Legal question ?.

[samboy]

Hi gang.

              Can the police just turn up at your front door and demand to see your shotguns and firearms Or do they have to make an appointment ?.

               I was always led to believe you could turn them away with the shotguns but had to give them access with the firearms.

               Was talking about this with some friends and nobody seemed to know.

                                                                                                                     Thanks all.

[mgsontour]

Unsure legally but they are a powerful lot so if there was good reason then absolutely yes they can and if in the mood take the guns and you away for good measure

[Bobba]

I too would be interested in knowing the answer to this question. Particularly a constructive answer with reference to legal / Home Office guidance documents etc and not just personal opinion based on nothing.

I have looked at a number of legal advice websites including citizens advice. There are circumstances in police can enter and search your premises without a warrant but to inspect your gun cabinet is not one of them!

I have no ulterior motive. Just to confirm or reject my understanding, which I acknowledge is based on hearsay, that the police have to make an appointment.

Edited October 30, 2021 by Bobba

[Centrepin]

Sitting on the fence, I would say, first, why do they want access?

Then..... if you deny them, and I believe you can. What are you hiding?

They'll just come back with a warrant and you'll loose the lot.

Unless you're at least a barrister and I don't mean a coffee maker, refusing a reasonable request leaves you wide open to a vindictive copper.

 

[Wylye]

If there are no issues, why would you object? I agree that its a bit strong just turning up at your door but they do have the powers to enter your home 'statutory right of entry' I think its called. Apart from feeling a bit miffed you don't have a leg to stand on!

[Walker570]

3 minutes ago, Wylye said:

If there are no issues, why would you object? I agree that its a bit strong just turning up at your door but they do have the powers to enter your home 'statutory right of entry' I think its called. Apart from feeling a bit miffed you don't have a leg to stand on!

As above, ask them if they take milk and sugar in their coffee and get some biscuits out ..... usually works on a friendly visit. If it isn't a friendly visit then they should explain their reasoning which you have not included.   Being obstructive and or mouthy is not going to see you out shooting for a while.

[JDog]

Why would the Police just turn up at someone's door without making an appointment? If they did they must have serious concerns. 

[London Best]

As I have always said to firearms enquiry officers, “if you are passing anytime, feel free to call in.” 
They, and any other police officers, are welcome to call at my house any time they like.

[wymberley]

5 minutes ago, Walker570 said:

As above, ask them if they take milk and sugar in their coffee and get some biscuits out ..... usually works on a friendly visit. If it isn't a friendly visit then they should explain their reasoning which you have not included.   Being obstructive and or mouthy is not going to see you out shooting for a while.

I can't quite remember now, but wasn't there some fuss and bother about unscheduled gun security checks following an incident 'up north' a while back. Other than that I believe only HM's Customs and the ' Gas Board' have the right of entry into your house.

[CharlieT]

Statutory Guidance on Firearms Licensing, which comes into effect on 1st November https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/statutory-guidance-for-police-on-firearms-licensing/statutory-guidance-for-chief-officers-of-police-on-firearms-licensing-accessible-version-from-1-november-2021 states........

 

Unannounced visits

4.7 In the case of certificate holders, the police should undertake an unannounced visit or inspection where it is judged necessary to do so, based on specific intelligence in light of a particular threat, or risk of harm. It is not expected that the police will undertake unannounced visits or inspections at an unsocial hour unless there is a justified and specific requirement to do so on the grounds of crime prevention or public safety concerns, and the police judge that this action is both justified and proportionate.

4.8 A power of entry, subject to warrant, is available to the police. While this is an important power, it will not be necessary in all cases where an inspection or home visit is required. It is expected that responsible certificate holders will co-operate with reasonable requests to inspect security arrangements or other aspects of suitability, and failure to do so may be taken into account when police consider suitability to possess the firearms. To mitigate any misunderstanding on the part of the certificate holder, the police should provide a clear and reasoned explanation to the certificate holder at the time of the visit.

4.9 RFDs’ premises should be visited from time to time to inspect stock in hand and/or the register. Dealers are required by section 40(4) of the 1968 Act to permit such inspections by police officers or civilian officers, authorised in writing by the chief officer of police. Such written authorisation must be produced on demand.

Edited October 30, 2021 by CharlieT

[Newbie to this]

This was mentioned to me on the police visit during my first application.

He told me that there could be occation where the police may make an unannounced visit, he did say you don't have to grant access, but it is expected as a cert holder.

Seems fair to me.

[Walker570]

3 hours ago, wymberley said:

I can't quite remember now, but wasn't there some fuss and bother about unscheduled gun security checks following an incident 'up north' a while back. Other than that I believe only HM's Customs and the ' Gas Board' have the right of entry into your house.

HM Customs can go wherever they wish and do.  They do not mess about unless things have changed since my time.

2 hours ago, CharlieT said:

Statutory Guidance on Firearms Licensing, which comes into effect on 1st November https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/statutory-guidance-for-police-on-firearms-licensing/statutory-guidance-for-chief-officers-of-police-on-firearms-licensing-accessible-version-from-1-november-2021 states........

 

Unannounced visits

4.7 In the case of certificate holders, the police should undertake an unannounced visit or inspection where it is judged necessary to do so, based on specific intelligence in light of a particular threat, or risk of harm. It is not expected that the police will undertake unannounced visits or inspections at an unsocial hour unless there is a justified and specific requirement to do so on the grounds of crime prevention or public safety concerns, and the police judge that this action is both justified and proportionate.

4.8 A power of entry, subject to warrant, is available to the police. While this is an important power, it will not be necessary in all cases where an inspection or home visit is required. It is expected that responsible certificate holders will co-operate with reasonable requests to inspect security arrangements or other aspects of suitability, and failure to do so may be taken into account when police consider suitability to possess the firearms. To mitigate any misunderstanding on the part of the certificate holder, the police should provide a clear and reasoned explanation to the certificate holder at the time of the visit.

4.9 RFDs’ premises should be visited from time to time to inspect stock in hand and/or the register. Dealers are required by section 40(4) of the 1968 Act to permit such inspections by police officers or civilian officers, authorised in writing by the chief officer of police. Such written authorisation must be produced on demand.

Yep. Puts it the posh way that I did.  If you have nothing to hide then what is the problem. As said put the caffee pot on.  They are not there wasting their time, there is a reason.

[Jim2915]

6 hours ago, CharlieT said:

Unannounced visits

4.7 In the case of certificate holders, the police should undertake an unannounced visit or inspection where it is judged necessary to do so, based on specific intelligence in light of a particular threat, or risk of harm. It is not expected that the police will undertake unannounced visits or inspections at an unsocial hour unless there is a justified and specific requirement to do so on the grounds of crime prevention or public safety concerns, and the police judge that this action is both justified and proportionate.

4.8 A power of entry, subject to warrant, is available to the police. While this is an important power, it will not be necessary in all cases where an inspection or home visit is required. It is expected that responsible certificate holders will co-operate with reasonable requests to inspect security arrangements or other aspects of suitability, and failure to do so may be taken into account when police consider suitability to possess the firearms. To mitigate any misunderstanding on the part of the certificate holder, the police should provide a clear and reasoned explanation to the certificate holder at the time of the visit.

4.9 RFDs’ premises should be visited from time to time to inspect stock in hand and/or the register. Dealers are required by section 40(4) of the 1968 Act to permit such inspections by police officers or civilian officers, authorised in writing by the chief officer of police. Such written authorisation must be produced on demand.

Normally it would be as per this. There is no legal power for police to enter your property to simply inspect your firearms/shotguns  If you refuse courts can grant a warrant to allow police to effect this. If it gets to this stage though I doubt you would get to keep them as you are failing to co-operate. 
 

Police Officers do however have other powers of entry without warrant. Firstly common law ( to prevent a breach of the peace) and section 17 of the police and criminal evidence act (things like to effect an arrest or to save life and limb). There are other times/powers police have if entering any property, these are just common examples.  You cannot refuse in these circumstances and if you do they will simply take the door off its hinges. 

These powers obviously aren’t specific to firearms licensing but could be used at anytime to recover firearms if you gave them a reason to such as committing an offence! Not saying anyone here would! 

[Scully]

It’s quite simple really. If they call unexpectedly and it’s not convenient, then it’s up to you whether you let them in or not. You are perfectly entitled to ask them to call back when it is convenient. 

FEO’s always call first to see if it’s convenient. 

[Windswept]

8 minutes ago, Scully said:

FEO’s always call first to see if it’s convenient. 

Perhaps yours do but I've had a couple turn up unannounced because they simply could not be bothered to phone. One moaned he'd been waiting outside for over an hour as I'd been out! The other saided he'd phoned but checking my phone there were no missed calls so reach you own conclusions. I will not longer allow an unannounced visit without good reason.

[Scully]

21 minutes ago, Windswept said:

Perhaps yours do but I've had a couple turn up unannounced because they simply could not be bothered to phone. One moaned he'd been waiting outside for over an hour as I'd been out! The other saided he'd phoned but checking my phone there were no missed calls so reach you own conclusions. I will not longer allow an unannounced visit without good reason.

Ok, fair enough. In my experience FEO’ always call first.
The remainder is exactly what I said….’ if they call unexpectedly and it’s not convenient, then it’s up to you whether you let them in or not’. 
 

[Gordon R]

Quote

Perhaps yours do but I've had a couple turn up unannounced because they simply could not be bothered to phone. One moaned he'd been waiting outside for over an hour as I'd been out! The other saided he'd phoned but checking my phone there were no missed calls so reach you own conclusions. I will not longer allow an unannounced visit without good reason.

It's up to you and you don't say how you dealt with them.

I would have suggested to the first FEO that he / she could perhaps have phoned.

I would have pointed out to the second that no call had been recieved. i would have offered him my house and mobile phones and invited him to check for himself. I would not wish to get into a conflict with an FEO - there would normally be only one winner - but I would not be a doormat. 

Edited October 30, 2021 by Gordon R

[Wymondley]

Some years ago, a friend of mine had the police turn up one evening, asked to see his guns, no explanation.

After they'd checked each gun they told him a shotgun had been recovered following a "crime", and the serial no' on it matched one of his.

Once happy it wasn't his gun, they thanked him and left.

I guess it would've been different if he'd told them to go away as it wasn't convenient.

 

[Windswept]

It's not just a matter of 'not convenient', it's a serious matter of security. Many people will not know who the person is. I've not seen the same FEO twice, so both unannounced visits I didn't have a clue who they were (no photos on their web site for example and now there are no names). I've raised this and it's been suggested I could verify via 101, last time we called that for an unrelated reason it took them over an hour to answer. Note I'm talking about civilian FEOs not uniformed police.

Without wishing to go on I'd suggest the OP to ask thier own dept what they expect.

[CharlieT]

13 hours ago, Windswept said:

It's not just a matter of 'not convenient', it's a serious matter of security. Many people will not know who the person is. I've not seen the same FEO twice, so both unannounced visits I didn't have a clue who they were (no photos on their web site for example and now there are no names). I've raised this and it's been suggested I could verify via 101, last time we called that for an unrelated reason it took them over an hour to answer. Note I'm talking about civilian FEOs not uniformed police.

Without wishing to go on I'd suggest the OP to ask thier own dept what they expect.

The whole purpose of unannounced visits is that they are just that, unannounced and designed to catch you on the hop, they are not designed to be convenient. 

Intelligence led unannounced visits first started around 2014 and at that time the police reported on how worthwhile the initiative had been and that they should continue. Police figures, at that time, stated that 1254 unannounced visits had been conducted resulting in 28 certificate revocations, 107 cases where "advice" had been given, 25 written warnings issued and 62 further cases were under review.

A simple phone call to police HQ will confirm the visit is genuine. We might not like the idea of unannounced visits, but in the big scheme of things, I don't think it's a big deal.. 

[udderlyoffroad]

13 hours ago, Windswept said:

Note I'm talking about civilian FEOs not uniformed police.

I think you're confused: there is no such animal as a 'civilian FEO'.

An FEO is a serving police officer, albeit not generally in uniform.  Ask to see his warrant card before you let him in.  Only time mine has been called he didn't even have to be asked, he showed it to me when I answered the door to him.

If your force genuinely is sending round support staff to do the work of FEOs, then they had better have some means to identify themselves before you let them in.

By the way, police are civilians.

[Wylye]

23 hours ago, London Best said:

As I have always said to firearms enquiry officers, “if you are passing anytime, feel free to call in.” 
They, and any other police officers, are welcome to call at my house any time they like.

+1

[walshie]

Yes they can turn up and no you don't have to let them in if it's not convenient, but why aggravate them if you don't have to?

Unless I knew who they were, they'd be kept waiting at the front door till I'd checked they were genuine. 

[CharlieT]

1 hour ago, udderlyoffroad said:

I think you're confused: there is no such animal as a 'civilian FEO'.

An FEO is a serving police officer, albeit not generally in uniform.  Ask to see his warrant card before you let him in.  Only time mine has been called he didn't even have to be asked, he showed it to me when I answered the door to him.

If your force genuinely is sending round support staff to do the work of FEOs, then they had better have some means to identify themselves before you let them in.

By the way, police are civilians.

Not correct. The vast majority of FEO's are civilian employees of the police.

[London Best]

5 minutes ago, CharlieT said:

Not correct. The vast majority of FEO's are civilian employees of the police.

That is correct.
I have known one FEO who was still a serving officer, but not in the last twenty years.