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Halal and kosher meat


12gauge82
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Just now, clangerman said:

another idea from someone who doesn’t live in the real world nobody will turn a cheaper price down even if it says killed with a blunt spoon on the label 

I don't know but I wouldn't have thought it'd make much difference to the price if a cow, pig or sheep is stunned before slaughter and even if it did, if it wasn't a big difference, I think people would pay it, if you look at eggs, the vast majority sold now are free range, despite being a fair bit more expensive. 

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12 minutes ago, ditchman said:

will we have to stun Trout when we catch them before we jag a knife up their gill slits..........

lets see where this bill goes

it would be difficult to stun a pheasant before you kill it

If your first action is to kill it it doesn't need stunning, plus the rule don't apply to animals taken in the wild.

25 minutes ago, 12gauge82 said:

A new bill is being considered over humanely slaughtered meat which would label non stunned meat allowing the consumer to choose. If passed I think this would be an excellent law that is well overdue. 

 

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9987621/Welfare-labels-meat-say-animal-killed.html

Most but not all Halal meat is stunned before killing, but I believe for kosher or shechita sluaghter the animal has to be conscious. 

That was a good idea years ago it ment people didn't eat sick animals but there is no need for it now!

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56 minutes ago, ditchman said:

will we have to stun Trout when we catch them before we jag a knife up their gill slits..........

lets see where this bill goes

it would be difficult to stun a pheasant before you kill it

I don't believe there will be any mission creep with this legislation. I personally don't see any issue with giving the public the choice to decide if they want to buy humanely slaughtered meat. 

Shooting wild animals (or semi wild in the case of pheasants) is a very different kettle of fish and I don't think there's a more humane way to put meat on the table than bagging a wild rabbit for the pot, or stalking a deer for the table. 

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1 hour ago, ditchman said:

would be difficult to stun a pheasant before you kill it

Not really mate everyone I've shot are stunned I actually managed to hit them as I'm sure they fly past thinking oh it's him we're safe he's a carp shot he had 2 goes at me last time 

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I have always found it odd the amount of outrage at Halal meat from people who hunt and fish. 
 

First deer I ever shot was hit and dropped on the spot, we went over after a short wait it was unfortunately still alive, took out the knife and cut the throat and it was dead in seconds, very efficient quick death. 
 

I have seen a lot of lads who will go out and hunt game with running dogs, happily fish and kill them, and shoot game birds and deer, but condemn Halal meat. 
 

I do genuinely have to scratch my head and ask, is all the fuss because it’s for Muslims? 
 

I don’t believe that everyone who is against Halal meat is anti-Muslim, but I’d bet money it’s the reason for some people’s dislike of it! 

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10 hours ago, Lloyd90 said:

I have always found it odd the amount of outrage at Halal meat from people who hunt and fish. 
 

First deer I ever shot was hit and dropped on the spot, we went over after a short wait it was unfortunately still alive, took out the knife and cut the throat and it was dead in seconds, very efficient quick death. 
 

I have seen a lot of lads who will go out and hunt game with running dogs, happily fish and kill them, and shoot game birds and deer, but condemn Halal meat. 
 

I do genuinely have to scratch my head and ask, is all the fuss because it’s for Muslims? 
 

I don’t believe that everyone who is against Halal meat is anti-Muslim, but I’d bet money it’s the reason for some people’s dislike of it! 

 

I'm not anti-muslim or any religion only the radicals (but that's another post and it covers ALL religions) but don't like the idea of killing an animal without stunning, when shooting game and deer the idea is a quick clean efficient kill (I know it doesn't happen every time but that's the idea). I will probably take flak from some on this but I'm also against hunting with dogs for the same reason (the world has moved on).

Just to add I'm also against the live export of animals as that also has unnecessary suffering, I know they are bred for food but we can do our best to be ethical in the way we treat them.

Edited by Deker
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9 hours ago, Lloyd90 said:

I do genuinely have to scratch my head and ask, is all the fuss because it’s for Muslims? 
 

I don’t believe that everyone who is against Halal meat is anti-Muslim, but I’d bet money it’s the reason for some people’s dislike of it! 

The issue for me, and for the others who think about the slaughter process, is the degree of stress that the cows undergo leading up to the actual killing. Remember that these animals are in a long queue slowly proceeding to the point of killing and may well (in fact some are) become aware of what is happening. I would think that pre-stunning would reduce overall stress and duration thereof. The killing is the least pleasant part of an industrial process whereby " meat manufacturers" expedite the delivery of flesh in a package onto a supermarket fridge shelf.

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10 hours ago, Lloyd90 said:

I have always found it odd the amount of outrage at Halal meat from people who hunt and fish. 
 

First deer I ever shot was hit and dropped on the spot, we went over after a short wait it was unfortunately still alive, took out the knife and cut the throat and it was dead in seconds, very efficient quick death. 
 

I have seen a lot of lads who will go out and hunt game with running dogs, happily fish and kill them, and shoot game birds and deer, but condemn Halal meat. 
 

I do genuinely have to scratch my head and ask, is all the fuss because it’s for Muslims? 
 

I don’t believe that everyone who is against Halal meat is anti-Muslim, but I’d bet money it’s the reason for some people’s dislike of it! 

Going by your analogy would you hunt deer in an enclosed space by cornering it and slitting its throat? 

As hunters we go to extraordinary lengths to ensure the most humane kill possible, I've not taken many shots I didn't feel very confident wouldn't end in a humane death. 

I believe we owe to the animals we hunt and rear for our consumption, the most humane death we can give them and I don't see what's wrong with that view? 

Just to add, I posted my reply before reading the very well written posts from Deker and harkom and they mirror my thoughts exactly. 

I really am supprised any shooters and country men wouldn't be behind legislation allowing people to choose, remember its not a ban (although I think it should be imo) but legislation forcing manufacturers to label their products so people can choose for themselves. 

Edited by 12gauge82
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2 hours ago, harkom said:

The issue for me, and for the others who think about the slaughter process, is the degree of stress that the cows undergo leading up to the actual killing. Remember that these animals are in a long queue slowly proceeding to the point of killing and may well (in fact some are) become aware of what is happening. I would think that pre-stunning would reduce overall stress and duration thereof. The killing is the least pleasant part of an industrial process whereby " meat manufacturers" expedite the delivery of flesh in a package onto a supermarket fridge shelf.


I could understand that argument if that stunning happened before going into the slaughter house, but doesn’t it happen literally just before they cut the throat? 
 

So they still experience the same long queue, are still aware of what is going on etc? (Sorry if I have misunderstood). 

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2 hours ago, 12gauge82 said:

Going by your analogy would you hunt deer in an enclosed space by cornering it and slitting its throat?


Is that how it works in an abattoir? A bunch of blokes chasing a cow around a big open space trying to corner them before slitting their throats? (Obviously I am joking!). 
 

As I understand it, the cows walk through a production line, can only walk in a straight line, get their throat cut and then get tipped upside down. 
 

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3 hours ago, Lloyd90 said:


Is that how it works in an abattoir? A bunch of blokes chasing a cow around a big open space trying to corner them before slitting their throats? (Obviously I am joking!). 
 

As I understand it, the cows walk through a production line, can only walk in a straight line, get their throat cut and then get tipped upside down. 
 

I agree, is that how you hunt deer in the wild? Or could it be that your analogy had no relevance to my thread about labeling non stunned meat? 

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18 hours ago, Lloyd90 said:

I have always found it odd the amount of outrage at Halal meat from people who hunt and fish. 
 

And it's how all meat was slaughtered in the British Isles when I was a kid in the mid-1960s when the local village butcher used to kill his own. Captive bolt Cash or similar and then bled by cutting the throat. And if no Cash then just the knife alone. It probably wasn't right back then and probably isn't right today but regardless in this United Kingdom it should be one law for all. No "faith" exceptions for either Hebrew or Muslim.

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It should be remembered that this debate has nothing to do with the welfare or pain of the animal. It's about religion. The period between having it's throat cut and unconsciousness might be fairly short (Unless you're the animal with it's throat cut) but it's there and it's not necessary.

Deker has already pointed out the suffering caused by the live transporting of animals and I can only conclude, and I may be wrong, that the reason is so the animals can be slaughtered religiously.

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These "rights" of religious slaughter are based on ancient historic "beliefs" - or mumbo-jumbo - and really have no place in modern day society. Government is currently reviewing legislation relating to all animals -wild and domestic -  on the basis of sentience....ie a form of animal rights. If animals are going to be allowed rights, then surely a demise involving a minimum of stress and unpleasantness should be the number one priority on the list for these creatures which serve mankind by providing sustenance.

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2 hours ago, Lloyd90 said:

🤣🤣🤣

So that's your contribution then, not much of an argument for your point 😜 Glad it amused you though 👍

36 minutes ago, harkom said:

These "rights" of religious slaughter are based on ancient historic "beliefs" - or mumbo-jumbo - and really have no place in modern day society. Government is currently reviewing legislation relating to all animals -wild and domestic -  on the basis of sentience....ie a form of animal rights. If animals are going to be allowed rights, then surely a demise involving a minimum of stress and unpleasantness should be the number one priority on the list for these creatures which serve mankind by providing sustenance.

I believe its what hunters have done since the dawn of time. I've shot plenty in my time, but anyone who gets pleasure from watching an animal suffer more than necessary needs to see a doctor and no shooter I ever met has made me believe different. 

This legislation if passed will be another benefit of Brexit, as I believe it is only possible due to us leaving the EU. 

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As far as I can see the legislation is a good thing. A ban on non stun slaughter would be better,  there is no NEED not to in a slaughter house.

I see no reason why in a slaughter house they don't have to work to guide line as high as I have to when carrying out emergency slaughter (for emergency slaughter they are guide lines as it is not always possible to follow them 100%)

3 hours ago, GingerCat said:

Given the amount they currently write on food labelling it's a miracle it's not mandatory to list it already. 

Unfortunately a lot of food labelling isn't as clear as you might think, having the union flag all over the label or even the words produced in the UK  doesn't mean it was , well produced in the UK it may have just been minced and put in the packaging  if minced meat. it could have been born, brought up and killed anywhere.  

 

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I don't stun my fish before I bleed them to death, no prayers, no stunning, what's the problem?

They are panicking before bleeding, bleeding is not as swift as slaughterhouse, I do it as it gives a better flavour and the fish dies within a few seconds; ethically what is the difference?

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I had a halal kebab today, it was shish chicken and lamb kofta and given to me by my Syrian-Greek employee. It was delicious and it did not offend me at all the manner of the animal’s slaughter. I am more concerned about the welfare of the animal whilst alive, in transport and it’s treatment in the slaughterhouse. I do not like terror or abuse and would wish as swift and painless a death as possible for the animal, but I’m just not sure that the focus on the last 2-3 seconds of an animal’s conscious life is the important part of the discussion. 

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8 minutes ago, WalkedUp said:

I had a halal kebab today, it was shish chicken and lamb kofta and given to me by my Syrian-Greek employee. It was delicious and it did not offend me at all the manner of the animal’s slaughter. I am more concerned about the welfare of the animal whilst alive, in transport and it’s treatment in the slaughterhouse. I do not like terror or abuse and would wish as swift and painless a death as possible for the animal, but I’m just not sure that the focus on the last 2-3 seconds of an animal’s conscious life is the important part of the discussion. 

Your right it is only a part of the process and the long distance travel of livestock has already been banned thanks to our exit of the EU. If this new legislation is passed it will help to minimise another bit of unnecessary suffering for many animals, you'll be glad to know that it will not ban the sale, just allow people to make a choice. 

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