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BASC Lead Ammunition Update about DEFRA Consultation on Lead Ammunition.


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The call for evidence questions seek information pertaining to shooting ranges, hunting, game meat, and manufacture and supply. It also includes home-loading, lead ammunition alternatives, the impact of the voluntary transition, the impact of lead ammunition on wildlife; and the effect of restrictions on businesses and shooters.

This is a technical information gathering process and it is important that shooting organisations, shooting businesses and firearms and ammunition manufacturers provide as much information as possible.

 

 

 

"Lead ammunition alternatives the manufacture and supply and the effect of restrictions on businesses and shooters" A key principle we must not lose sight of is that further restrictions must not be imposed until effective and affordable types of sustainable ammunition are available in sufficient volumes to meet demand.

As said in another thread steel is in very short supply and will be for a very very long time.

 

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13 hours ago, bigroomboy said:

You are free to do your own research but there are plenty of journal articles to back that up. Here is the top of the search list and quite a reasonable read.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4961898/

I'm not sure quite why we are disputing well understood scientific understanding in this way. Is lead good for shot/ammunition - yes. Is it toxic - yes. Is society going to ask us to find an alternative - probably. Are there alternatives that work - yes some are better than lead and some are not quite as good... yet. You need to choose that alternative based on what you will be doing. Average syndicate pheasant 20 yards, steel is more than adequate. High pheasants, then tungsten or bismuth. The cost is insignificant compared to the cost of the day. The move by BASC is in the knowledge that this is likely to happen and therefore stimulate the industry to make better options before we are forced down that route. Just look how much more innovation there has been in biowads in the last year. Industry are lazy and will not do anything unless they are pushed. 

How can you say the cost is insignificant? 
do you/have you ever shot a big day at driven birds? 
the additional cost will make it even less achievable for the ordinary person to participate 

 

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17 minutes ago, Old farrier said:

How can you say the cost is insignificant? 
do you/have you ever shot a big day at driven birds? 
the additional cost will make it even less achievable for the ordinary person to participate 

 

No because I am happy with 75 - 100 bird days. You are talking about the cost of the tip on these days, does the keepers tip make these days unaffordable for the average person? You can either afford what you want to do or you to do or you can't. Then you have to look at options. A) shoot less birds. B) shoot closer birds. C) home load your own steel beyond CIP.

Standard steel is good for 35 yards. On my admittedly bad syndicate some people think a 20 yard pheasant is out of range. Are you really shooting 40+ yard pheasants on a regular basis and could you still have a good day shooting within that?

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"Lead ammunition alternatives the manufacture and supply and the effect of restrictions on businesses and shooters" A key principle we must not lose sight of is that further restrictions must not be imposed until effective and affordable types of sustainable ammunition are available in sufficient volumes to meet demand."

This should not and must not apply purely to the driven game boys, but all shooters. I trust no one is suggesting that in the event that the availability of steel shot does become reduced, that we lesser financially endowed folk are going to become sporting outcasts. Some comments and not to mention the actions of the odd shooting association seem to reflect that this is could well be the case.

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21 minutes ago, wymberley said:

"Lead ammunition alternatives the manufacture and supply and the effect of restrictions on businesses and shooters" A key principle we must not lose sight of is that further restrictions must not be imposed until effective and affordable types of sustainable ammunition are available in sufficient volumes to meet demand."

This should not and must not apply purely to the driven game boys, but all shooters. I trust no one is suggesting that in the event that the availability of steel shot does become reduced, that we lesser financially endowed folk are going to become sporting outcasts. Some comments and not to mention the actions of the odd shooting association seem to reflect that this is could well be the case.

I sincerely hope this social exclusion scenario doesn’t play out. One of the great things about shooting currently - is that there are various sporting opportunities and costs to suit most budgets. Surely a few boxes of steel cart’s must be reasonably affordable (?). I can’t imagine they will end up being too outrageously priced…..or am I missing something? 
 

In most open market scenarios, supply meets demand and competition maintains a stable price. There are exceptions of course, when cartels illegally hike prices or a product with unique patents takes a strong market share (e,g Apple with its IPhone etc). However, I can’t imagine these factors coming in to play with our steel cartridges. Also, China may not retain its dominance of steel shot manufacturing - if global demand becomes attractive to other companies in different regions. Ramble ends. 
 

 

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4 hours ago, Fellside said:

. Surely a few boxes of steel cart’s must be reasonably affordable (?). I can’t imagine they will end up being too outrageously priced…..or am I missing something? 

The Eley BioWads  I tried were £12.50 a box the same as the equivalent top end Black Golds. And not anywhere near as good. I usually shoot Eley Pigeon Select or HV which were a fraction over half there price per 1000 and are better cartridges. 

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7 hours ago, bigroomboy said:

No because I am happy with 75 - 100 bird days. You are talking about the cost of the tip on these days, does the keepers tip make these days unaffordable for the average person? You can either afford what you want to do or you to do or you can't. Then you have to look at options. A) shoot less birds. B) shoot closer birds. C) home load your own steel beyond CIP.

Standard steel is good for 35 yards. On my admittedly bad syndicate some people think a 20 yard pheasant is out of range. Are you really shooting 40+ yard pheasants on a regular basis and could you still have a good day shooting within that?

Yes I do shoot a lot of high pheasant days and to be honest a team of 8 guns 4 drives  equates to 2 1/2 birds a drive  it’s not worth the estates time and the 75/100 £4000  would barely cover the cost of the day given a kill to cartridges ratio of 2to 1 your whole day is going to use a slab of cartridges 

let’s make this sensible for me I want a cartridge that is capable of the higher birds knowing that it’s more than capable for the lower birds 

not one that kills a 30 yard bird and knocks feathers out of a 35 yard bird 

I also want one that’s comfortable to shoot 

Im aware that heavy shot and tss will give me the extra range at considerable extra cost over steel current price £633 per 250 slab and only plastic wads bio ammo £125 a slab 

however the remit was to make the alternative affordable and effective this remit should be for everyone 

as for the tips 

Why do you tip and how much? 
unless your a guest 

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I have the following requirements for a steel (or other non toxic) load;

  1. Must be suitable for 2 1/2" chambers (because that's what most older English guns are)
  2. Must have fibre wads (because most landlords/shoots require that - and all should)
  3. Must not damage the gun (rather obvious)
  4. Should perform similarly ideally(slightly reduced is tolerable) in 'effective range' to a 1 oz lead load (i.e. 35 yards would be OK for me).
  5. Should cost similarly to lead (bearing in mind steel is cheaper than lead as a material, this should not be 'unreasonable') once fully available (say £300 per 1000)
  6. Restricted to half choke or less is acceptable.
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Ask Bioammo . I emailed them an enquiry for 20gauge steel cartridges. He informed me they will be producing them at the end of the year. They will be making other gauges as well. I didn’t enquirer for 12gauge cartridges as I don’t use them. The dealer in U.K. is shooting star l think . Maybe they don’t know there is a market for two and a half inch cartridges. It’s a company in Spain. Hope this helps you. Another company makes steel cartridges with a cardboard wads l think it’s called jocker you could ask them. 

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5 minutes ago, Gas seal said:

Maybe they don’t know there is a market for two and a half inch cartridges.

At present I am waiting to see what becomes available.  The small shoot of which I am a member has no problem with lead at present as we don't sell game (only small days).  I would be very surprised if any cartridge supplier didn't know of this requirement as it is basically a non toxic version of the highly popular Eley Impax/Hull Imperial Game and equivalents from many other sources.  A standard 'game cartridge' for the thousands of older guns still in use.

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2 hours ago, 8 shot said:

The Eley BioWads  I tried were £12.50 a box the same as the equivalent top end Black Golds. And not anywhere near as good. I usually shoot Eley Pigeon Select or HV which were a fraction over half there price per 1000 and are better cartridges. 

OK interesting. There seems quite a big price hike at the top end of the market then - comparing fibre/lead with biowad/steel. Hopefully as more manufacturers come on board market competition will come to the rescue…?
 

Just done a quick comparison re the cheaper ones. Local supplier have Clear Pigeon 32 gram fibre at £287 and Hull steel 32 grams at £334. About 4 1/2 pence difference per cartridge. Having said that, the Hull steel have a plastic wad…?!

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16 minutes ago, Smokersmith said:

Eley and Express both have a 2 1/2” steel in a protective biocup available for the new game market.

Thanks for that. Looked only at the Eley ones (don’t like Express) and they’re £12.48 per box. They all promised to decrease the price as volume sales increase - but I bet they don’t…!

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On 16/10/2021 at 17:42, bigroomboy said:

Mate... seriously.... its is being banned because of those things. I don't think you can use an example of how long you delay things as evidence it isn't true. Lead is a toxic heavy metal that has cumulative effect in humans and other animals. Interestingly even small amounts are thought to have neurological effects, especially in children. How much or how likely you are to ingest it from game meat is hard to say but I would say its not hard to eat the odd pellet here and there. Regarding the above mentioned research a 3 or 4 times safety margin doesn't seem unreasonable when looking for health effects.

We’re going round the houses with this, and no doubt will be for some time to come, but no one is disputing lead is toxic. You have to use a modicum of common sense as well as observing the science, and while I am ready to accept wild birds and mammals can ingest lead, they’ve obviously been doing this since the inception of lead shot. I’m also willing to accept it can kill such wildlife, but to what extent? More than is being killed by shooters? 
I can also see why the use of lead in fuel has been reduced, as has its use in paints and the manufacture of toys, but as for the accumulative effects of lead in the human diet, I don’t know of anyone who eats lead shot game to the extent it could become an issue, and certainly not children. 
It’s rather strange that legislation regarding the use of lead shot was first mooted and then introduced, to protect wildlife, rather than human life, and it’s still legal to use it for food bound for human consumption! 🤷‍♂️

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2 hours ago, JohnfromUK said:

I have the following requirements for a steel (or other non toxic) load;

  1. Must be suitable for 2 1/2" chambers (because that's what most older English guns are)
  2. Must have fibre wads (because most landlords/shoots require that - and all should)
  3. Must not damage the gun (rather obvious)
  4. Should perform similarly ideally(slightly reduced is tolerable) in 'effective range' to a 1 oz lead load (i.e. 35 yards would be OK for me).
  5. Should cost similarly to lead (bearing in mind steel is cheaper than lead as a material, this should not be 'unreasonable') once fully available (say £300 per 1000)
  6. Restricted to half choke or less is acceptable.

I’ll have some of those, please. Exactly what is needed.

As Smokersmith says in his post, Eley and Express are now offering exactly this. But have my local RFD got them?  No!

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1 minute ago, London Best said:

Eley and Express are now offering exactly this.

Well - sort of exactly this - if you ignore the price - which is about £440 up - and the fact that they seem to be pretty much unobtainable at present (certainly not found any locally).  I don't particularly want to order a slab of something 'to try' for £130 plus carriage.

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1 minute ago, JohnfromUK said:

Well - sort of exactly this - if you ignore the price - which is about £440 up - and the fact that they seem to be pretty much unobtainable at present (certainly not found any locally).  I don't particularly want to order a slab of something 'to try' for £130 plus carriage.

Yes. My thoughts exactly. A box of 25 would be enough and tell me all I want to know.

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2 hours ago, London Best said:

Yes. My thoughts exactly. A box of 25 would be enough and tell me all I want to know.

Of course, BASC were offering try steel days at clay grounds, but the PWeratti dismissed that on the grounds that looking at a clay sternly will break it.  Therefore there was no value in it and what were they thinking.

5 hours ago, JohnfromUK said:

Should cost similarly to lead (bearing in mind steel is cheaper than lead as a material, this should not be 'unreasonable') once fully available (say £300 per 1000)

Once again, the raw material might be cheaper but the energy required to produce steel shot is an order of magnitude more than lead. Not to mention the tooling and machinery is considerably more expensive.

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5 hours ago, udderlyoffroad said:

Of course, BASC were offering try steel days at clay grounds

Yes, they were - but not available to 2 1/2 chambered guns.  I did check - and it was bring your own gun, which must have at least a 2 3/4" chamber.  I would have tried to participate had it been available to suit my guns.

6 hours ago, udderlyoffroad said:

Therefore there was no value in it and what were they thinking.

There was no value as the cartridges offered were incompatible with a traditional English game gun - which was the whole point of the exercise.  I am well aware that there are a range of non toxic and steel cartridges available for 2 3/4" guns.  I already have some of them.

6 hours ago, udderlyoffroad said:

Once again, the raw material might be cheaper but the energy required to produce steel shot is an order of magnitude more than lead. Not to mention the tooling and machinery is considerably more expensive.

It is suggested that once suitable cartridges are available in volume, the price will be lower.  Time will tell.

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2 hours ago, JohnfromUK said:

Yes, they were - but not available to 2 1/2 chambered guns.  I did check - and it was bring your own gun, which must have at least a 2 3/4" chamber.  I would have tried to participate had it been available to suit my guns.

There was no value as the cartridges offered were incompatible with a traditional English game gun - which was the whole point of the exercise.  I am well aware that there are a range of non toxic and steel cartridges available for 2 3/4" guns.  I already have some of them.

It is suggested that once suitable cartridges are available in volume, the price will be lower.  Time will tell.

Exactly what John says above.

I, too, enquired whether BASC could possibly supply 2 1/2 inch steel cartridges so I could try some through an English game gun, but the answer was 2 3/4 inch only.

Over the last twenty years I have shot hundreds of steel loads at duck/geese through a rough 2 3/4 chambered Spanish gun but, like John, wanted to try the new, seemingly unavailable, 2 1/2 inch offering.

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23 hours ago, Fellside said:

I sincerely hope this social exclusion scenario doesn’t play out. One of the great things about shooting currently - is that there are various sporting opportunities and costs to suit most budgets. Surely a few boxes of steel cart’s must be reasonably affordable (?). I can’t imagine they will end up being too outrageously priced…..or am I missing something? 
 

In most open market scenarios, supply meets demand and competition maintains a stable price. There are exceptions of course, when cartels illegally hike prices or a product with unique patents takes a strong market share (e,g Apple with its IPhone etc). However, I can’t imagine these factors coming in to play with our steel cartridges. Also, China may not retain its dominance of steel shot manufacturing - if global demand becomes attractive to other companies in different regions. Ramble ends. 
 

 

Yep, my point was not so much about price per se, but the availability - or possibly not -  of the more reasonably priced shot.

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1 hour ago, wymberley said:

Yep, my point was not so much about price per se, but the availability - or possibly not -  of the more reasonably priced shot.

Yes I obviously was missing something - as I had no idea the non plaswad steel was so damned expensive (!!). It would be great if other metal bashing regions outside of China started producing steel shot. It’s too monopolised currently. 

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