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London congestion charge.


samboy
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23 minutes ago, Scully said:

I once asked Newcastle council how their 10 quid tax for driving into the centre was going to make a difference to congestion and or climate change, given that if you weren’t bothered about 10 quid, you’d just pay it. I never received a reply. 

Possibly because you seem to be getting it wrong, they are charging £50 for high polluting lorries and buses registered 5-6 years ago vans and taxis were less than that and same age and up to euro 4-5-6 standard ( can't remember exactly) and nothing for private cars etc

I am to a certain degree in agreement with them as it can be choking in the toon at times with all the diesel and even though we are miles away from the centre we find that we get sore/gritty eyes some days but didn't when we lived in central Scotland.

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16 minutes ago, henry d said:

Possibly because you seem to be getting it wrong, they are charging £50 for high polluting lorries and buses registered 5-6 years ago vans and taxis were less than that and same age and up to euro 4-5-6 standard ( can't remember exactly) and nothing for private cars etc

I am to a certain degree in agreement with them as it can be choking in the toon at times with all the diesel and even though we are miles away from the centre we find that we get sore/gritty eyes some days but didn't when we lived in central Scotland.

At the time my son was at Uni’ they were mooting a 10 quid levy for ALL vehicles which wanted to enter the centre. 
My point however, which is still relevant in any UK town or city, was that if you paid the levy then the planet was no better off, making it simply a revenue gathering exercise. 
When I asked if everyone paid, ( rendering the planet no better off ) where did the monies raised go? No reply. 
The city of London, as far as I’m aware, has at no time ever, reduced its pollution levels below EU stipulated levels, even when it was a member, despite inflicting levy’s on vehicles in the capital for many a year. I haven’t asked London council where all this gathered revenue goes. 
From the capital to a small local market town, where parking wardens persecute drivers for overstaying time limits in a town where parking has never been a problem. It’s simply a revenue gathering exercise. 

 

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5 minutes ago, Scully said:

My point however, which is still relevant in any UK town or city, was that if you paid the levy then the planet was no better off...

That is the point, if you don't want to save the planet then you have to be persuaded to do something different, cleaner vehicles, better delivery systems etc rather than just carry on as normal. If your fall back is to ask where does the revenue go it's a non starter as they could have just done as you said at the start and applied the levy to all and the cash would just roll in.

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11 minutes ago, henry d said:

That is the point, if you don't want to save the planet then you have to be persuaded to do something different, cleaner vehicles, better delivery systems etc rather than just carry on as normal. If your fall back is to ask where does the revenue go it's a non starter as they could have just done as you said at the start and applied the levy to all and the cash would just roll in.

But they HAVE just applied the levy. How does charging anyone 10 or 100 quid benefit the air quality if they’re simply paying it and carrying on as normal?

Climate change levy’s ( as always ) just effect those who can least afford it.
Do you not think it strange that ‘going green’ more often than not involves creating a new tax, or buying something new or replacing it with something else, specifically made for ( with all the carbon footprint that manufacture entails ) the purpose of ( it is claimed ) benefitting the planet? 
You’ll have to excuse my cynicism, but I worked in the eco friendly/sustainable/passiv building industry for around 15 years. 

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I raised the same question when they brought in a clean air zone to Bath earlier this year (for commercial vehicles only currently). Due to my van not being the latest euro 6 I now have to pay £9/day if I enter the zone, which is impossible not to working in most parts of the city. 
The issue I have is that I’m working for the people of the city, yet paying to do so (or they are) as I can’t just ‘choose’ not to drive in or use the park and ride as regular people could, so wonder how my money will reduce pollution? 
 

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13 hours ago, Scully said:

Climate change levy’s ( as always ) just effect those who can least afford it.
Do you not think it strange that ‘going green’ more often than not involves creating a new tax, or buying something new or replacing it with something else, specifically made for ( with all the carbon footprint that manufacture entails ) the purpose of ( it is claimed ) benefitting the planet? 

You'll end up on henrys ignore list if you keep throwing common sense arguments like that at him :lol:

 

1 hour ago, Wilts#Dave said:

The issue I have is that I’m working for the people of the city, yet paying to do so (or they are) as I can’t just ‘choose’ not to drive in or use the park and ride as regular people could, so wonder how my money will reduce pollution? 

Thats it , in a nutshell , we are being forced into paying more and more taxes , so we can go to work to pay taxes, whatever you earn net, you then spend on more consumer items, often leading to more pollution, that you will be taxed on too.
Inflict some guilt on the populace for the situation that big business and government has forced you into, and you have the perfect conditions for future totalitarianism.
These days the guilt trip of 'saving the planet' starts in early schooling, the same kids being literally bombarded with advertising for more plastic rubbish, sweet things in plastic wrappers, and media that uses increasing amounts of electricity, THEN they tell you to use less and guilt trip you into believing its all your fault, or worse , your parents.

You could reduce pollution in one fell swoop, ban advertising on TV , but I wouldnt hold your breath on that one.

They could use your 'pollution tax ' money to purchase and power a machine in town centres that could clean the air, but I wouldnt hold your breath on that one either.
Do you remember the baseless claim that pollution in London caused the deaths of 40000 people a year ?
So how has the C charge and ULEZ reduced pollution and those 'deaths' , it hasnt, but I bet its paid for some failing services , and some nice woke statues and art.
At least it didnt get wasted eh ?

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20 minutes ago, Centrepin said:

I've avoided London like the plague since the very first time I was forced to go in the late 60s.

Since then unless I'm actually paid to be there I wouldn't go for any reason. I can't imagine paying to enter such a vile place.

 

If you thought it was bad in the 60 s !

You have no idea what kind of cess pool some areas have become.

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22 hours ago, Scully said:

But they HAVE just applied the levy. How does charging anyone 10 or 100 quid benefit the air quality if they’re simply paying it and carrying on as normal?

Because not everyone can afford it. Take the example of Newcastle; £50 extra for each cabbie or lorry driving in. They pass on the charge to the end user, but those who change over to electric or higher standard vehicles don't need to pass on the charge, who do you get your ride or supplies from?

22 hours ago, Scully said:

Do you not think it strange that ‘going green’ more often than not involves creating a new tax, or buying something new or replacing it with something else, specifically made for ( with all the carbon footprint that manufacture entails ) the purpose of ( it is claimed ) benefitting the planet? 

Don't know about you but I have several photos of myself and parents in the smog of London in the early 60's. Could you imagine that nowadays if we had carried on the same way? It wasn't even the worst smog, ten years earlier when thousands died, both were only a few days long.

Now we have central heating, double glazing and we don't put 80/90% of our heating up the chimney along with the products of that combustion. So back to congestion charges, if you want people to change their habits you have to do something and with smog it was the clean air act, locally it is congestion charges.

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1 minute ago, henry d said:

Because not everyone can afford it. Take the example of Newcastle; £50 extra for each cabbie or lorry driving in. They pass on the charge to the end user, but those who change over to electric or higher standard vehicles don't need to pass on the charge, who do you get your ride or supplies from?

Don't know about you but I have several photos of myself and parents in the smog of London in the early 60's. Could you imagine that nowadays if we had carried on the same way? It wasn't even the worst smog, ten years earlier when thousands died, both were only a few days long.

Now we have central heating, double glazing and we don't put 80/90% of our heating up the chimney along with the products of that combustion. So back to congestion charges, if you want people to change their habits you have to do something and with smog it was the clean air act, locally it is congestion charges.

But you need to give people viable alternatives, agreed not everyone could afford the congestion charge, but if they can't afford that I'll bet you they can't afford a brand new electric vehicle that by the way probably has a higher carbon footprint anyway due to the build process than throwing away a perfectly decent car anyway. 

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8 hours ago, samboy said:

My philosophy is if you've got any money spend it. That's exactly what i'm doing.  Enjoying what i have saved over the years. 

 

7 hours ago, Centrepin said:

Since then unless I'm actually paid to be there I wouldn't go for any reason. I can't imagine paying to enter such a vile place.

 

"Ok, boomer"

Some of us have to earn a crust, and it's hard to save money when we're being taxed on our taxes just to get to work.

23 hours ago, henry d said:

they are charging £50 for high polluting lorries and buses registered 5-6 years ago vans and taxis were less than that and same age and up to euro 4-5-6 standard ( can't remember exactly) and nothing for private cars etc

Ahem.  Per TFL's website:

Quote

Cars need to meet minimum emissions standards when travelling within the Ultra Low Emission Zone (ULEZ) or the daily charge must be paid.

...

Petrol: Euro 4
Diesel: Euro 6

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19 hours ago, henry d said:

Because not everyone can afford it. Take the example of Newcastle; £50 extra for each cabbie or lorry driving in. They pass on the charge to the end user, but those who change over to electric or higher standard vehicles don't need to pass on the charge, who do you get your ride or supplies from?

Don't know about you but I have several photos of myself and parents in the smog of London in the early 60's. Could you imagine that nowadays if we had carried on the same way? It wasn't even the worst smog, ten years earlier when thousands died, both were only a few days long.

Now we have central heating, double glazing and we don't put 80/90% of our heating up the chimney along with the products of that combustion. So back to congestion charges, if you want people to change their habits you have to do something and with smog it was the clean air act, locally it is congestion charges.

Does it work like that though Henry, in reality? In my experience those who have a new vehicle to pay for generally increase the cost of the services they supply. I mean, they only have those in a similar boat to compete with , as those who can’t afford to change to a more ‘acceptable’ vehicle have gone bust. 
I’m assuming the clean air act isn’t cutting it anymore then, despite changing to smokeless fuel etc.  I wonder what will happen in 50 years time say, if it still isn’t, or if it is found that electrical impulses are having a detrimental effect on either the environment or human health? If it’s such a problem then perhaps ‘park and ride’ is the answer to congestion in towns and cities? Let’s just stop ALL vehicles from entering our town and city centres. Perhaps the answer is for everyone to shop online, and as in lockdown, all those who can, work from home? That way our city and town centres would be devoid of all vehicles except electric buses for those who live there, and electric haulage trams delivering……oh, hang on a minute!
Just think of all that lost revenue in parking fees and fines! It’s got to be worth it if only to put traffic wardens out of work! 🙂There would be a huge increase in delivery vans obviously, but all those delivery companies can afford to go electric anyhow, so not a problem. 
All those kids attending uni’ each year could have all their goods and chattels delivered enmasse via electric powered couriers. It would be much less hassle for parents! 
Yes, we have double glazing and central heating now, with all the carbon footprint that their manufacture creates. It won’t be too long until we have air conditioning units too. We also have dish washers, tumble dryers, microwaves ( I don’t own any of these incidentally, nor do I have double glazing or central heating ) and all manner of consumer led products, but that’s progress for you. 🙂

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I've got to pay the ULEZ tomorrow, car has a fault, so got to take the van in.

Still cheaper and quicker than getting public transport, I'm on the train today, 3 times as expensive and about 2.5 times longer journey. 🤬🤬🤬

He has provided NO other affordable option, so dirty diesel pollution until the car is repaired it is.

Edit - I also know of 2 people who had to get rid of their Diesel cars, (both live inside the ULEZ zone), both cars had better emissions than my Petrol car, but mine is exempt.

Edited by Newbie to this
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I actually work for a company that operates vehicles on behalf of transport for London. Luckily enough my garage is on the border of the zone so I don't have to get rid of my old 2006 diesel. The reason I have a dusty old diesel is because I have to commute from sunny Essex which is a round trip of about 75 miles a day, which obviously costs a fair bit on fuel every week. Also other than the fact I couldn't afford a new car even if I wanted one, I also couldn't justify having a new car and racking up the milage and wear and tear I do commuting. I start work at unsociable hours and again other than the fact that the trains and buses local to me don't run when I need them to, the cost of getting a train and about 4 buses would make it unviable to work where I do. If the zone came out any further I would have to seriously consider my options. If this proposed outer London charge comes in it would also be a genuine worry. I appreciate the intention of the ulez but I can't help but think it is another tax on the poor. It doesn't make sense to me that a more polluting petrol car can drive in the zone, but a cleaner diesel can't. It also boggles me that classic cars are exempt even though they are more polluting. A lot of what TFL does is just to look good on paper. They boast about their green credentials with hybrid and fully electric vehicles, when I know for a fact that our hybrid vehicles are no more economical that standard diesels. I know that these vehicles require a lot more maintenance, have to have the battery packs and generators replaced every 5 years, and cost about 100k more than a standard diesel vehicle to buy initially. I also know that at an unnamed London bus garage inside the ulez that all their fully electric buses are charged at night by diesel generators as the council won't approve the infrastructure to have the charging equipment hooked up to the grid as it requires a new substation to be built. But at least on paper it looks good.

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6 minutes ago, Lsto said:

I actually work for a company that operates vehicles on behalf of transport for London. Luckily enough my garage is on the border of the zone so I don't have to get rid of my old 2006 diesel. The reason I have a dusty old diesel is because I have to commute from sunny Essex which is a round trip of about 75 miles a day, which obviously costs a fair bit on fuel every week. Also other than the fact I couldn't afford a new car even if I wanted one, I also couldn't justify having a new car and racking up the milage and wear and tear I do commuting. I start work at unsociable hours and again other than the fact that the trains and buses local to me don't run when I need them to, the cost of getting a train and about 4 buses would make it unviable to work where I do. If the zone came out any further I would have to seriously consider my options. If this proposed outer London charge comes in it would also be a genuine worry. I appreciate the intention of the ulez but I can't help but think it is another tax on the poor. It doesn't make sense to me that a more polluting petrol car can drive in the zone, but a cleaner diesel can't. It also boggles me that classic cars are exempt even though they are more polluting. A lot of what TFL does is just to look good on paper. They boast about their green credentials with hybrid and fully electric vehicles, when I know for a fact that our hybrid vehicles are no more economical that standard diesels. I know that these vehicles require a lot more maintenance, have to have the battery packs and generators replaced every 5 years, and cost about 100k more than a standard diesel vehicle to buy initially. I also know that at an unnamed London bus garage inside the ulez that all their fully electric buses are charged at night by diesel generators as the council won't approve the infrastructure to have the charging equipment hooked up to the grid as it requires a new substation to be built. But at least on paper it looks good.

Wow! 

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5 hours ago, Scully said:

Does it work like that though Henry, in reality? In my experience those who have a new vehicle to pay for generally increase the cost of the services they supply. I mean, they only have those in a similar boat to compete with , as those who can’t afford to change to a more ‘acceptable’ vehicle have gone bust. 
I’m assuming the clean air act isn’t cutting it anymore then, despite changing to smokeless fuel etc...

The clean air act is working, when did you last hear of one?

Now just try and work it round to the same idea regarding exhaust emissions, it's not hard, just because you have no central heating or double glazing doesn't mean that the rest of the world hasn't dragged themselves into and beyond the twentieth century.

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17 minutes ago, henry d said:

The clean air act is working, when did you last hear of one?

Now just try and work it round to the same idea regarding exhaust emissions, it's not hard, just because you have no central heating or double glazing doesn't mean that the rest of the world hasn't dragged themselves into and beyond the twentieth century.

Is it? As far as I’m aware London has failed to meet the EU’s air pollution stipulations for as long as they have existed. 
You’re right, it’s not hard to understand the point about exhaust emissions Henry, just as I understood the removal of lead from petrol ( unless you’ve got an classic of course ) but like I’ve already mentioned, let’s get on with the creation and manufacture of a totally new industry building whatever, specifically for the benefit of saving the planet. 👍

We don’t have central heating through choice Henry, ( I dislike plastic window frames and the building is listed anyhow ) but when you’re a specialist in insulation of Tradis and Passiv,  it’s surprising how little heating you need. 

I’ll leave it to someone else to keep paying those utilities by using that energy to heat the air outside their houses by placing their radiators directly under the windows, happy in the knowledge that that 100mm of rock wool in their loft is working well! Someone's got to keep the economy going! 🙂

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