It's Got Silly And Is Getting worse

[wymberley]

This because I didn't want to corrupt Townie's Premium Cartridges thread.

I like to buy what I figure may be a half decent cartridge, but I won't fork out if I have to do the maker's work for them and work out what I'm getting. Currently, it seems that you have to no matter what you buy. Let's have a look at two products - Hull Imperial Game and Gamebore Regal, both in 30g and 6s. Hull are 1450ft/sec at the muzzle and Gamebore 1425 plus Gamebore are 410mps at V1. We're talking shotgun so do need a bit of give and take, but in this case, very little. Within 1mps both apparently run at 270 at 20m, 234 at 30 and 205 at 40m. On my Sierra Suite programme I have to run it at 1772 ft/sec (540 mps) to match those manufacturers figures. Let's tidy this up and put it in English with the give and take giving us respectively 886.5 at the 20, 768.3 the 30 and 669.8. However, those distances are in what would be metres, so 22, 33 and 44 yards all ish. In round figures, the 20 yards is 926, 30 794 and 40 694 which reflect that we're running at about a 1200 ft/sec Observed Velocity. Why not just say so? I can't be more precise, but as you'd expect, our 10 yard figure of 1177 is just shy of the 9.5 yard 1200ft/sec. Burrard tells me that the muzzle velocity is 1562 ft/sec so I'm not at all surprised to see that my programme figure for the 3 yard same/same is 1561.

[TIGHTCHOKE]

You really are quite hung up on this subject aren't you.  

Buy a box, cut one cartridge open, measure the lead, go out and shoot some at clays, decide whether they might help your shooting rather than hindering things.  

And then go out and shoot and try to enjoy the experience!  

 

This is what the vast majority of the rest of us do, it seems to work!  

[wymberley]

1 minute ago, TIGHTCHOKE said:

You really are quite hung up on this subject aren't you.  

Buy a box, cut one cartridge open, measure the lead, go out and shoot some at clays, decide whether they might help your shooting rather than hindering things.  

And then go out and shoot and try to enjoy the experience!  

 

This is what the vast majority of the rest of us do, it seems to work!  

Yep, bored out of my skull here. Let me know where I can get 2 new wrists and 1 knee because I'm also in agony here - driving's out. Mind you, where's the eggs I could manage to suck at least one. 🥰

[JDog]

5 minutes ago, TIGHTCHOKE said:

You really are quite hung up on this subject aren't you.  

Buy a box, cut one cartridge open, measure the lead, go out and shoot some at clays, decide whether they might help your shooting rather than hindering things.  

And then go out and shoot and try to enjoy the experience!  

 

This is what the vast majority of the rest of us do, it seems to work!  

There is a contingent on this forum who prefer to talk about cartridges, ballistics, shot size, velocity etc rather than getting out to shoot.

Several threads are running on these topics even now.

To me it is very boring. I know I don't have to read the threads but even so there must be a limit to what can be dissected about cartridges. 

[London Best]

3 minutes ago, wymberley said:

Yep, bored out of my skull here. Let me know where I can get 2 new wrists and 1 knee because I'm also in agony here - driving's out. Mind you, where's the eggs I could manage to suck at least one. 🥰

Fair enough, but myself I would rather read about your experiences during your shooting career.

Just saying.

[Mr grumpy]

😴

[TIGHTCHOKE]

I would just like to add, it is extremely unlikely that it is the cartridge at fault when you miss!   

[GingerCat]

I have a rule with cartridges, particularly when it comes to shooting pigeons. It's a simple rule. Anything bigger than 7, fibre, at or over 29g in weight. I have favourites but the terminal result is pretty much the same. Currently shooting ones in an orange box, better than the pigeon power I thought but when mixed I can't tell the difference. The clear pigeon in the clear cases are nice bit I can't tell where the extra tenner goes on a slab. Superfast are OK too. 

When it comes to pheasants and walking about the hedgerows anything 6 or over does the job.  I don't do driven shooting but I bet a pheasant at 40 yards is the same all round. 

Edited October 24, 2021 by GingerCat

[mellors]

On 24/10/2021 at 16:03, JDog said:

There is a contingent on this forum who prefer to talk about cartridges, ballistics, shot size, velocity etc rather than getting out to shoot.

Several threads are running on these topics even now.

To me it is very boring. I know I don't have to read the threads but even so there must be a limit to what can be dissected about cartridges. 

Your right but I've posted on the subject a bit when i first started reloading steel to no avail lots of don't do this don't do that. Thankfully I've sorted my reloading out myself and now sorted with tested loads. Regarding dissected cartridges all of the brands have a percentage variation some a lot more than others in the same box. So it does make a difference and worth knowing. 

I'm out 3 or 4 days a week and there's not much point putting reports up as there's always the same few house bound keyboard tappers to find fault or ridicule. 

Shame really as there's a lot of good information and advice on the forum. 

[marsh man]

I don't think the older generation have got the slightest interest in how fast the shot travel per second and maybe several of younger ones as well 

I am far to old to change the way I shoot to adjust to the speed of the different cartridges I get through in the course of a year , a subject that never enter my head

I accept there are many who do like to talk about the ballistics of shotgun cartridges but the real test is out in the field , and we would soon know this day age if a certain cartridge was next to useless , like T C said , it is rarely the cartridge at fault when owner pull the trigger , a bit like gun dogs really  ,where the dog is blamed for poor training , whereas  the dog trainer need training more than the dog 

[ditchman]

i dont have these problems anymore 

[Centrepin]

1 hour ago, mellors said:

 

I'm out 3 or 4 days a week and there's not much point putting reports up as there's always the same few house bound keyboard tappers to find fault or ridicule. 

Shame really as there's a lot of good information and advice on the forum. 

Just ignore them or the good information drys up.

50 minutes ago, marsh man said:

I don't think the older generation have got the slightest interest in how fast the shot travel per second and maybe several of younger ones as well 

I am far to old to change the way I shoot to adjust to the speed of the different cartridges I get through in the course of a year , a subject that never enter my head

I accept there are many who do like to talk about the ballistics of shotgun cartridges but the real test is out in the field , and we would soon know this day age if a certain cartridge was next to useless , like T C said , it is rarely the cartridge at fault when owner pull the trigger , a bit like gun dogs really  ,where the dog is blamed for poor training , whereas  the dog trainer need training more than the dog 

Yup. 

26 minutes ago, ditchman said:

i dont have these problems anymore 

Don't you miss it

[TIGHTCHOKE]

6 minutes ago, Centrepin said:

Don't you miss it

He often did!  

[Centrepin]

1 minute ago, TIGHTCHOKE said:

He often did!  

Not according to fat Sarah 

[TIGHTCHOKE]

5 minutes ago, Centrepin said:

Not according to fat Sarah 

Gordon Bennett, never mention Fat Sarah!   

[ditchman]

5 hours ago, Centrepin said:

Just ignore them or the good information drys up.

Yup. 

Don't you miss it

i stopped missing it when i started to throw dead birds in the hedge..........i just couldnt equate taking a life and disgarding it to rot away..........i always used to be able to sell or use the birds and i was very happy to do so for that reason.........i have had a certificate for over 50 years ...so it was a difficult desision to make....i love to read of others exploits for what ever reason they shoot for...so giving up for me was a very personal "thing"

[TIGHTCHOKE]

Don't worry, i will put your cartridges to good use!  

[mellors]

7 hours ago, marsh man said:

I don't think the older generation have got the slightest interest in how fast the shot travel per second and maybe several of younger ones as well 

I am far to old to change the way I shoot to adjust to the speed of the different cartridges I get through in the course of a year , a subject that never enter my head

I accept there are many who do like to talk about the ballistics of shotgun cartridges but the real test is out in the field , and we would soon know this day age if a certain cartridge was next to useless , like T C said , it is rarely the cartridge at fault when owner pull the trigger , a bit like gun dogs really  ,where the dog is blamed for poor training , whereas  the dog trainer need training more than the dog 

I count myself as the older generation now. Not interested in ballistics just wanted to load my own steel consistently after down grading to 20 bore for pigeon decoying and have now sorted it and all good. Shame certain people don't want to share information  (read the relevant posts and you'll see) which would have helped but that's there choice.

Anyone needing help with standard 20 gauge steel loads can ask me and I'll help all i can. 

 

 

 

 

[marsh man]

54 minutes ago, mellors said:

I count myself as the older generation now. Not interested in ballistics just wanted to load my own steel consistently after down grading to 20 bore for pigeon decoying and have now sorted it and all good. Shame certain people don't want to share information  (read the relevant posts and you'll see) which would have helped but that's there choice.

Anyone needing help with standard 20 gauge steel loads can ask me and I'll help all i can. 

 

 

 

 

Good of you to share your information as a lot of people who I know are moving down to a 20 gauge, as you might know you come to a age where everything is a lot heavier than it used to be , and nowadays with the price of cartridges only going in one direction I am sure some would like to load their own for the first time without having all the knowledge gained by the ones who have now got reloading down to perfection , or very near to it 

All the best   MM

[HantsRob]

On 24/10/2021 at 15:41, wymberley said:

I like to buy what I figure may be a half decent cartridge, but I won't fork out if I have to do the maker's work for them and work out what I'm getting. 

To be fair this is no different to ideal/perfect situations. Rolling roads for MPG ratings, perfect humidity and temperature. 

The geek inside me would like to know the exact conditions. It could be hammer strike speed, different test primer, hand loaded rather than machine loaded, temperature, humidity, type of barrel, lubrication, and what not. I suspect the hand load vs machine may play a big factor. Hand load can be hand counted shot, and an exact amount of gunpowder. This is against the variance/tolerance in machine loads which may have.... 2-3% variance? 3% over on load and 3% under on powder would have a big difference over hand loaded. 

17% slower seems huge. But this assumes your figures are accurate. 

Finally though, forgetting drag vs calculated.... at 1450 feet a second.... on a clay that's 30 foot away... I think a 17% speed difference with a good spread means zilch. As above, if you miss it's not the cart....

But, hopefully you see the above as a geeky thought, rather than someone battling against

[Gas seal]

Hi Mellors it is about reloading, it is the reloading section. Reloading has been my hobby since the eighties and l am one of the older generation, four grandchildren and five great grandchildren. I downsize to 28gauge and 20gauge years ago and never looked back. It’s good you are willing to share your 20gauge load, and your experience. I would use phone books for penetration testing. I now use a chronograph and home made ballistic gel.Pellet energy can be calculated on computers now, in the Greener book 1891 they put a live pigeon in a wooden box 6 inch by 7 inch and fired a 28gauge shot gun at it to test pattern and penetration, Cartridges have come a long way since then, and reading the old books they killed thousands of game birds with them and anything that prays on game. I would have thought that the cartridge testing would have been on the new bio type cartridges on the market.

[wymberley]

17 hours ago, HantsRob said:

To be fair this is no different to ideal/perfect situations. Rolling roads for MPG ratings, perfect humidity and temperature. 

The geek inside me would like to know the exact conditions. It could be hammer strike speed, different test primer, hand loaded rather than machine loaded, temperature, humidity, type of barrel, lubrication, and what not. I suspect the hand load vs machine may play a big factor. Hand load can be hand counted shot, and an exact amount of gunpowder. This is against the variance/tolerance in machine loads which may have.... 2-3% variance? 3% over on load and 3% under on powder would have a big difference over hand loaded. 

17% slower seems huge. But this assumes your figures are accurate. 

Finally though, forgetting drag vs calculated.... at 1450 feet a second.... on a clay that's 30 foot away... I think a 17% speed difference with a good spread means zilch. As above, if you miss it's not the cart....

But, hopefully you see the above as a geeky thought, rather than someone battling against

Geek away, no complaint from me.

Apparently, I'm also one, but don't give two hoots. It's normally very rare for me to change my cartridge - or choke (it would have to be the gun) for that matter. 32g of 6&1/2s by Rottweil until I couldn't get them locally any more (I moved) then same by Eley until they stopped making them, but with the internet, I'm back to the Rottweil. Where did that 40 odd years go? Age grabs you so it's then 28g of 7s. Fine for a few years and then bloody arthritis, so it's now 20 bore. Read some threads and the cartridge makers do no wrong; perusal of others reflect that they're ripping us off. You pays your money and takes your choice. I'll read a bit and possibly then if I have to change, buy a box. Open a couple up carefully and have a look at the shot, pour it back in, reseal and mark crimp as this will be a couple for the barrel. All being well, off to the pattern plate and check for density and quality of spread. I will admit that for any given pellet count I do like to see the lower end number from the range of non overlapping 5" discs. Finally, have a realistic view of actual velocity. If this seems reasonable go shoot. If good, buy a load and hope they remain available for a while - with my luck the way 7s are disappearing they probably won't be. Never mind, the makers know best.

I've done all that I can to make sure that I'm able to shoot in a sportsmanlike fashion which, if that makes me a geek, so be it.

[Bigdavet]

Has anyone done a crono test on quad seal cartridges through an over bored and back bored gun? To see if it actually prevents the gasses escaping past like they it does on a fibre cartridge .