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Game shooting - Which aftermarket Teague Super Extended 20 gauge choke combination ?


Shotkam
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7 hours ago, 8 shot said:

Couldn't hit a cows **** with a spade with the damn things😔 used the original clear case one for everything, they were the reason I changed to Eley Pigeon Select and HV. Needed a chimney sweep to clean the barrels to.

😂 At least you’re honest! 
I swapped to Eley Pigeon Select because my local agricultural outlet stocks them, so they’re easy to get, and really really like them. Have had some astounding days on the decoys with them, through half choke, especially on crows, which I was consistently killing at ranges I consider well out there. Because of this I’d choose them over the Gamebore cartridge given the choice. I have no experience of the HV. 

8 hours ago, Shotkam said:

When it is mentioned that a shotgun is a scatter gun there could be no truer a statement.

Basically we have a disc of shot leaving the gun following the line of a shallow tapered ice cream cone shape, increasing in diameter the further the disc travels from the end of the barrels. As soon as it reaches circa. 60 yards even with 12 gauge using 40 gram 4s the pattern has failed to a degree that makes consistent humane shooting impossible.

Whatever choke, gun or usable cartridge combination anyone cares to develop nothing can alter the cone line the shot takes.

I am fairly certain that I will find a combination that will allow the 20 gauge to be consistent on 50 yard birds, but reaching for the 55 yard birds may not be acceptably humane even though a percentage may be stone dead, as the consistency will have dropped considerably.

And you can accurately tell the difference between a 50 and a 55 yard bird? 

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13 hours ago, Scully said:

🙂

 

There are no truly ‘bad’ game cartridges out there, but plenty of inconsistent shooters.

 

I would respectfully disagree, whilst you are correct with the shooters, there are a significant number of cartridges from different brands which are sub standard in one important respect.

Shot!

I have two issues, both of which are of terminal importance when shooting.

 

  1. All cartridges should be sold with the shot size claimed, in either pellets per Oz or size in millimetres, so that everyone understands what exactly they are buying. loading a British cartridge with 2.8mm and calling it a no6 with 25% less pellets in the load means patterns fail before they should do leading to wounded and pricked birds.
  2. All cartridges should be sold with shot having a crush value above the cartridge chamber pressure i.e. an Antimony level giving protection to the shot above the cartridge pressure as there are far too many manufacturers selling cartridges with the cartridge pressure on firing exceeding the crush level of the lead shot, again leading to blown and open patterns, a lot of game cartridges are made with 2% antimony, when in reality they require 3% at a minimum and 5% in high pressure magnum loads.

 

When the above two faults are combined, you end up with loads that noticeably do not pattern well and cause a lot of pricked birds or chipped clays.

Sometimes it is inconsistant shooting but other times it can be the cartridge, it's not that they don't go bang reliably or kill within 35 yards within which 90% of shots are taken, but due to the faults above rapidly decline in performance past that even though they are often sold with the promise of being hard hitting (translation oversize pellets) but which sacrifice pattern and therefore overall range to achieve this mostly at the cost of wounded and pricked birds.

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18 hours ago, Shotkam said:

It's sometimes the case that you cant see the woods for the trees. So many have opinions based on different experiences but as is usually the case - the science comes to the forefront.

All said and done, for consistent clean humane kills you need to be close to what your equipment is capable of, which for a 20 guage  looks to be closer to 50 than 60 yards and a 12 below 60.

I shall gather some more data from the patterns I now have - they may photograph well. Some I need to add the circles as I wanted to get the shots done before the wind dropped.

It is however an enjoyable experience.

No, such a blanket statement is not possible without specifying a quarry species.

18 hours ago, Shotkam said:

The 2 loads used today are continental - I have called them what they are called 5 and 4 1/2. Of course they are 41/3 and 4.

The next on test will be 6 3/4 so they is a marked difference there, with approx. 75 more pellets in the pattern.

I just need to address the pattern failing and I am fairly confident I can achieve that in due co

urse.

I am not interested in the fluke kills that is without fail the norm. on higher bird shoots where the energy radically exceeds the capability of the pattern.

Experience shooters can clearly see when a bird is hit a non lethal strike by its behavior and it's not great for shooting.

Looking forward to the next run of testing.

 

Still confused as to which cartridge this is; it's not the Hull 20 Extreme.

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6 hours ago, Scully said:

😂 At least you’re honest! 
I swapped to Eley Pigeon Select because my local agricultural outlet stocks them, so they’re easy to get, and really really like them. Have had some astounding days on the decoys with them, through half choke, especially on crows, which I was consistently killing at ranges I consider well out there. Because of this I’d choose them over the Gamebore cartridge given the choice. I have no experience of the HV. 

And you can accurately tell the difference between a 50 and a 55 yard bird? 

Beat me to it Scully. 

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3 hours ago, Stonepark said:

 

I would respectfully disagree, whilst you are correct with the shooters, there are a significant number of cartridges from different brands which are sub standard in one important respect.

Shot!

I have two issues, both of which are of terminal importance when shooting.

 

  1. All cartridges should be sold with the shot size claimed, in either pellets per Oz or size in millimetres, so that everyone understands what exactly they are buying. loading a British cartridge with 2.8mm and calling it a no6 with 25% less pellets in the load means patterns fail before they should do leading to wounded and pricked birds.
  2. All cartridges should be sold with shot having a crush value above the cartridge chamber pressure i.e. an Antimony level giving protection to the shot above the cartridge pressure as there are far too many manufacturers selling cartridges with the cartridge pressure on firing exceeding the crush level of the lead shot, again leading to blown and open patterns, a lot of game cartridges are made with 2% antimony, when in reality they require 3% at a minimum and 5% in high pressure magnum loads.

 

When the above two faults are combined, you end up with loads that noticeably do not pattern well and cause a lot of pricked birds or chipped clays.

Sometimes it is inconsistant shooting but other times it can be the cartridge, it's not that they don't go bang reliably or kill within 35 yards within which 90% of shots are taken, but due to the faults above rapidly decline in performance past that even though they are often sold with the promise of being hard hitting (translation oversize pellets) but which sacrifice pattern and therefore overall range to achieve this mostly at the cost of wounded and pricked birds.

Fair enough. So can you identify the cartridges you claim are sub standard, so those not in the know can avoid them? It would also be interesting to discover if any were on my list of what I consider to be good cartridges.  

I genuinely don’t know of any I would avoid, ( except for White Gold perhaps as my limited experience of these was that they are a very dirty cartridge ) but certainly have preferences for whatever reason. 

There are so many variables at play when shooting, as we all know, which don’t necessarily play a part when shooting at a pattern plate, which is why I asked what happens when that ideal choke/cartridge combination on the pattern plate results in misses in the field. 

Edited by Scully
Grammar
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Had I known all of this technical stuff about cartridges and chokes I may never have taken up shooting. It's all too complicated for my limited brain.

 

Edited by JDog
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1 hour ago, wymberley said:

No, such a blanket statement is not possible without specifying a quarry species.

Still confused as to which cartridge this is; it's not the Hull 20 Extreme.

Yes it is - but they have discontinued the 32g 6 in 20g as did not sell well.

Onto plan B - Load my own so I'm after recipes now to give approx 1360 - 1425 fps in 32g fibre 20 guage

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53 minutes ago, Shotkam said:

Yes it is - but they have discontinued the 32g 6 in 20g as did not sell well.

Onto plan B - Load my own so I'm after recipes now to give approx 1360 - 1425 fps in 32g fibre 20 guage

Not surprised. Pray tell, are/were they the ones still advertised on the Hull web-site as Extreme 6s? 

Unless yours is a canon somewhere north of 7 lbs, I can't see the purpose of stuffing 1&1/8 oz into a 20 bore.

Question; What is the difference in the energy between a cartridge having a MV of 1250 ft/sec and one at 1450 down range at 50 yards and also the potential difference in pattern quality/density? The two answers jointly reflect the validity of the very old but still very truthful saying about what it is that actually does the killing.

Edited by wymberley
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54 minutes ago, Shotkam said:

Yes it is - but they have discontinued the 32g 6 in 20g as did not sell well.

Onto plan B - Load my own so I'm after recipes now to give approx 1360 - 1425 fps in 32g fibre 20 guage

Why would you imagine the 32g no.6 20 gauge cartridges would not sell well?

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2 hours ago, JDog said:

Had I known all of this technical stuff about cartridges and chokes I may never have taken up shooting. It's all too complicated for my limited brain.

 

Just don't let it worry you keep whacking and stacking:good:

50 minutes ago, wymberley said:

Not surprised. Pray tell, are/were they the ones still advertised on the Hull web-site as Extreme 6s? 

Unless yours is a canon somewhere north of 7 lbs, I can't see the purpose of stuffing 1&1/8 oz into a 20 bore.

Question; What is the difference in the energy between a cartridge having a MV of 1250 ft/sec and one at 1450 down range at 50 yards and also the potential difference in pattern quality/density? The two answers jointly reflect the validity of the very old but still very truthful saying about what it is that actually does the killing.

Maybe needs to change to an 8 bore.

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24 minutes ago, JDog said:

Why would you imagine the 32g no.6 20 gauge cartridges would not sell well?

It doesn't make sense but as noted by the OP, all the 30 and 32g loads seem to be no5's, with no6 being restricted to 28g.....

 

The "choice" is a heavier no5 load with a pattern that becomes less than optimal even with full choke at 45 yards or a lighter no6 load that the pattern goes to less than optimal also at 45 yards, but not the heavier load and no6 which with full choke would stretch to 50 yards.... you do wonder what manufacturers are thinking.....

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On 19/10/2021 at 19:33, Shotkam said:

I know it is unwise to get too hung up with chokes but the correct or incorrect choke selection can have a significant impact on your shooting. 

Having spent some time in discussion with Teague and considerable research of my own, it is clear that 12 and 20 gauge do perform differently with different choke combinations.

A 20 gauge inherently will have a longer length of shot in the cartridge, consequently it will hold a tighter pattern for a longer distance over a 12 gauge. However there is no available data I could find for this.

The heavier the load the more open choke is required to preserve the pattern.

I have been thinking I have been under gunned on some days but apparently not. For example a 28gram cartridge 20G will maintain a better pattern at the longest ranges through 1/2 and 3/4 than anything else, whereas a 32g 20g will give optimum performance through 1/4 and 1/2.

I plan to get on the pattern plate finally tomorrow to test the data, using a suitable number of shots of course to be statistically accurate.

Really interested on what is required to achieve the 3 hits on bird for a humane dispatch.

I could post my findings if others are interested.

 

A Old boy I used to shoot duck with once replied when I asked him about using pattern plates  the reply was pattern plates don’t fly So I never used one with any of my shotguns I have ever used You miss you miss good luck to the bird As LB said try get out more at live quarry Good luck 

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6 hours ago, wymberley said:

Not surprised. Pray tell, are/were they the ones still advertised on the Hull web-site as Extreme 6s? 

Unless yours is a canon somewhere north of 7 lbs, I can't see the purpose of stuffing 1&1/8 oz into a 20 bore.

Question; What is the difference in the energy between a cartridge having a MV of 1250 ft/sec and one at 1450 down range at 50 yards and also the potential difference in pattern quality/density? The two answers jointly reflect the validity of the very old but still very truthful saying about what it is that actually does the killing.

Yes they are. 

They produced a quantity of these but they sat in their warehouse for too long so they decided to discontinue. They said today they will be updating their website.

I don't have an issue with recoil with 32 0r 34 and will be looking around 1360fps when I load them.

That is easy to determine with gel blocks if you have the time or inclination.

Manufacturers are interested in the mass market and the average shooter isn't interested in what is being discussed at length on this thread.

To produce loads superior to anything on the market is not going to take a lot of doing if you have a passion and the knowledge.

As many have said up to 40 yards most cartridges will do the job well.

5 hours ago, JDog said:

Why would you imagine the 32g no.6 20 gauge cartridges would not sell well?

Possibly due to the price and increased recoil. I use an Isis Xpad recoil pad so recoil does not come into it.

That would have been a fantastic cartridge as they reduced the speed to 1360 improve pattern quality below the Black Golds 1425.

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5 hours ago, Stonepark said:

It doesn't make sense but as noted by the OP, all the 30 and 32g loads seem to be no5's, with no6 being restricted to 28g.....

 

The "choice" is a heavier no5 load with a pattern that becomes less than optimal even with full choke at 45 yards or a lighter no6 load that the pattern goes to less than optimal also at 45 yards, but not the heavier load and no6 which with full choke would stretch to 50 yards.... you do wonder what manufacturers are thinking.....

As you have said maximum range before insufficient energy:

No 6 50 yards

No 5 60 yards

With 5% antimony and 6 1/2 shot maybe 55 yards is drawing near - for those who can gauge the difference between 50 and 55 yards.

Could easily move to 34 gram as Black Gold with 1360 instead of BG 1425 for the benefit of pattern quality.

If I see a really even pattern with a specific cartridge then try it in the field, the difference is noticeable if you have a lot of experience as you will understand yourself. 

I am not 100% convinced on No. of exact hits as much as a dense even pattern.

Interesting to know who decided that a bird needs 3 hits in a vital organ to kill it humanely. I accept that a bird will take 3 hits in other body parts and go on with smaller shot sizes.

 

11 hours ago, Stonepark said:

 

I would respectfully disagree, whilst you are correct with the shooters, there are a significant number of cartridges from different brands which are sub standard in one important respect.

Shot!

I have two issues, both of which are of terminal importance when shooting.

 

  1. All cartridges should be sold with the shot size claimed, in either pellets per Oz or size in millimetres, so that everyone understands what exactly they are buying. loading a British cartridge with 2.8mm and calling it a no6 with 25% less pellets in the load means patterns fail before they should do leading to wounded and pricked birds.
  2. All cartridges should be sold with shot having a crush value above the cartridge chamber pressure i.e. an Antimony level giving protection to the shot above the cartridge pressure as there are far too many manufacturers selling cartridges with the cartridge pressure on firing exceeding the crush level of the lead shot, again leading to blown and open patterns, a lot of game cartridges are made with 2% antimony, when in reality they require 3% at a minimum and 5% in high pressure magnum loads.

 

When the above two faults are combined, you end up with loads that noticeably do not pattern well and cause a lot of pricked birds or chipped clays.

Sometimes it is inconsistant shooting but other times it can be the cartridge, it's not that they don't go bang reliably or kill within 35 yards within which 90% of shots are taken, but due to the faults above rapidly decline in performance past that even though they are often sold with the promise of being hard hitting (translation oversize pellets) but which sacrifice pattern and therefore overall range to achieve this mostly at the cost of wounded and pricked birds.

I agree 100%. 

 

15 hours ago, Scully said:

😂 At least you’re honest! 
I swapped to Eley Pigeon Select because my local agricultural outlet stocks them, so they’re easy to get, and really really like them. Have had some astounding days on the decoys with them, through half choke, especially on crows, which I was consistently killing at ranges I consider well out there. Because of this I’d choose them over the Gamebore cartridge given the choice. I have no experience of the HV. 

And you can accurately tell the difference between a 50 and a 55 yard bird? 

I am not sure many people can, although I am always measuring those sort of distances with a rangefinder and have trees around the house I know the exact distance of a look at several times a week just to remind myself. -OCD quite possibly !

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Hi Shotkam reloading can be time consuming and addictive. The USA reload more than U.K. They have a lot of data and are well ahead of us. With 20gauge they use ,time to target ,fast speed light load cartridges. Stone park is right about shot size and hardness, its the only way compare different cartridges. The size in mm should be on the box. I don’t think half size of shot will make a difference at 50yards but increasing the speed will.remember that it’s a small lead pellet it’s not going to fly straight for 50yards or more. Try Fiocchi cartridges I don’t know about lead in 20gauge but in steel they are very good, also in.410. Keep at it you will find the best combination for you. Wildflowers keep loading a better cartridge every year ,or hope to.

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Shotcam,

To your credit, you're obviously one of Sir Ralph Payne-Gallwey's 45%ers. Sadly, I'm at the other end of the scale so will opt out now. But first, a few final points;

Nobody said that 3 strikes are required in a vital organ in order to kill.

The answer to the differing MV question is just 0.11 ftlbs and the second element was, of course, pattern.

Rest assured that Hull's Extreme 6 is not 6&3/4, but a tad under 5 at 2.75mm.

No doubt you are familiar with V2.5 - as are Hull, not so much Gamebore.

Good luck in your quest.

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59 minutes ago, Windswept said:

Appologies if this is a daft suggestion but would copper coated lead offer a better pattern at 50/55 yards?

It will allow better flow through the loading machines (low pressure), but it is only as good as the underlying lead pellet is hard. If you copper coat a soft pellet that is then deformed when fired, pellet pattern will still be poor.

Same with nickel coating used in premium loads, it is normally the harder higher antimony lead pellet undeaneath which improves patterns, rather than the nickle in and of itself.

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20 hours ago, JDog said:

Had I known all of this technical stuff about cartridges and chokes I may never have taken up shooting. It's all too complicated for my limited brain.

 

^^^this.. don't put too much effort and time on pattern plates, percentages, equations. I once patterned some my favourite clay smoking  cartridges and was very disappointed the way they patterned on plate,  I was nearly going to stop using them!! what's on the board doesn't reflect on moving target be it clay or live quarry..But 55 ,60 yards is a long shot, and depending on what way the  pheasant is flying can turn into very technical shot and I don't know any one who could consistently hit them at that range no matter what cartridges, or gauge of shot gun. Compared to 35 yard pheasant. As Scully says he really rates RC sipe, i do also, serious cartridges(knock elephants)When the bird  doesn't fold,its my fault. they are more than capable of killing pheasants past 45 yards but I bet if I pattern them at say 50 yards I could loose confidence,  as with any cartridges pattern at 50+ yards. Pattern won't look great. 

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12 hours ago, Shotkam said:

Interesting to know who decided that a bird needs 3 hits in a vital organ to kill it humanely. I accept that a bird will take 3 hits in other body parts and go on with smaller shot sizes.

 

Unless we are talking buckshot, pellets do not kill by causing expansion or hydraulic wound damage as a high velocity rifle bullet does.

A shotgun kills by penetration and shock caused by multiple strikes on the nervous system but the pattern is random for each shot.

I calculate shock using ftlbs per kilo, with the aim to be total energy of pellets striking bird to be 9-10ftlbs per kilo mass which serves as a proxy for shock.

You only need 1 pellet to hit heart/brain/brainstem/neck vertebrate/main arterial blood vessels for an instant dead in the air kill with a pheasant but these organs only comprise 50% of the area of the vital organs of lungs, liver, minor blood vessels etc which give a less than instant kill  but are still deadly but may take a minute or two and again these only comprise 50% of the entire bird which can sustain multiple minor damage and survive.

So to get 1 pellet in a instant kill spot, 2-3 roughly are needed to go into vital areas, and to get 3 pellets into vital areas, you need 2-3 times that hitting the bird.

For a cock pheasant I personally equate this to 150 pellets in a 30 inch circle giving 10 strikes overall but is perhaps 1 more than required, (could probably accept 140 and 9 strikes). With the same pattern due to the smaller size of a hen pheasant this only equates to roughly 7/8 strikes.

But  these are averages, and the shotgun pattern is random, therefore if you follow a normal distribution curve the majority (95%) of cock birds will be hit with over 5/6 pellets, that still leaves 5% which get hit with 1-4 pellets (not instantly killed). So if the gun is doing his part only 1 in 20 cock birds are non instant kills and runners but this amounts to about 10% of hens (1 in 10).

Those are my thoughs anyway.....

Now others reccomend 120 pellets in a 30 inch circle, reducing the number of hits to 7 on a cock bird (or 5 on a hen) giving 10% non instant kills and runners (1 in 10) and 25% hens (1 in 4).

Tom Rosters thinking reccomments 90 pellets in a 30 inch circle, 5 pellets on a cock bird, which arguably is the bare minimum statistically with no safety margin such that wounded birds would increase to about 25% (1 in 4) or 4 hits on a hen where statistically wounded birds would increase to almost 50% (1 in 2) but often in the states hens are not shot in many areas.

 

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14 hours ago, Shotkam said:

.

I agree 100%. 

So if you agree 100%, would you like to tell us all which are the brands of sub standard cartridges we should be looking out for? You two appear to be the only ones in the know. 

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3 hours ago, Stonepark said:

 

Unless we are talking buckshot, pellets do not kill by causing expansion or hydraulic wound damage as a high velocity rifle bullet does.

A shotgun kills by penetration and shock caused by multiple strikes on the nervous system but the pattern is random for each shot.

I calculate shock using ftlbs per kilo, with the aim to be total energy of pellets striking bird to be 9-10ftlbs per kilo mass which serves as a proxy for shock.

You only need 1 pellet to hit heart/brain/brainstem/neck vertebrate/main arterial blood vessels for an instant dead in the air kill with a pheasant but these organs only comprise 50% of the area of the vital organs of lungs, liver, minor blood vessels etc which give a less than instant kill  but are still deadly but may take a minute or two and again these only comprise 50% of the entire bird which can sustain multiple minor damage and survive.

So to get 1 pellet in a instant kill spot, 2-3 roughly are needed to go into vital areas, and to get 3 pellets into vital areas, you need 2-3 times that hitting the bird.

For a cock pheasant I personally equate this to 150 pellets in a 30 inch circle giving 10 strikes overall but is perhaps 1 more than required, (could probably accept 140 and 9 strikes). With the same pattern due to the smaller size of a hen pheasant this only equates to roughly 7/8 strikes.

But  these are averages, and the shotgun pattern is random, therefore if you follow a normal distribution curve the majority (95%) of cock birds will be hit with over 5/6 pellets, that still leaves 5% which get hit with 1-4 pellets (not instantly killed). So if the gun is doing his part only 1 in 20 cock birds are non instant kills and runners but this amounts to about 10% of hens (1 in 10).

Those are my thoughs anyway.....

Now others reccomend 120 pellets in a 30 inch circle, reducing the number of hits to 7 on a cock bird (or 5 on a hen) giving 10% non instant kills and runners (1 in 10) and 25% hens (1 in 4).

Tom Rosters thinking reccomments 90 pellets in a 30 inch circle, 5 pellets on a cock bird, which arguably is the bare minimum statistically with no safety margin such that wounded birds would increase to about 25% (1 in 4) or 4 hits on a hen where statistically wounded birds would increase to almost 50% (1 in 2) but often in the states hens are not shot in many areas.

 

Thanks for all that quality - info absolutely fantastic which I can now refer to.

I think the proof of the pudding is in the eating, I'll try and source some 3 - 5% antimony shot and the next stage will be loading some test loads !

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