Game Shooting - Does cartridge velocity have a significant effect over 40 yards on the effectiveness of a 20 gauge cartridge ?

[Shotkam]

There doesn't seem to be a lot of research findings published relating to this subject, which is why I posted this.

As I am planning to load some test loads to trial it would be valuable information.

Manufacturers must know that it does but I am still unsure due to the inconsistency in the range of fps cartridges Game cartridges they offer.

For example:

20 gauge Gamebore Black Gold               32g fibre 5   -   1425 fps

20 gauge Hull High Pheasant Extreme     32g fibre 5   -   1360 fps

Perhaps other have a knowledge of this ?

[ditchman]

dont forget that is velocity measured at  the muzzle.......it drops off very quickly after that

[Stonepark]

14 minutes ago, Shotkam said:

There doesn't seem to be a lot of research findings published relating to this subject, which is why I posted this.

As I am planning to load some test loads to trial it would be valuable information.

Manufacturers must know that it does but I am still unsure due to the inconsistency in the range of fps cartridges Game cartridges they offer.

For example:

20 gauge Gamebore Black Gold               32g fibre 5   -   1425 fps

20 gauge Hull High Pheasant Extreme     32g fibre 5   -   1360 fps

Perhaps other have a knowledge of this ?

Those tend to be the 1m speeds, whilst wad and shot load is still intact and helping each other.... For true velocity of individual pellets you need the observed velocities, which are taken further out.

 

If you have a hull or gamebore cartridges and split one open count and weigh pellets to confirm size, the observed velocities are given in graphs on their website, knowing the mass of pellets its possible to calculate energy.

 

For Black Gold 7.5 (continental sized) 20m observed velocity is 879ft\sec, dropping from 1500 at muzzle, if you go through the graphs for similar sized shot in their clay range from 1400 to 1500 at muzzle, makes 15ft\sec difference at 20m, which is negligible energy wise, so I wouldn't worry about individual mv as long as you are in the ballpark.

 

 

[Aseekin]

35 minutes ago, Shotkam said:

 

As said, the faster they start the faster they slow and it also depends where the measure are taken. 

Try 

https://shotgunreport.com/2017/04/20/all-the-speed-you-need/

Always a good read but subject to the usual variables.

 

 

 

[mgsontour]

39 minutes ago, Shotkam said:

There doesn't seem to be a lot of research findings published relating to this subject, which is why I posted this.

As I am planning to load some test loads to trial it would be valuable information.

Manufacturers must know that it does but I am still unsure due to the inconsistency in the range of fps cartridges Game cartridges they offer.

For example:

20 gauge Gamebore Black Gold               32g fibre 5   -   1425 fps

20 gauge Hull High Pheasant Extreme     32g fibre 5   -   1360 fps

Perhaps other have a knowledge of this ?

IMHO I feel the subject has been made overly complicated to increase the sales of new and improved carts that has key words stamped on them; ie: high, extreme etc

If you simply want to know which cart to use then simply try a few different ones until you find one that suits you and your gun as in the real world stats mean nothing ( it's how you hit the target ) and please take that as a genuine helpful point of view

[Shotkam]

19 minutes ago, Stonepark said:

Those tend to be the 1m speeds, whilst wad and shot load is still intact and helping each other.... For true velocity of individual pellets you need the observed velocities, which are taken further out.

 

If you have a hull or gamebore cartridges and split one open count and weigh pellets to confirm size, the observed velocities are given in graphs on their website, knowing the mass of pellets its possible to calculate energy.

 

For Black Gold 7.5 (continental sized) 20m observed velocity is 879ft\sec, dropping from 1500 at muzzle, if you go through the graphs for similar sized shot in their clay range from 1400 to 1500 at muzzle, makes 15ft\sec difference at 20m, which is negligible energy wise, so I wouldn't worry about individual mv as long as you are in the ballpark.

 

 

Ah, Ok.

When it comes to reloading I will get some recipe's off the experienced re-loaders to start with.

 

Thanks for all the speedy replies - a bit more to think about now !

[Blueflame]

Hi Shotkam,  I have found lots of good information on ballistics , patterns et all in the Ely Hawk Shooters Diary. They state that their std velocity cartridges have a nominal observed velocity measured at 20 yd’s from the muzzle of 1070ft per sec. Their HV cartridges have 1120ft per sec. And show the difference in lead that would have on a crossing pheasant at 40yds . Bingo! And the answer is a 45yd crosser with std velocity requires 9’ 6” of lead, using their HV  cartridges the lead required is 9’1”. That’s 5” difference on a lead of over 9’.   In practise  no one would be able to tell the difference. 

[wymberley]

1 hour ago, Stonepark said:

Those tend to be the 1m speeds, whilst wad and shot load is still intact and helping each other.... For true velocity of individual pellets you need the observed velocities, which are taken further out.

 

If you have a hull or gamebore cartridges and split one open count and weigh pellets to confirm size, the observed velocities are given in graphs on their website, knowing the mass of pellets its possible to calculate energy.

 

For Black Gold 7.5 (continental sized) 20m observed velocity is 879ft\sec, dropping from 1500 at muzzle, if you go through the graphs for similar sized shot in their clay range from 1400 to 1500 at muzzle, makes 15ft\sec difference at 20m, which is negligible energy wise, so I wouldn't worry about individual mv as long as you are in the ballpark.

 

 

Surely the observed velocity would be c1100ft/sec. The measured velocity at 20m is as said.

[wymberley]

50 minutes ago, Blueflame said:

Hi Shotkam,  I have found lots of good information on ballistics , patterns et all in the Ely Hawk Shooters Diary. They state that their std velocity cartridges have a nominal observed velocity measured at 20 yd’s from the muzzle of 1070ft per sec. Their HV cartridges have 1120ft per sec. And show the difference in lead that would have on a crossing pheasant at 40yds . Bingo! And the answer is a 45yd crosser with std velocity requires 9’ 6” of lead, using their HV  cartridges the lead required is 9’1”. That’s 5” difference on a lead of over 9’.   In practise  no one would be able to tell the difference. 

Just in case it helps to avoid any confusion, the observed velocity is that measured over 20 yards and which in practice is the velocity at some 9.5 yards

[Shotkam]

Good stuff Blue flame.

That lead will be for 'maintained lead' and as we all know it will be completely different for 'pull away' or 'swing through' which the majority of shooter's use.

 

[Scully]

Yep…..variables. 

[Blueflame]

The lead figure quoted by Ely is the mathematical figure for a bird crossing directly across 180 degrees to the gun . Whatever method is used to obtain that lead does not alter the distance, only our perception of the distance. 

[Shotkam]

Maybe they calculate their lead for 'spot shooting' 😂

[WalkedUp]

Many years ago computers were sold on how large the hard drive was and digital cameras on how many megapixel. The marketing companies love some objective value they can point to and say they are the best because 4 is better than 3 when selling to men. If you think it makes a big difference and laugh at your wife thinking the DFS sale is ~really~ ending then you have been duped. 

[Ultrastu]

I'd say the biggest velocity  difference at range (40 yds say) between one cartridge brand  and  another isn't the starting velocity  but how the wad holds the pellets together and for what distance  before it peals away  .a wad that say holds the pellets for 10  yds over another that holds it for only 5 yds will mean the 40 yds velocity of the 10 ydr wad will on average  be greater than the 5 yd wad. Irrespective  of start velocity  .this is because  when all together  the pellets have a much higher bc retaining velocity and energy for a greater distance  .

This is why plas wads with an effective cup can pattern better and seem to hit harder than a fiber wad .

[wymberley]

29 minutes ago, Ultrastu said:

I'd say the biggest velocity  difference at range (40 yds say) between one cartridge brand  and  another isn't the starting velocity  but how the wad holds the pellets together and for what distance  before it peals away  .a wad that say holds the pellets for 10  yds over another that holds it for only 5 yds will mean the 40 yds velocity of the 10 ydr wad will on average  be greater than the 5 yd wad. Irrespective  of start velocity  .this is because  when all together  the pellets have a much higher bc retaining velocity and energy for a greater distance  .

This is why plas wads with an effective cup can pattern better and seem to hit harder than a fiber wad .

Another reason why the makers should revert to the cartridge speed in terms of observed velocity.

[London Best]

8 hours ago, Shotkam said:

 

20 gauge Gamebore Black Gold               32g fibre 5   -   1425 fps

20 gauge Hull High Pheasant Extreme     32g fibre 5   -   1360 fps

 

That is 65 FPS difference. Do not imagine that each cartridge in a box fires at those velocities. It is likely that any individual round will vary by that 65fps.

[Gas seal]

Hi Shotkam yes speed does have an effect on the energy of the pellets. When I load cartridges l go with ,the velocity at 50yards would be half of the muzzle velocity. The ft lb at 50yards would be a quarter of the muzzle ft lb . This was my rule of thumb, I load wildfowl cartridges but I have loaded lead number 7shot an ounce or less, a fast load, l didn’t have a crono then so I can’t put a speed on them but they were very fast and killed pigeons. this light load was a lot better than the factory 5s or 6s game type loads. I was given some Baikal 12gauge AAA cartridges, they had a very tight pattern out of my single barrel Baikal ,up to 40yards I don’t think it opened up to 30 inch, It’s about balance, pellet weight and energy for the quarry you will be taking. When pattering your cartridges at 50yards, if you are near a freshly sown dry field fire your shot gun level across the field and you will find the pellets drop about 100yards .That’s 50yards further than you are pattering.You can only do your best with shotguns .

[Fellside]

16 hours ago, Gas seal said:

Hi Shotkam yes speed does have an effect on the energy of the pellets. When I load cartridges l go with ,the velocity at 50yards would be half of the muzzle velocity. The ft lb at 50yards would be a quarter of the muzzle ft lb . This was my rule of thumb, I load wildfowl cartridges but I have loaded lead number 7shot an ounce or less, a fast load, l didn’t have a crono then so I can’t put a speed on them but they were very fast and killed pigeons. this light load was a lot better than the factory 5s or 6s game type loads. I was given some Baikal 12gauge AAA cartridges, they had a very tight pattern out of my single barrel Baikal ,up to 40yards I don’t think it opened up to 30 inch, It’s about balance, pellet weight and energy for the quarry you will be taking. When pattering your cartridges at 50yards, if you are near a freshly sown dry field fire your shot gun level across the field and you will find the pellets drop about 100yards .That’s 50yards further than you are pattering.You can only do your best with shotguns .

Certainly while we need our pellets to have enough velocity and striking energy etc. I think pattern quality is so much more important. Whether a pellet is travelling at 820fps or 805 fps at 40 yards, it doesn’t make any practical difference. I have found that some of the so called high velocity loads only have an increased impact on the shoulder and pocket. 

[wymberley]

On 23/10/2021 at 11:10, Shotkam said:

There doesn't seem to be a lot of research findings published relating to this subject, which is why I posted this.

As I am planning to load some test loads to trial it would be valuable information.

Manufacturers must know that it does but I am still unsure due to the inconsistency in the range of fps cartridges Game cartridges they offer.

For example:

20 gauge Gamebore Black Gold               32g fibre 5   -   1425 fps

20 gauge Hull High Pheasant Extreme     32g fibre 5   -   1360 fps

Perhaps other have a knowledge of this ?

Have a look at the makers' own downrange velocities for both of those at, say, 20,30 and 40 metres.

[Agriv8]

I am not an expert but how the crimp is made and open must have an effect on muzzle velocity and why a reload cartridges are sometimes inconsistent nature !

the energy that the crimp retains then releases the lead behind must affect speed and therefore everything else . taking this slightly left field paper cartridges must have different characteristics to a plastic version when you think about the mechanics of a paper crimp Vers plastic. Always assumed they had to use more flake to get longer ranges but part of me thinks that cartridge manufacturers just put a tighter crimp on to contain the charge and let it go at a higher pressure.

whatever it is superfasts give me brain ache !

regards Agriv8 
 

[Scully]

What crimp!? 😀

[enfieldspares]

Other than square shot or anything that has a shape resembling a small half brick end round shot is very ballistically inefficient. So it's about the worst shape for retaining down range velocity. However lead being dense is other than tungsten or similar at least one of the best metals to use if you are going to be firing something out of a gun that is spherical. Be it shot or in extreme a cannonball.

The other factor is that larger shot (of the same spherical shape and of the same metal) will retain velocity better than smaller shot (of the same spherical shape and of the same metal) as the greater the weight the better the initial velocity is retained - note this...initial velocity. Which is why lead #5 kills further pellet for pellet than lead #7. But! Pattern fails before penetration so that muddies the water. 

So if you are going to use #5 then the cartridge that starts the shot with the greater velocity will leave that shot with a greater velocity as it passes forty yards than the cartridge that starts the shot with lesser velocity. Aha! The problem is that by that range unless you are extra tight double full super choke the pattern may be poor. With 32 gram of #5 I think your pellet count is enough to negate that...just!

But under 32 gram you may be getting more a very "gappy" pattern. Still enough pattern at past forty yards for pheasant and/or duck (where lead is legal) but not what I'd want as a first choice for partridge or woodcock where as less ft/lbs are needed to penetrate and kill I'd think you better with #6 on the partridge and #7 on the woodcock. 

[MARSH GUN]

On 23/10/2021 at 11:10, Shotkam said:

There doesn't seem to be a lot of research findings published relating to this subject, which is why I posted this.

As I am planning to load some test loads to trial it would be valuable information.

Manufacturers must know that it does but I am still unsure due to the inconsistency in the range of fps cartridges Game cartridges they offer.

For example:

20 gauge Gamebore Black Gold               32g fibre 5   -   1425 fps

20 gauge Hull High Pheasant Extreme     32g fibre 5   -   1360 fps

Perhaps other have a knowledge of this ?

Game Shooting - Does cartridge velocity have a significant effect over 40 yards on the effectiveness of a 20 gauge cartridge ?

Simple answer IMHO, Probably not. But with the caveat that although a faster initial load still has the laws of physics acting upon it, it will if it  starts out faster be quicker at the Finnish . Now what fps/ terminal FTlbs that delivers on target, and how significant it is on effectiveness depends on many variables .

 I believe a better yardstick than initial velocity or measured/ calculated speeds or effectiveness, might be to in field evaluation, that might or might not incude pattern testing depending on your school of thought on that subject. but will most certainly have evaluation of the given loads effectiveness on the chosen quary and in the choice specification of the gun.

  In the case of steel shot Fast/ hyper loads, the calculations show no advantage in effectiveness of a 1750/ 1800FPS 24 gram load over a 1350/ 1400fps load, in fact the slower load in many gun choke combinations will quite often show pattern densities greater than the high velocity loading.

 this fact and the calculations put a lot of wildfowlers off using the faster steel loadings, but if you can A get the quoted velocities from the readily available powders or get the fast loads to work as in pattern / be effective on quarry that is one other difficulty we face today. But if you can actually achieve such speeds stay within the gun you are using s pressure limits and get these fast loads to hold a pattern/ be effective at your over 40 yard ranges, then i myself use them and get on very well with them have done since around 2002 when i started loading these type of loads.

My feelings are, dont get hung up on the theories/ get out try the faster loads, see first hand what they are like, and how they work for you, It has gotten to the stage at least 15 years ago now, dont even try to talk fast loads to the vast majority of fowlers or shooters out there , just claim if asked "gamebore super steel" , It saves the debate and balistics quoting. Try for yourself and decide yourself is my advice.

[Shotkam]

Some interesting answers and data posted.

I think I shall cast some gel blocks next to test my theoretically preferred pheasant load of 32g UK No 6 3% antimony fibre wad.

It will be interesting to see how different powders affect the penetration in the gel and cross reference pattern quality on the pattern plate.

Also cross referencing against known brand game loads.