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Investment in hydrogen boiler's or air source heat pumps


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Because Hydrogen is no different from a battery and you only get back about 60% of the energy (normally electricity used to split water) you put into making it, ahp (If its works) gets a 300% to 400% return on the electricty invested.

AHP unfortuneately prefers continental conditions to work best (ideally dry/warm but then warm wet, then cool, UK (especially Scotland) cool to cold maritime conditions are less than ideal, Underground Water Heat Pump would be much better but not everyone has room to put one down and are more expensive due to the ground works required.

 

 

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Simples.... i dont know the gist of it but...there is not enough hydrogen as the goverment want to use it in some carbon capture process or something like that to get to carbon neutral.....then if there is additional it will then be mixed with natural gas and used for heating......

Basically crucify us for their look at us saving the world stance which will make no difference when the rest of the world just carries on regardless.....

All of the air/ water pumps rely on immersion heaters to boost temp high enough for washing etc....you will not save any money on your existing bills with these systems!!!!

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You can't have a hydrogen boiler until everyone on you gas main has one.  They are even talking about trials of hydrogen whereby a whole village converts all at once (as has to happen)  but if you object then they simply cut off your gas for  your non-compliance.

https://notalotofpeopleknowthat.wordpress.com/2021/10/10/hydrogen-boiler-revolution-pretty-much-impossible-says-minister/

  So an elderly couple refuse one, then freeze to death, who is responsible for the deaths?

 

RS

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I was speaking to an heating engineer recently who told me plans are well advanced in mixing mains natural gas with 20% hydrogen. He said most modern boilers will work fine and you would not know the difference. 

Talking about hest pumps he told me they cant get the water temperature as high as gas boilers. Most central heating systems would have to be ripped out and replaced with larger radiators in order to work efficiently. It could make conversions very expendive and only a real option for new build.

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I am waiting for the grants for heat pumps then look to see if they will fund a swap from oil. 

On 21/10/2021 at 20:50, Stonepark said:

Because Hydrogen is no different from a battery and you only get back about 60% of the energy (normally electricity used to split water) you put into making it, ahp (If its works) gets a 300% to 400% return on the electricty invested.

AHP unfortuneately prefers continental conditions to work best (ideally dry/warm but then warm wet, then cool, UK (especially Scotland) cool to cold maritime conditions are less than ideal, Underground Water Heat Pump would be much better but not everyone has room to put one down and are more expensive due to the ground works required.

 

 

I was looking at a Hydrogen generator recently that runs off alchol. https://www.my-efoy.com/en/efoy-fuell-cells/

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13 minutes ago, oowee said:

I am waiting for the grants for heat pumps then look to see if they will fund a swap from oil. 

I was looking at a Hydrogen generator recently that runs off alchol. https://www.my-efoy.com/en/efoy-fuell-cells/

Be prepared to replace your radiators and pipework and floors as the current rads are sized for the room operating at 65C, heatpumps struggle to get water above 40C even with their electrical heating element and your pipework needs to be insulated and heatpumps work best combined with underfloor heating due to the lower temperature required for underfloor heating.

 

How new is your house, it's best to be super insulated due to the lower Heatpumps output compared to oil. Likely also require an immersion heater and\or electric shower as water probably won't be warm enough for power shower or bath.

 

Unfortunately, fuel cells are commercially still not economical except in very limited circumstances, and materials required for fuel cell such as rare earths and precious metals make it environmentally costly eg for your suggestion £1800 for genset plus £50\l for 24hr fuel giving a continuous 40w output.

 

I just bought an Aldi 800w genset for less than £80, 24hr fuel is unleaded 24l about £31 plus oil at £3 as an emergency back up and camping \doing DIY etc remotely.

 

Even with fuel duty taxes, the petrol is ⅔ the cost and provides 20 times the energy.

Unfortunately it is a similar story with most replacement fuels or systems in that they do not have the energy return (known as EROI) or raw power that fossil fuel has.

 

 

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9 hours ago, Stonepark said:

Be prepared to replace your radiators and pipework and floors as the current rads are sized for the room operating at 65C, heatpumps struggle to get water above 40C even with their electrical heating element and your pipework needs to be insulated and heatpumps work best combined with underfloor heating due to the lower temperature required for underfloor heating.

 

How new is your house, it's best to be super insulated due to the lower Heatpumps output compared to oil. Likely also require an immersion heater and\or electric shower as water probably won't be warm enough for power shower or bath.

 

 

First statement - no need to replace your ‘legs’ as regardless of PeX or 22/15mm copper, it’s up to the job ( ideally it would be all jacketed to minimise heat loss. 
Radiators will need to be changed, bit not always for a physically larger variant, just a different panel config.

Our neighbour has only had his rads replaced and ASHP fitted.

I fitted ours but combined with a renovation and UFH.

Second statement. Ours heats the water to just over 43 degrees and can be made to heat higher ( it also gets around legionnaires by a weekly supplemental heat cycle to 60 degrees via an immersion) - all it takes is a mental adjustment to use only the hot tap and add additional cold to achieve the correct bath level.

Showers are plenty hot enough - pour a pot 43 or so degree water over your back and you will be plenty warm enough 👍🏻

Edited by Jaymo
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Just read an article from John Humphrys regarding his heat pump install.

He has a ground source pump and ufh fitted to renovated holiday place in Wales.

Bemoaning the lack of heat and yet he states that someone only switches it on a couple of days before his arrival at this holiday home.

So, thermally it’s already going to be cooler than a house that’s occupied and ufh is two things- not instantaneous and also a subtle heat. 

Ive visited friends with an old barn conversion with a GSHP and it was too hot as in uncomfortable.

We keep ours running 24/7 and it’s thermostatically controlled in each room to maintain 19-21 degrees. Not overly warm, but comfortable to be able to sit around in just my pj bottoms 🙂

Just like the mindset in using an electric vehicle, the same applies to renewable heating and its application.

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28 minutes ago, Newbie to this said:

All sounds like an expensive downgrade.

I’m getting £1200 per year back from the government in RHI payments for next seven years.

This place only had night storage heaters when purchased and the pump plus ancillaries including eco cylinder etc came in at £7k- now who is the mug ??????

Will help those with their maths 7x1200= £8400- 7000. So I’ve been paid £1400 to install a heating system in a place that had none. 
PS, no gas in the village and the siting of an LPG tank these days are extremely prohibitive. Oil is a possibility but the price per litre fluctuates enormously.

Plus you need to always monitor levels to avoid running out. 

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I have a place in Spain and in the winter months just reverse the aircon to get the place warm on cold nights. It works well and soon gets very warm and it is basically an air heat pump. However the outside air is drier and warmer. I think outside heat pumps would really struggle on cold UK  evenings when the outside temp drops well below freezing.

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19 minutes ago, Jaymo said:

I’m getting £1200 per year back from the government in RHI payments for next seven years.

This place only had night storage heaters when purchased and the pump plus ancillaries including eco cylinder etc came in at £7k- now who is the mug ??????

Will help those with their maths 7x1200= £8400- 7000. So I’ve been paid £1400 to install a heating system in a place that had none. 
PS, no gas in the village and the siting of an LPG tank these days are extremely prohibitive. Oil is a possibility but the price per litre fluctuates enormously.

Plus you need to always monitor levels to avoid running out. 

The problem is subsidies are only available to a minority of early adopters, normally less than 1%, the question is would you have done it without subsidy?

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21 minutes ago, Jaymo said:

I’m getting £1200 per year back from the government in RHI payments for next seven years.

This place only had night storage heaters when purchased and the pump plus ancillaries including eco cylinder etc came in at £7k- now who is the mug ??????

Will help those with their maths 7x1200= £8400- 7000. So I’ve been paid £1400 to install a heating system in a place that had none. 
PS, no gas in the village and the siting of an LPG tank these days are extremely prohibitive. Oil is a possibility but the price per litre fluctuates enormously.

Plus you need to always monitor levels to avoid running out. 

Wow, someone took that personal. Did it hit a nerve maybe :hmm:

Let me rephrase-

All sounds like an expensive downgrade for me.

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3 hours ago, Stonepark said:

The problem is subsidies are only available to a minority of early adopters

That is certainly one problem.  The other problem (which mainly affects those who currently have mains gas, but does also apply to LPG and oil) is this;

  • GAS.  Cost about 4p per KWhr for gas, about 80% efficient, so cost per KWHr delivered to rooms - about 5p.
  • HEATPUMP.  Cost per KWhr for electricity about 18p.  'Gain' heatpump claimed at between 2.0 and 3.5, so cost per KWhr delivered to rooms - about 6 to 9p.

Basically - the heatpump will cost more to run than mains gas, and probably similar to run as oil (on average).  That is based on today's pricing.

 

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Reading through this thread and having mulled things over, it seems like hydrogen is a non starter for domestic heating. The electrical cost of producing it and then its efficiency when burnt. It's much more efficient to use the electricity directly in the dwelling. I think where hydrogen will come into it's own is for transport.

 

 

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7 hours ago, Newbie to this said:

Wow, someone took that personal. Did it hit a nerve maybe :hmm:

Let me rephrase-

All sounds like an expensive downgrade for me.

Hit a nerve? Maybe, but not personally- I’m just getting fed up with all the contradictory info and assumptions made by so many. 
Like I said, I’m making money out of having mine in comparison to what we had. After 7 years when the RHI payments stop, I have effectively been given £1400 toward my next boiler.

As gas still won’t be available in the village, then biomass will be on my radar. 

4 hours ago, JohnfromUK said:

That is certainly one problem.  The other problem (which mainly affects those who currently have mains gas, but does also apply to LPG and oil) is this;

  • GAS.  Cost about 4p per KWhr for gas, about 80% efficient, so cost per KWHr delivered to rooms - about 5p.
  • HEATPUMP.  Cost per KWhr for electricity about 18p.  'Gain' heatpump claimed at between 2.0 and 3.5, so cost per KWhr delivered to rooms - about 6 to 9p.

Basically - the heatpump will cost more to run than mains gas, and probably similar to run as oil (on average).  That is based on today's pricing.

 

For me, the choice was quite simple, without a gas supply and Lpg tank siting issues ( plus Lpg runs considerably more than natural gas) 

But who is to say the way things are going with wholesale gas prices and an abolition of the ‘cap’, that gas won’t become cost prohibitive? 

7 hours ago, Stonepark said:

The problem is subsidies are only available to a minority of early adopters, normally less than 1%, the question is would you have done it without subsidy?

It’s available to all until March 2022.

Would I have done it without subsidy? Well, we priced up new storage heaters and elec wall mounted units which seemed to come in around half the price bit with a significant increase in running costs.

Biomass was considered but as I currently work away, didn’t think was suitable for wifey to maintain/fill. 
 

LPG was a non starter due to new regs over tank positioning- loads of room at the rear of the property bit the tank needs to be ‘line of sight’ according to flogas and Calor who we spoke too. 
 

Oil is the current village fav and would be my second choice had we not decided on the ASHP- I’m not convinced over it’s green credentials, bit my wife is the environmental type and added her tuppence to the decision

7 hours ago, TRINITY said:

I have a place in Spain and in the winter months just reverse the aircon to get the place warm on cold nights. It works well and soon gets very warm and it is basically an air heat pump. However the outside air is drier and warmer. I think outside heat pumps would really struggle on cold UK  evenings when the outside temp drops well below freezing.

When we lived in the south of France up in the hills, we regularly had temps in to range of up to minus 8 ( jeez I used to hate riding back home at midnight from Nice airport on my motorbike- frozen fingers and neck).

We had three reversible airco units and they still performed well to get the bedrooms and lounge nice n toasty. Must admit we also used a wood burner in the main rooms as had a supply of free logs. 
 

Ok, have I answered everyone? Anything else? If your that interested I just had vino n pizza for tea with mint n coriander poppadoms 😂😂😂

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1 minute ago, Jaymo said:

For me, the choice was quite simple, without a gas supply and Lpg tank siting issues ( plus Lpg runs considerably more than natural gas) 

But who is to say the way things are going with wholesale gas prices and an abolition of the ‘cap’, that gas won’t become cost prohibitive?

Can't disagree with any of that.  I am lucky and have mains gas.

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As I understand it that upto 20% hydrogen is to be added to the natural gas supply so I can only assume that the boiler will burn cleaner, I can't find any information regarding combustion analysis on the the mixture of natural/ hydrogen . Isn't adding ahp or ghp going to be a bit like the electic cars being pushed on us,as the colder weather just makes them use a lot more electric and we don't have much spare capacity.

Just before I retired we had to replace two gas boilers at a school, the ground source heating had been out of use for ten months as no one anywhere could get the parts to repair it, the school kept asking for it not to be repaired as it had saved them thousands of £s in electric. The maximum temperature this unit could achieve was just over 40'c hence the back up gas boilers.

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We have an older house with suspended floors. It is super insulated including under the suspended floors and on the inside of the walls.  Not sure though, how this would compare to a modern home. 

We have no gas and heat with oil. We have plenty of space for ground source or solar (pv or thermal). I would at the very least like to supplement what we currently have, or better still replace with a more eco friendly option. Question is how best to get there, if it is sensible. I think I need a specialist surveyor to look at our options. How would I go about finding one?

Edited by oowee
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1 minute ago, oowee said:

How would I go about finding one?

I have a somewhat similar situation;

Old (listed) fairly large house - (almost) as well insulated as reasonably practical (good in roof, all heated areas double glazed (either sealed krypton filled panels or secondary, all suspended floors insulated below, solid floors not practical for insulating), reasonably draught proofed, some walls cavity and filled foil clad cellotex, some fairly thick solid (and I have been strongly advised not to touch for breathability).  We have mains gas and I currently have a 42 KW modern condensing gas boiler with oversize radiators.

I have plenty of room for ground sourced horizontal but ............ protected trees and forbidden to do ground works within root area which hugely limits what is possible.  Ground sourced vertical probably possible.  I have not found a reliable surveyor/advisor - but the architect who did a big building programme for me about 5 years ago strongly advised caution at present as larger domestic heatpumps are at a fairly early stage for domestic type use (industrial/commercial are available, but expensive, bulky, noisy need 3 phase electricity) and very costly both to buy and run and mainly designed to work feeding warmth and cool to ceiling cassette air conditioning units.  I can vouch from my last employer that these are "expensive, bulky, noisy need 3 phase electricity, unreliable and horribly expensive to run".  The other problem is that underfloor is not practical (as a retrofit) in most of the house and adequate radiator size for 40C water is not practical (currently sized for 55C to get best from condensing boiler)

I think that things will become clearer with time, but I am thinking that for me a change from current methane gas to hydrogen will most likely end up being the way forward, but probably not in my lifetime!  My loose thinking is to look at replacing the current gas boiler - possibly with similar circa early 2030s (if I am still alive and living here) when the current boiler will be 15+ years old.

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