Paying for the care system

[Lloyd90]

4 minutes ago, Bobba said:

As to your DVLA friend, it is not clear whether you are referring to his Civil Service Pension or his State Pension. 

If it is the state pension then, unfortunately for us all, it doesn’t work that way. The tax and NI we pay throughout our working lives does not go in to a personal pot for each of us to draw on when that time comes. For example, those contributing through the 70’s, 80’s and 90’s were not creating “their” pot. They were funding the pensions of pensioners that existed then. So, sadly, there was no personal state pension for your friend to get a penny from. 

And this system creates the well known problem. As the ageing population increases both in numbers and life expectancy and the working population decreases the day to day NI collected falls short of the pension funding required. Hence the increase NI contributions and extending the retirement age. But if the latter continues then we’ll all be dead before we can receive any state pension. Perhaps that’s the plan !!

Yes that was sort of my point. 
 

I know he didn’t have a pot form his NI, but he paid in all his life then never got anything back pension wise. 
 

That applies to both his government pension and his civil service one. 
 

For every person who pays in all their life then dies before they ever get anything back, they are basically subsidising everyone else. 

[Surfer]

42 minutes ago, Lloyd90 said:

If you actually read into the small print, they have changed the way your “care fees” are worked out. 
 

They no longer count living in the residential or nursing home as care and it now counts as accommodation, which you still continue to pay for, even after you have passed the £86,000 cap. 
 

The only real different I can see in real terms is that people who own their own homes but don’t have a lot of cash in the bank, will have the costs of their care at home (home care with people coming into the home they own) putting a charge on their home, which the government will want paid back when the person dies. 
 

Currently someone’s house isn’t counted as an asset when considering paying towards their care fees as long as they live in that home. 
 

Currently there are a lot of people getting care for free, because they have cash savings under £23,250 in their bank, but they are living in houses worth hundreds of thousands of pounds. 

So either way we’re stuffed then unless we have nothing to give or never done a days graft in our lives 

[Lloyd90]

39 minutes ago, Surfer said:

So either way we’re stuffed then unless we have nothing to give or never done a days graft in our lives 

Not really, not from what I have seen in my experience. 
 

I have worked with lots of families and people moving into care homes. 
 

Some LA’s are being hard on people who haven’t paid anything or have no money to pay towards their care and they are being placed in the lowest cost care home available. 
 

People who are self funders or who can pay a top up on the LA paid care get a lot more choice and often nicer/better care homes. 
 

Up North many people are being placed in care homes a few hours drive away from their families, not great but the care homes are a lot cheaper. 

[Newbie to this]

6 hours ago, Newbie to this said:

9.5 million of working age on benefits.

 

[12gauge82]

The other one is some care home owners who are charging an arm and a leg for a poor level of service. Basically a licence to print money. 

[oowee]

18 minutes ago, 12gauge82 said:

The other one is some care home owners who are charging an arm and a leg for a poor level of service. Basically a licence to print money. 

You would expecgt a decent return given the level of investment required. 

I don't know the situation now but when I worked for Birmingham we had a whole raft of these businesses going under in the early 2000's. It seemed that we were forever bailing them out and taking them into public ownership.

[Lloyd90]

23 minutes ago, 12gauge82 said:

The other one is some care home owners who are charging an arm and a leg for a poor level of service. Basically a licence to print money. 

 

What level of return would be acceptable for care home owners to make? 5% profit? 10% profit? 

 

I have a family member who was very fortunate and now lives off his investments. 
 

He gets well over 10% return on his investment for doing absolutely nothing. Just puts the money in the investment firm / bank and someone else manages it, takes a fee and pays him out what he lives off etc. 
 

He literally does nothing, but clears well over 10% PA. 
 

Opening a large care home costs millions. The building alone costs millions, and has to be up to regulations and codes. Many of the old care homes that were converted from hotels, B&B’s and and bedsits closed down as they were too expensive to bring up to modern regulations. 
 

 

Now, can you tell me where we can find people who are willing to invest millions of pounds, without wanting to make a profit on it? 
 

That’s without the fact that running the care home is a massive undertaking, constant issues and no time off. 
 

I know many managers who have quit and said they won’t go back, as it’s 24/7. 
 

The LA’s don’t have the money to build and run new care homes. 
 

 

 

It’s the same as any business. If you have £5,000,000 to invest to give you a return, buying and running a care homes would be a nightmare for most people. 

[oowee]

2 hours ago, RockySpears said:

  These things are not good, well, for the individual, yes, but really they just raise house prices even faster.  Today there are loads of Taxpayer funded "helping hands" for 1st time buyers, but what this does is it increases the pool of people able to buy a house, ie creates more Demand in a world of finite supply.  The only solution to the housing problem is more houses being built.  Maybe a Pandemic that lives up to the hype and killed off a few millions would do the trick or maybe stop with the 100,000 immigrants each year.  Although then we would need to get back to having kids again to keep the population going,

 

RS

This is exactly right. When I worked for the Homes and Community Dept of Govt this was forever being flagged up in analysis that we did of new funding proposals. It was continuously ignored as were the proposals that were put forward for increasing the number of new homes built through greater market intervention.

The biggest increase in demand is people living longer and smaller households (single occupants).

 

[henry d]

49 minutes ago, Newbie to this said:

 

What kind of benefits? Job seekers, income support, carers, DLA, state pension etc etc? Have a guess which one has the most claimants!

[discobob]

3 hours ago, Lloyd90 said:

If you actually read into the small print, they have changed the way your “care fees” are worked out. 
 

They no longer count living in the residential or nursing home as care and it now counts as accommodation, which you still continue to pay for, even after you have passed the £86,000 cap. 

and there we go - don't read the headline - look at the small print and you find that it is all smoke and mirrors along with semantics - and basically a big lie relying on obfuscation of what the actual reality is - you will still lose everything while you have supported the feckless all your life - almost makes you want to get terminal cancer as that is excluded along with heart problems

[Gordon R]

Quote

What kind of benefits? Job seekers, income support, carers, DLA, state pension etc etc? Have a guess which one has the most claimants!

My off the cuff guess would be state pension. Have a guess which has the highest loss due to fraud.

[discobob]

3 hours ago, RockySpears said:

Although then we would need to get back to having kids again to keep the population going

You mean to feed the Ponzi Scheme that is the pension and benefits set up in this country!!!

[Lloyd90]

43 minutes ago, discobob said:

and there we go - don't read the headline - look at the small print and you find that it is all smoke and mirrors along with semantics - and basically a big lie relying on obfuscation of what the actual reality is - you will still lose everything while you have supported the feckless all your life - almost makes you want to get terminal cancer as that is excluded along with heart problems

 

I’ve just had a more thorough look: 

 

I apologise I made a mistake earlier, it does appear that as long as you continue to live in your own home it won’t be counted as an asset to pay towards the costs of your care fees in your own home, but other assets will. 
 

I was however correct that the living costs and food costs of the care home if you get to one will no longer count as care and you continue to pay for that after hitting the cap. 

[Newbie to this]

4 hours ago, henry d said:

What kind of benefits? Job seekers, income support, carers, DLA, state pension etc etc? Have a guess which one has the most claimants!

The one that gets the most people off Job seeker's allowance, and as such, off the official unemployed numbers!

Oh and definitely not state pension, read the post "of working age"

12.5 million on state pension.

22.5 million on some form of benefit.

Edited September 8, 2021 by Newbie to this

[discobob]

2 hours ago, Lloyd90 said:

 

I’ve just had a more thorough look: 

 

I apologise I made a mistake earlier, it does appear that as long as you continue to live in your own home it won’t be counted as an asset to pay towards the costs of your care fees in your own home, but other assets will. 
 

I was however correct that the living costs and food costs of the care home if you get to one will no longer count as care and you continue to pay for that after hitting the cap. 

Smoke and mirrors - separating the costs and care and then banging the drum "CARE COSTS COVERED AFTER £86K" but you will still be screwed by accommodation fees

[12gauge82]

3 hours ago, Lloyd90 said:

 

What level of return would be acceptable for care home owners to make? 5% profit? 10% profit? 

 

I have a family member who was very fortunate and now lives off his investments. 
 

He gets well over 10% return on his investment for doing absolutely nothing. Just puts the money in the investment firm / bank and someone else manages it, takes a fee and pays him out what he lives off etc. 
 

He literally does nothing, but clears well over 10% PA. 
 

Opening a large care home costs millions. The building alone costs millions, and has to be up to regulations and codes. Many of the old care homes that were converted from hotels, B&B’s and and bedsits closed down as they were too expensive to bring up to modern regulations. 
 

 

Now, can you tell me where we can find people who are willing to invest millions of pounds, without wanting to make a profit on it? 
 

That’s without the fact that running the care home is a massive undertaking, constant issues and no time off. 
 

I know many managers who have quit and said they won’t go back, as it’s 24/7. 
 

The LA’s don’t have the money to build and run new care homes. 
 

 

 

It’s the same as any business. If you have £5,000,000 to invest to give you a return, buying and running a care homes would be a nightmare for most people. 

It should be government run not for profit. I'm all for private business but the moment you run care or the like privately profits and bottom lines will always come first. Same as I disagree with private prisons or policing, some things should be in the public domain. 

[Scully]

On 07/09/2021 at 12:54, Bigbob said:

So ive worked all my life since i was 15 and they raised the retirement rate to 67 to help pay for the work shy or wee lassies who have child to jump the house queue get everything paid for them 

So due to covid and the working class has the lowest numbers in this country  there going to raise the retirement age raise taxes and national insurance to pay for everything 

Your better off not working in this namby pamby country loafers get everything handed to them , There jobs out there they just dont want to do them . Ive friends and relations that openly say to your face your a mug for working all your life you could be in the bookies down the pub like us . It will never happen but i would love to see dole birds clock on 5 days a week picking up rubbish removing graffiti  like the courts make the bad boys do 

There are countless flaws with your argument, and most stem ( as do others in the same vein as this topic ) from the resentment that someone is getting something for nothing ‘ while I’ve worked all my life for what I have’. 
If you want the lifestyle that includes you sitting outside the pub while ( the state ) everyone else funds it, then there’s nothing stopping you from having it really. I see them all the time, the regulars in the ‘Monday club’ sat outside the pub. It’s not the lifestyle I want for myself which is why I work. 
Anyhow, back on track, just one of many queries I have regarding your proposals, how do you go about proving that the young girl who got pregnant, got pregnant deliberately? 

[Cosmicblue]

I didn't vote Conservative last time around over Brexit and now I'm getting shafted again for another £100/month NI.  Oh so pleased.

[Yellow Bear]

57 minutes ago, Cosmicblue said:

I didn't vote Conservative last time around over Brexit and now I'm getting shafted again for another £100/month NI.  Oh so pleased.

If you are going to play this one "I did not vote Labour in 1997 and got stung for more than £100 per month on a much lower salary and with a 15% lower population"

[Bigbob]

1 hour ago, Scully said:

There are countless flaws with your argument, and most stem ( as do others in the same vein as this topic ) from the resentment that someone is getting something for nothing ‘ while I’ve worked all my life for what I have’. 
If you want the lifestyle that includes you sitting outside the pub while ( the state ) everyone else funds it, then there’s nothing stopping you from having it really. I see them all the time, the regulars in the ‘Monday club’ sat outside the pub. It’s not the lifestyle I want for myself which is why I work. 
Anyhow, back on track, just one of many queries I have regarding your proposals, how do you go about proving that the young girl who got pregnant, got pregnant deliberately? 

Her family provide for her weather she got pregnant accidently or deliberately 

[oowee]

4 minutes ago, Bigbob said:

Her family provide for her weather she got pregnant accidently or deliberately 

What? 

[Lloyd90]

1 hour ago, Cosmicblue said:

I didn't vote Conservative last time around over Brexit and now I'm getting shafted again for another £100/month NI.  Oh so pleased.

Your going to pay ‘another £100/month NI’ ? 
 

It must be nice to be earning over £100,000 a year. 

18 minutes ago, Bigbob said:

Her family provide for her weather she got pregnant accidently or deliberately 

It must be nice to live a life where you think everyone has a nice family that they can just automatically fall back on in times of need. 
 

If that was true, why don’t all the homeless just go and live with their families instead of being homeless? Should their families provide for them? 
 

 

[Vince Green]

9 hours ago, Lloyd90 said:

 

What level of return would be acceptable for care home owners to make? 5% profit? 10% profit? 

 

I have a family member who was very fortunate and now lives off his investments. 
 

He gets well over 10% return on his investment for doing absolutely nothing. Just puts the money in the investment firm / bank and someone else manages it, takes a fee and pays him out what he lives off etc. 
 

He literally does nothing, but clears well over 10% PA. 
 

Opening a large care home costs millions. The building alone costs millions, and has to be up to regulations and codes. Many of the old care homes that were converted from hotels, B&B’s and and bedsits closed down as they were too expensive to bring up to modern regulations. 
 

 

Now, can you tell me where we can find people who are willing to invest millions of pounds, without wanting to make a profit on it? 
 

That’s without the fact that running the care home is a massive undertaking, constant issues and no time off. 
 

I know many managers who have quit and said they won’t go back, as it’s 24/7. 
 

The LA’s don’t have the money to build and run new care homes. 
 

 

 

It’s the same as any business. If you have £5,000,000 to invest to give you a return, buying and running a care homes would be a nightmare for most people. 

I used to shoot with a man, he was a friend of a friend. Huge house in very posh suburb of London. Flash cars, kids privately educated, Never seemed to be unavailable for leisure activities like golf or shooting,

Turned out he owned a couple of care homes.

There are still lots of private care homes round here in converted big old houses. Many seem poorly run and poorly maintained, Run on a shoe string but still charging well over £1000 a week, And I absolutely Know they have to pay backhanders to council  officials for referrals because this friend of mine said so openly in a slightly ungarded moment.

The investors guides suggest you should expect to get around 18% ROI from a care home .

Edited September 8, 2021 by Vince Green

[Lloyd90]

11 minutes ago, Vince Green said:

I used to shoot with a man, he was a friend of a friend. Huge house in very posh suburb of London. Flash cars, kids privately educated, Never seemed to be unavailable for leisure activities like golf or shooting,

Turned out he owned a couple of care homes.

There are still lots of private care homes round here in converted big old houses. Many seem poorly run and poorly maintained, Run on a shoe string but still charging well over £1000 a week, And I absolutely Know they have to pay backhanders to council  officials for referrals because this friend of mine said so  openly

The investors guides suggest you should expect to get around 18% ROI from a care home .

When I worked for the LA on a major project setting up new supported livings for a group of disabled young people the investment company that would front the money to build the house wanted 17% interest on the initial loan. 
 

The building alone was over £1,000,000. 
 

That’s without finding, employing and paying a massive number of staff. 
The start up costs with first year wages was well over £1,500,000. 
 

Its also classed as a high risk industry as many homes fail every year. 
 

 

 

Your friend of a friend either worked very hard to begin with to get those care homes, or someone else did to set them up and gave them to him, or he simply had the money and bought them and stuck someone in to run them.

 

If it wasn’t care homes it would have been some other investment. 

[Vince Green]

9 hours ago, Lloyd90 said:

 

What level of return would be acceptable for care home owners to make? 5% profit? 10% profit? 

 

I

The official figure for care homes is 18%

Built largely on the fact they pay **** wages to staff and cut corners with food, and almost everything else you can think of