2 Million households will go into Heating Fuel Poverty this Winter, and about the same going to Food Banks, 21st Century Poverty

[Scully]

I quite agree, but how do we tell the difference? I doubt anyone with real intent of living off the state rather than working for a living is going to admit it to anyone in the dole office. 
There are genuinely bone idle folk out there, which doesn’t necessarily make them stupid. A bloke I knew well ( now dead ) was on the dole his entire (non) working life. There was a standing joke about him in town and he was one of the towns local characters. He would do little cash in hand jobs now and then and spent most of his days out with one of his impressive collection of air rifles. He freely admitted that mucking up a job interview was the easiest thing in the world. Another joked he was in the job centre so often he was on first name terms and got invited to staff parties! 😂

 

Edited October 8, 2021 by Scully

[Rewulf]

27 minutes ago, JohnfromUK said:

I agree that the system is wrong and it should;

• provide good support and a decent quality of life to the genuinely needy
• provide only a basic (safety net) support to the lazy, feckless and bone idle.

Those in genuine need should be well supported, but living off the hard work of others should not be an attractive lifestyle choice.

The problem is differentiating between the lazy and the genuine.
I grew up knowing a family who saw benefits as a way a life , rather than a safety net, they called it 'lowie' short for allowance, they all worked, as builders, scrap metal collectors ect, but all were on the dole, they even went to sign on in their work clothes, with the works van parked outside, they knew no one would challenge them.

Today , its the same attitude, except few work on the side, they dont need to , a couple of kids guarantees a decent benefit income, a few more , especially with special needs or a 'disability' like ADHD, and you could be talking more annual income than one could earn in a £30,000 a year job.
I know this , because I have 2 nieces , 5 kids a piece who live very well off the state, and have done for 20 years, with strategically placed birthings.

The culture of not offending anyone, for their culture or lifestyle , makes forcing people to work, or questioning their motivation , impossible.
Like wise , any attempt to reduce social payments, never normally makes it past the parliamentary stage, due to the fear of vote losses.

Then you have the UN rapporteurs , who declare 25 % of the country lives in poverty !
The opposition lap this up saying we need to INCREASE benefit payments to counter this injustice, and if they ever get into power... tax the rich ... blah blah...

I dont know what the answer is , the situation seems to get worse every year, as more kids are born to lazy feckless parents, more immigrants from 3rd world countries, who have no skills or intention of working and paying taxes enter the system.
Even if we go into deep recession  , the benefits system is gold plated, the last to see a reduction in income would be those within the social system.
If it continues though, I can see a time when more people are claiming than working, and no pun intended , how can that work ?

[old man]

46 minutes ago, Scully said:

 

You can hardly blame folk for taking advantage of a system which provides; poor do it at one end of the scale and those in power do it at the other end. 🤷‍♂️

Therein lies the problem, some people being what they are will always exploit the boundary?

Seemingly beyond our successive governments collective intelligence to control effectively? The problem lies maybe, in their unfailing error of always giving advantage to another so called disadvantaged section of society? 

Which may result in where we are now due to continued bitching for more advantage?

As said somewhere else, a ground level for benefit has never been established?

[JohnfromUK]

18 minutes ago, Scully said:

but how do we tell the difference?

1 minute ago, Rewulf said:

The problem is differentiating between the lazy and the genuine.

Yes, it is a problem - and I don't have a magic answer - but everyone (including no doubt the people in the Govt offices) know who they are (or at least some of them).  I do however think that it is an issue that needs tackling - because IF we were able to weeds out the bone idle, there would be more to go round the genuinely needy.  I most definitely don't want to deprive the genuine needy of the support they need but ........ something needs to be done.  Part of the issue here is that ALL parties in Parliament should support getting this sorted out, but we are much to attached to our political hobbyhorses for that.

There are a group of (sort of) related problems;

• the bone idle who have no intention of working
• the cash economy who work, pay no tax/NI - probably claim benefits
• the cash economy who work, pay no tax/NI - and probably move around
• those who claim benefits, but have a partner (undeclared) who has a good income and provides
• those who claim benefits under multiple IDs, sometimes even of deceased persons

and no doubt others.

[TIGHTCHOKE]

And it has always been a problem and always will because unscrupulous people will always take advantage!

[clangerman]

Just now, TIGHTCHOKE said:

And it has always been a problem and always will because unscrupulous people will always take advantage!

and the most unscrupulous lot of all are the root cause the greedy paying peanut wages forcing people to work the system to top up their peanuts better to die a hungry man than a slave 

[Gordon R]

Quote

daughter used to lead benefits team most of what you hear is lies 

A lot of what is peddled is exaggerated, but the truth is far worse. The scale of fiddling is beyond the comprehension of most people. If your daughter worked in the system, she already knows that.

[Mice!]

1 hour ago, JohnfromUK said:

That is true, but I think the (long term) complaint from the general taxpayer is that IF someone makes a deliberate choice to live on benefits handouts, then they level of handouts should be very basic. 

In other words, take that option for an 'essentials only' life.  Essentials are food, accommodation, heating, but not alcohol, subscription TV, and other discretionary spending.

If someone is on benefits for reasons that are not choice (e.g., the disabled, unwell, old age and genuine jobseekers, short term unemployed, etc), a more generous package is appropriate.

I agree that the system is wrong and it should;

• provide good support and a decent quality of life to the genuinely needy
• provide only a basic (safety net) support to the lazy, feckless and bone idle.

Those in genuine need should be well supported, but living off the hard work of others should not be an attractive lifestyle choice.

While I agree with you, the problem is it's these people's poor kids that suffer the most.

[clangerman]

21 minutes ago, Gordon R said:

A lot of what is peddled is exaggerated, but the truth is far worse. The scale of fiddling is beyond the comprehension of most people. If your daughter worked in the system, she already knows that.

biggest abuse is the system sat round every weds morning telling each other what great job they do while eating breakfast on tax payers not my idea of a training day 

[Vince Green]

17 hours ago, Wymondley said:

 

But as always, it's someone else's fault (Tory scum probably).

 

When I lived for a while in Wales my next door neighbour Hew's response to every situation was to blame the government. He wasn't a benefits scrounger by any means. The whole family were incredibly hard workers but the mindset was them and us 

[Gordon R]

Quote

biggest abuse is the system sat round every weds morning telling each other what great job they do while eating breakfast on tax payers not my idea of a training day 

Drop in the ocean - small stuff. Was she aware of the millions / billions that is fiddled?

[JohnfromUK]

24 minutes ago, Mice! said:

While I agree with you, the problem is it's these people's poor kids that suffer the most.

There are some ways to minimise that - school meals being one, 'payment' of benefits in some sort of 'voucher' or food account is another.  Sadly - as where there are things like alcohol, substance abuse, domestic violence - or just basic selfish and uncaring parents - it is the kids that suffer - but that isn't the 'fault' of the benefits system.

On the other side of the coin, many parents make big sacrifices to do the best they can for their kids, but they are usually the hard working parents.  It is a 'mindset'.

[Mice!]

34 minutes ago, clangerman said:

biggest abuse is the system sat round every weds morning telling each other what great job they do while eating breakfast on tax payers not my idea of a training day 

You mean the people at work? Who's job only exists because of all those not in work.

It's always someone else's fault,  the nasty government not the work shy. 

I say this the other day and it seems quite appropriate 

[Newbie to this]

49 minutes ago, Mice! said:

 

[oscarsdad]

22 hours ago, Wymondley said:

What happened to personal responsibility?

How many in receipt of benefits smoke, have smart phones, big TV, bag of weed in the cupboard?

Kids that go hungry because the parents have spent all their benefits on alcohol and drugs?

Single mum, kids by different dads that don't pay a penny?

I'm fed up of hearing about "poverty" when most of it is poor life choices and fecklessness!

There's no shortage of work available for those that can drag themselves off the sofa and go.

But as always, it's someone else's fault (Tory scum probably).

Go on, tell me I'm heartless. 

I don't care, I'm going back to the beer I earned with 12 hours of graft today.

 

 

 

 

This.

the definition of poverty is farcical…5 children so “need” a six bed house so they all have their room? Nonsense. If you don’t have room, don’t have children and don’t expect taxpayers to fund your choices. 

[clangerman]

show me a man who has not done a job on the side or some sort of fiddle at least once and I will show you a liar there’s a word for those who live in glass houses hypocrite 

[Wymondley]

9 minutes ago, clangerman said:

show me a man who has not done a job on the side or some sort of fiddle at least once and I will show you a liar there’s a word for those who live in glass houses hypocrite 

You are quite correct Comrade clangerman, I'm sure we've all earned a few quid on the side and not paid tax on it, I have.

What I haven't done, is fund my whole lifestyle off other peoples earnings.

If you can't differentiate the two...

[Raja Clavata]

5 hours ago, Mice! said:

This. 

40 minutes ago, Wymondley said:

You are quite correct Comrade clangerman, I'm sure we've all earned a few quid on the side and not paid tax on it, I have.

What I haven't done, is fund my whole lifestyle off other peoples earnings.

If you can't differentiate the two...

And this.

[Krico woodcock]

20 hours ago, Saltings said:

watched a bloke last night on the news     sold his house    drove a jag   two chubby kids  and -£20 he couldn't afford to drive his kids to school   

ill help anyone          ive worked in social houses   not all the same  some palaces with pride          some the mangiest  pits with all the latest gear  and slabs of beer     scamming the system         gear i haven't got the time to watch     couldn't justify paying that much as i work hard  for my £            when i left  southern  Ireland in the late 70s   if you were on the dole you had to do two weeks work in your community  as      stone masons  gardeners  arborists  and all other building trades   inc cleaning graffiti        to get a months dole        not a handout           no work no dole        the other two weeks looking for work    if you missed any of your days in the two weeks  community  you had to make it up     or loose all        and the system gave pride and skills   not a handout  and were to use as a stopgap to the next job    it worked well         families that work their buts off and cant make ends meet its hard            in the early 80s   mortgage went from 7% to 16%      wages dropped by more than half      mrs pregnant    i worked 7 days a week  and jobs on the side every evening  to make ends meet    i didnt know what day or time it was  for three years no holidays etc  we went without all  jolly's       the fridge full      mrs and kids looked after       we never took a penny 

Southern Ireland is a lot different today I'm afraid saltings..dole here is up on highest rates than anywhere. Do absolutely nothing for top benefits.  Generations of families, know how to work system and bleed it dry. Laugh at lads getting up to go to work.

[oowee]

58 minutes ago, Wymondley said:

You are quite correct Comrade clangerman, I'm sure we've all earned a few quid on the side and not paid tax on it, I have.

What I haven't done, is fund my whole lifestyle off other peoples earnings.

If you can't differentiate the two...

But you cannot just say stop doing it and all will be well. WE have to provide a viable alternative to enable people to make the choice we want them to make not just dery the choice they make alone. 

Where is the education plan? Where is the plan to support those on low incomes (i dont mean cash) into work. Where is the welfare strategy. lets start to link up policy across departments. 

You cant have a fuel price cap rise of 35% and at the same time increase the fuel allowance by 7%. You can't pay people to use more fuel and not insulate homes. You cant have an open market energy supply strategy that has a market price cap that allows many of the suppliers to go bust. You can't complain of rising prices when doing so little to guarantee energy security for the country. 

[clangerman]

1 hour ago, Wymondley said:

You are quite correct Comrade clangerman, I'm sure we've all earned a few quid on the side and not paid tax on it, I have.

What I haven't done, is fund my whole lifestyle off other peoples earnings.

If you can't differentiate the two...

I know the difference comrade watch my daughters mental health very carefully as she deals with the genuine desperate 

[12gauge82]

I believe the answer to all this is fairly simple. 

1 no monetary payments. A voucher scheme that only life and death essentials can be purchased, no fags, alcohol or even junk food. Accommodation paid to the source. 

2 people still have to work to earn their vouchers, community work, or even admin work depending on disability. 

3 anyone refusing to work has their children removed and only gets vouchers for an absolute bear minimum existence. 

Watch unemployment fall,it just needs a government with the appetite to do it. 

It might sound harsh, but so is writing off generations of people and children into a life of poverty,this would at least motivate people to climb out of that loop. 

 

5 minutes ago, clangerman said:

I know the difference comrade watch my daughters mental health very carefully as she deals with the genuine desperate 

Genuine issues like that are obviously separate. My post was before I saw your one and in no way a reply to it. 

[Mice!]

2 minutes ago, oowee said:

But you cannot just say stop doing it and all will be well. WE have to provide a viable alternative to enable people to make the choice we want them to make not just dery the choice they make alone. 

Where is the education plan? Where is the plan to support those on low incomes (i dont mean cash) into work. Where is the welfare strategy. lets start to link up policy across departments. 

But like people often say, you shouldn't be better off not working than going to work, people shouldn't be sat at home breeding 3 or 4 plus kids who then grow up and go straight onto the dole without ever having worked. 

We grew up with one parent on Disability, having to stop working while we were young, it was far from easy and certainly not something we would want, my siblings both work, we all pushed ourselves and have good jobs, we wanted to better ourselves and have more than we did growing up, not live off hand outs, and that's probably the big difference,  being brought up with a work ethic 

[oowee]

2 minutes ago, Mice! said:

But like people often say, you shouldn't be better off not working than going to work, people shouldn't be sat at home breeding 3 or 4 plus kids who then grow up and go straight onto the dole without ever having worked. 

We grew up with one parent on Disability, having to stop working while we were young, it was far from easy and certainly not something we would want, my siblings both work, we all pushed ourselves and have good jobs, we wanted to better ourselves and have more than we did growing up, not live off hand outs, and that's probably the big difference,  being brought up with a work ethic 

Absoloutely. But... what do you do about it. Taking benefits will result in higher state costs through prison populations and dealing with social fall out. 

You have to provide an alternative carrot and stick but also a pathway out of poverty. Otherwise you get what we have now chaos, political splits, left and right swinging policy direction, rich and poor and a slow wind down to the back of the que. 

[clangerman]

5 minutes ago, 12gauge82 said:

I believe the answer to all this is fairly simple. 

1 no monetary payments. A voucher scheme that only life and death essentials can be purchased, no fags, alcohol or even junk food. Accommodation paid to the source. 

2 people still have to work to earn their vouchers, community work, or even admin work depending on disability. 

3 anyone refusing to work has their children removed and only gets vouchers for an absolute bear minimum existence. 

Watch unemployment fall,it just needs a government with the appetite to do it. 

It might sound harsh, but so is writing off generations of people and children into a life of poverty,this would at least motivate people to climb out of that loop. 

 

Genuine issues like that are obviously separate. My post was before I saw your one and in no way a reply to it. 

of coarse not and vouchers would certainly help stamp out scammers my problem is painting dirt bags after a house with 80 grand in the bank (my little clanger busted her) from those who are in real trouble