need to get back to having kids again to keep the population going,

 

RS

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9 hours ago, Lloyd90 said:


The real winners (from the perspective of the state) are those that pay in all their lives, then suddenly drop dead, and never touch the pension or any care fees. 
 

My mate did 25 years at the DVLA. He left at 50 but he worked other jobs and he held off taking his pension until he was 60. He dropped dead at 59 at home following a heart attack. Never got a penny of that pension. 

As to your DVLA friend, it is not clear whether you are referring to his Civil Service Pension or his State Pension. 

If it is the state pension then, unfortunately for us all, it doesn’t work that way. The tax and NI we pay throughout our working lives does not go in to a personal pot for each of us to draw on when that time comes. For example, those contributing through the 70’s, 80’s and 90’s were not creating “their” pot. They were funding the pensions of pensioners that existed then. So, sadly, there was no personal state pension for your friend to get a penny from. 

And this system creates the well known problem. As the ageing population increases both in numbers and life expectancy and the working population decreases the day to day NI collected falls short of the pension funding required. Hence the increase NI contributions and extending the retirement age. But if the latter continues then we’ll all be dead before we can receive any state pension. Perhaps that’s the plan !!

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