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And you thought there are a lot of planes Flying around


bluesj
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I heard this week that if the USA went to all driving electric cars they would need over 200 new nuclear power stations, 10s of thousands of acres devoted to wind farms etc etc just to power them and I see that Volvo have now declared it is more damamging to the environment to produce electric cars than patrol/diesel cars.  We have some seriously crazy people in charge.

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2 hours ago, Walker570 said:

100%

I heard this week that if the USA went to all driving electric cars they would need over 200 new nuclear power stations, 10s of thousands of acres devoted to wind farms etc etc just to power them and I see that Volvo have now declared it is more damamging to the environment to produce electric cars than patrol/diesel cars.  We have some seriously crazy people in charge.

I did the calcs previously for the UK, we would need 50 nuclear power stations. In Scotland we now produce from renewables effectively 100% if the net electric we use but this only amounts to 20 of our energy use, the other 80% being oil, gas and a very limited extent coal.

 

Ignoring the intermittency issue, we would still need 5 times the current electricity production we have to ditch fossil fuels or UK as a whole would require 12 times the current electricity production and the only tech capable of be producing electricity in bulk reliably is Nuclear, more specifically Molten Salt Small Modular Reactors, 6 cores per power station.

 

Renewables are useful but will not cut it for baseload to power everything.

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12 hours ago, bluesj said:

Look at the ships sailing around !

https://www.marinetraffic.com/en/ais/home/centerx:4.7/centery:61.0/zoom:3

and cow farts are the biggest problem facing the world!

If they are sailing there is not a problem, but yes there are a lot of vessels out there, and even small ones have the capacity to have AIS, I could have it on my kayak but there is not much point.

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2 hours ago, henry d said:

If they are sailing there is not a problem, but yes there are a lot of vessels out there, and even small ones have the capacity to have AIS, I could have it on my kayak but there is not much point.

Funny how the French fishing boats don't seem to have it........

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14 hours ago, Walker570 said:

1I see that Volvo have now declared it is more damaging to the environment to produce electric cars than patrol/diesel cars.  We have some seriously crazy people in charge.

Interestingly, Volvo was the first car maker to announce that by 2025 their car production would be exclusively EVs...

The whole Nett Zero thing is an impossible pipe dream for the newly converted evangelical zealots like Boris, who previously spent years scoffing at the climate change doom mongers.

And all the while no one dares point out the real problem viz: Too many people on the planet...

If the global population continues to quadruple every 60 years or so - and there's no evidence that population growth is slowing down - nature will ultimately solve the problem one way or another, whatever we do or don't do today.

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52 minutes ago, Westward said:

Interestingly, Volvo was the first car maker to announce that by 2025 their car production would be exclusively EVs...

The whole Nett Zero thing is an impossible pipe dream for the newly converted evangelical zealots like Boris, who previously spent years scoffing at the climate change doom mongers.

And all the while no one dares point out the real problem viz: Too many people on the planet...

If the global population continues to quadruple every 60 years or so - and there's no evidence that population growth is slowing down - nature will ultimately solve the problem one way or another, whatever we do or don't do today.

Nature still could solve it with this pandemic, the next mutation could be the one that kills 50% of the population

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1 hour ago, Westward said:

Interestingly, Volvo was the first car maker to announce that by 2025 their car production would be exclusively EVs...

The whole Nett Zero thing is an impossible pipe dream for the newly converted evangelical zealots like Boris, who previously spent years scoffing at the climate change doom mongers.

And all the while no one dares point out the real problem viz: Too many people on the planet...

If the global population continues to quadruple every 60 years or so - and there's no evidence that population growth is slowing down - nature will ultimately solve the problem one way or another, whatever we do or don't do today.

100% but absolutely no mention of this at the conference or in the media.

40 minutes ago, bluesj said:

Nature still could solve it with this pandemic, the next mutation could be the one that kills 50% of the population

Well it was expected that should covid get free it would probably kill 10%. 

Edited by Walker570
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13 hours ago, Stonepark said:

I did the calcs previously for the UK, we would need 50 nuclear power stations. In Scotland we now produce from renewables effectively 100% if the net electric we use but this only amounts to 20 of our energy use, the other 80% being oil, gas and a very limited extent coal.

 

Ignoring the intermittency issue, we would still need 5 times the current electricity production we have to ditch fossil fuels or UK as a whole would require 12 times the current electricity production and the only tech capable of be producing electricity in bulk reliably is Nuclear, more specifically Molten Salt Small Modular Reactors, 6 cores per power station.

 

Renewables are useful but will not cut it for baseload to power everything.

Interesting, how many mwh did you assume each nuclear power station producing to need 50 of them? 

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Enough to power all those cars and trucks held up for over half an hour trying to get onto the M1 from the M18 on Friday afternoon.  I am not clever enough to know just how many vehiclses are in use in the country but my guess is it will take a very large production of electricty to keep them running AND some very large car parks so they can pull in and recharge on route. 

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4 hours ago, Westward said:

and there's no evidence that population growth is slowing down

Not strictly true and yes it is contentious but there is some evidence that general world fertility rates are and have been dropping since the late 60's (UN figures iirc but not 100% sure)

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3 hours ago, 12gauge82 said:

Interesting, how many mwh did you assume each nuclear power station producing to need 50 of them? 

Average of 6 X 200mw reactors per power station.

In addition renewables also continuing, aim is self sufficiency 365 days a year with a renewables surplus as well.

 

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4 minutes ago, Stonepark said:

Average of 6 X 200mw reactors per power station.

In addition renewables also continuing, aim is self sufficiency 365 days a year with a renewables surplus as well.

 

I know some of the older stations are capable of alot more than that and some have been running at over 700mw per reactor and that's reduced. I don't know what hinkley c will do per reactor but I'm sure it'll be alot more than that? 

Edited to add I've just googled it and I believe hinkley c will have 2 reactors producing 3200mwh.

So nuclear could be viable for base load, with alot less stations than you'd imagine, particularly if we crack fusion technologies. 

Edited by 12gauge82
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9 hours ago, henry d said:

If they are sailing there is not a problem, but yes there are a lot of vessels out there, and even small ones have the capacity to have AIS, I could have it on my kayak but there is not much point.

Ahh Sailing 🙂 The most expemsive way to get anywhere for free :lol:

You have to admire AIS as a system.

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3 hours ago, henry d said:

Not strictly true and yes it is contentious but there is some evidence that general world fertility rates are and have been dropping since the late 60's (UN figures iirc but not 100% sure)

The global population 60 years ago was about 2 billion, it now stands at an estimated 8 billion and it's clear the planet can't support that many people without irreparable damage.

The birth rate might be lower now but it's the poorer nations that are initially most affected by the destruction of the natural world, much of which destruction incidentally they are doing to themselves in places such as Congo, Borneo or Brazil. And it's mostly those same nations that have very high birth rates.

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3 hours ago, 12gauge82 said:

I know some of the older stations are capable of alot more than that and some have been running at over 700mw per reactor and that's reduced. I don't know what hinkley c will do per reactor but I'm sure it'll be alot more than that? 

Edited to add I've just googled it and I believe hinkley c will have 2 reactors producing 3200mwh.

So nuclear could be viable for base load, with alot less stations than you'd imagine, particularly if we crack fusion technologies. 

Large Nuclear plants are exactly that 1 or two reactors producing 800 to 1600mw each, but they only use 10% to 25% of the fuel, which then requires reprocessing or storing due to by-product contamination.

 

An MSR is a lot more efficent and can use U238 and Thorium as well as mixed fuel and waste from other reactors depending on design, rather than the <1% of Uranium that U235 composes that traditional reactors and bombs use, 2000 years of fuel supply is mineable.

 

In addition, the eventual side products are a lot less radioactive, the bulk being less than 20 years, the remainder roughly 300 years , compared to traditional NUC waste of 100's and 1000's of years storage requirements.

By using a modular design you can scale power stations to need, rather than fewer more centralised units, which if they are down for refueling or maintenance, creates a lot larger supply issue.

 

What Molten Salt MSR won't produce is bomb material, hence why historically Magnox, GCR and PWR reactors were preferred and developed.

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10 hours ago, Stonepark said:

Large Nuclear plants are exactly that 1 or two reactors producing 800 to 1600mw each, but they only use 10% to 25% of the fuel, which then requires reprocessing or storing due to by-product contamination.

 

An MSR is a lot more efficent and can use U238 and Thorium as well as mixed fuel and waste from other reactors depending on design, rather than the <1% of Uranium that U235 composes that traditional reactors and bombs use, 2000 years of fuel supply is mineable.

 

In addition, the eventual side products are a lot less radioactive, the bulk being less than 20 years, the remainder roughly 300 years , compared to traditional NUC waste of 100's and 1000's of years storage requirements.

By using a modular design you can scale power stations to need, rather than fewer more centralised units, which if they are down for refueling or maintenance, creates a lot larger supply issue.

 

What Molten Salt MSR won't produce is bomb material, hence why historically Magnox, GCR and PWR reactors were preferred and developed.

Thanks for that, really interesting, there's certainly some clever people out there. 

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26 minutes ago, 12gauge82 said:

Thanks for that, really interesting, there's certainly some clever people out there. 

They had all this figured out in the 50's and 60's and a lot of it was done by very clever people, especially as computers were't around to any great extent.

The Cold War imperative drove Nuclear in the wrong direction of dual use power and bomb material, rather than safe civilian nuclear power and effectively we are just catching up with ourselves 70 years later.

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