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So I’ve got a terrible craving for a small gauge again. I’ve had a .410 before and used it well for rough shooting but think I’d get more out of a 28 bore as far as usability goes,(I keep stealing the old man’s 20 bore silver pigeon).

 
 
Can anyone recommend any particular makes or any pros and cons to the 28?
 
Makes wise in “new” I can see:
 
Yildiz - had my .410 in a yildiz. My local gunsmith thought it was very cheaply put together.
 
Kofs - know nothing about them?
 
Webley and Scott - know the name, not much else. Looks nice.
 
Lincoln - my mate had a new Lincoln 12 and had terrible problems with the firing pin and apparently it’s not that uncommon for them? So slightly reluctant.
 
Bettinsoli - good make? Top end of my price list for a novelty at about £900
 
Cogswell and Harrison - looks nice, again top end but doable. Around £950-£1000. Thought they just made old English guns?
 
 
Rizzini - didn’t realize how pricey they were. Probably only second hand with a silver pigeon in the same category.
 
 
Any feedback on the above makes or guns would be really appreciated. Looking for something a little nicer in maybe the £600-£950 at a push bracket but if I’m spending more I’d probably be best with the 20 bore?
 
 
Any help would be great! Cheers!
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You may find that a second lighter weight "sporting" or "light" 20 Bore using a lighter loaded cartridge is the less expensive route?

I for one can't see the logic for the shooting we mostly do in the UK for a 28 Bore that weighs as a gun nearly the same as a "sporting" or "light" 20 Bore gun  if it's then loaded with a 20 Bore equivalent shot load.

The argument for a "sporting" or "light" gun is that it is less weight to carry about which may make sense for walked up shooting and for the the then few chances a heavier cartridge in that gun may make sense. Except unless its recoil then disrupts a smooth second shot.

For decoying and driven shooting where the only walking is to and from your hide or peg I can't see the benefit of a 28 Bore that weighs nearly as much as would a "sporting" or "light" 20 Bore and is being used to fire a near 20 Bore equivalent load.

Other than a slight cachet or bragging rights there's no benefit and a lot of cost disbenefit. Walking up? Yes makes sense. Decoying pigeon or driven shooting? No.

 

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I have two friends with McNab Highlanders and for a man who dislikes o/u’s I think they are brilliant. Made be Rizzini, I believe the Lowlander is a different maker. The Webley and Scott is a Webley in name only and is Turkish made. A friend has one and I am unimpressed. I agree with Enfieldspares, shooting a 20 bore load from a 28 is as silly as all those who insist on putting a 12 bore load through a 20.

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34 minutes ago, enfieldspares said:

You may find that a second lighter weight "sporting" or "light" 20 Bore using a lighter loaded cartridge is the less expensive route?

I for one can't see the logic for the shooting we mostly do in the UK for a 28 Bore that weighs as a gun nearly the same as a "sporting" or "light" 20 Bore gun  if it's then loaded with a 20 Bore equivalent shot load.

The argument for a "sporting" or "light" gun is that it is less weight to carry about which may make sense for walked up shooting and for the the then few chances a heavier cartridge in that gun may make sense. Except unless its recoil then disrupts a smooth second shot.

For decoying and driven shooting where the only walking is to and from your hide or peg I can't see the benefit of a 28 Bore that weighs nearly as much as would a "sporting" or "light" 20 Bore and is being used to fire a near 20 Bore equivalent load.

Other than a slight cachet or bragging rights there's no benefit and a lot of cost disbenefit. Walking up? Yes makes sense. Decoying pigeon or driven shooting? No.

 

Spot on. :good:

If you want to stop nicking your dad's - although you could risk him nicking yours - rearrange the following into a well known phrase or saying - ES56.

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2 hours ago, London Best said:

I have two friends with McNab Highlanders and for a man who dislikes o/u’s I think they are brilliant. Made be Rizzini, I believe the Lowlander is a different maker. The Webley and Scott is a Webley in name only and is Turkish made. A friend has one and I am unimpressed. I agree with Enfieldspares, shooting a 20 bore load from a 28 is as silly as all those who insist on putting a 12 bore load through a 20.

I have shot side by sides for most of my shooting life (60+ years) and now use a 20 bore McNab highlander O/U for much of my shooting and love it. As said made by B.Rizzini, the better of the Rizzini clan. The Lowlanders were made by Sabatti.

Cannot praise Highlanders enough.

OB

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had ayildiz 28g for  a couple of years,nice little gun,but it weighs the same as my lanber 20g,at 5lb 12oz,so i sold it,i now use a fair jubilee 20g at 6lb 3oz,but it has 30 in barrels which suit me better,and a big choice of carts available.go 20g.

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Well as most of you know I am a 410 fan but I would think a 28 a joy to shoot.  I have had Yilditz o/u now for  maybe five seasons maybe more time flies but only at the end of last season did I put it in for service and a new set of springs  £90. That was after an avaerage of 20 plus days a season driven and a few pigeon/crow sorties. Not bad for a gun costing around £550. I now have two of the same model.  I would, if needed to, go for a Yilditz in 28 gauge but most of these Turkish made guns aremuch the same. Yilditz  went through a period where quality was not so good and I believe Kofs did the same.   In my view a 20 gauge is niether here nor there, but I am bias.

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I have 2 KOFs a .410 and a 12 bore.

Bought the .410 to replace a single barrel for rats and tree rats. Also use it occasionally for pigeon and crow if the opportunity arises.

Bought the 12 bore because I was so impressed with the .410, its now my wet day or field gun if I want something light but not in shot.

New they are advertised at around the £500 mark but you can barter then down to as low as £420 still new.

Apparently, according to YouTube the Yildiz gets a better review. Never compared them but have read such as the post above which praises them.

I wouldn't go down the 28 or 20 road when such good .410s are out there. 

I'm sure the KOFs 28 will be as good as the 410 & 12. They all come with 5 flush chokes and a choke key.

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6 hours ago, London Best said:

I have two friends with McNab Highlanders and for a man who dislikes o/u’s I think they are brilliant. Made be Rizzini, I believe the Lowlander is a different maker. The Webley and Scott is a Webley in name only and is Turkish made. A friend has one and I am unimpressed. I agree with Enfieldspares, shooting a 20 bore load from a 28 is as silly as all those who insist on putting a 12 bore load through a 20.

Absolutely spot on. Had one for a number of years in side plate and it is a really well put together, fast handling gun at around 6lb ish. I used it extensively on our woodland driven shoot where there was a lot of snap shooting. I can’t recommend these guns too highly for their price point. I also bought a Yildiz this summer with youth stock for my grandson. It came with a standard stock which swapped over was fine for me to try a few clays. It shot very well and I would have no hesitation in using it on game.

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I have the KOFS 28g. I bought it on a whim as wanted to try a 28g, think I paid £479 new. 

I only use it on clays using Fiochi 24g carts and now no longer bother with my 12g s as my scores are much better with the KOFS. 

I have put a few thousand carts through it and it's never missed a beat. 

Build quality is lovely on the outside  great wood and decent fit and finish. Inside parts are a little unfinished and obviously built down to a price. I am comparing to my Guerini or Beretta but it's a fraction of the price and as said it's been faultless reliability wise. 

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Cheers gents, certainly narrows some of the options down. Didn’t know webley was Turkish now.

 

As far as the 28 gauge goes it would be my woodcock / rough shooting gun. I essentially do no driven shooting at the moment.

 

It may well be more sensible to fork out a little more and get a nice gureini or silver pigeon in 20 bore that will be there forever, rather than a novelty gun. Still undecided!

 

 

Appreciate the feedback. I loved using a .410 and figured the 28 would be similar with a bit more practical abilities. 28 grams out of a 20 bore doesn’t leave you any shorter than a 12 in my book.

Edited by wildfowler.250
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On 20/11/2021 at 11:14, wildfowler.250 said:

So I’ve got a terrible craving for a small gauge again. I’ve had a .410 before and used it well for rough shooting but think I’d get more out of a 28 bore as far as usability goes,(I keep stealing the old man’s 20 bore silver pigeon).

 
 
Can anyone recommend any particular makes or any pros and cons to the 28?
 
Makes wise in “new” I can see:
 
Yildiz - had my .410 in a yildiz. My local gunsmith thought it was very cheaply put together.
 
Kofs - know nothing about them?
 
Webley and Scott - know the name, not much else. Looks nice.
 
Lincoln - my mate had a new Lincoln 12 and had terrible problems with the firing pin and apparently it’s not that uncommon for them? So slightly reluctant.
 
Bettinsoli - good make? Top end of my price list for a novelty at about £900
 
Cogswell and Harrison - looks nice, again top end but doable. Around £950-£1000. Thought they just made old English guns?
 
 
Rizzini - didn’t realize how pricey they were. Probably only second hand with a silver pigeon in the same category.
 
 
Any feedback on the above makes or guns would be really appreciated. Looking for something a little nicer in maybe the £600-£950 at a push bracket but if I’m spending more I’d probably be best with the 20 bore?
 
 
Any help would be great! Cheers!

Just get one. I went through the ‘should I or shouldn’t I’ stage……for too long. I asked the good folks on PW their opinions re Kofs or Yildiz and had a lot of helpful opinions. I recently took the plunge - opting for a Yildiz 28 with 30” barrels. The great thing about these Turkish guns, is that they allow a ‘try out’ for very little money. If whatever gauge doesn’t work out, they are very easy to sell and you won’t loose much.

When I picked it up from the shooting ground, I went out on the clays with a mixture of 18 and 25 gram cart’s. The 18 gram (7s) broke clays no trouble, even the high tower 40 yarders. The recoil was negligible with the 18 grams but the 25 grams…..!!! Very sharp recoil through this 6lb 3oz gun. Later, just for an experiment, I put 8oz of lead in the stock bolt hole, thinking it was probably a little extreme. However, recoil became smooth with the 25 grammers. 23 grams seems to be just right. The extra stock weight also balanced the gun nicely. It was balancing a good inch or more in to the forend wood without the extra weight. Now just about bang on the hinge pin and really responsive handling. These aluminium actioned Turkish guns are quite barrel heavy straight off the rack, especially with the longer barrels. Just personal preference, but I find this to be a little awkward in the handling. 

There is a lot of questioning by some - as to why you wouldn’t just get a 20 bore. My answer is that the 28 is fun….and why not? On a more practical level, it is true what they say about the patterns, they are much better than they have any right to be.
7CAD4896-2415-482B-BC05-39EEE32F6651.jpeg.a27578210385ee450732f06d820ddc86.jpeg

Above is a 28” x 32” board showing a 32 yard pattern from a Hull High Pheasant 25 gram size 6, 1/4 choke (please ignore the scribbled number - it’s not mine). I did a quick count calculation: a 74% pattern. 
289817EC-E8D9-4427-9CFB-6AAFE1D7D56E.jpeg.c34ceaa46596fba1fc80202aa751443a.jpeg

This one is from a 23gram, size 6, same distance/choke, a 72% pattern. What impresses me about the patterns is that they are beautifully even. Not blotchy and no tight core. 

I have yet to pattern the tighter chokes, but remain confident re longer (although not ridiculous) ranges. 

I went for a walk about afterwards and found a crow flight line. I would estimate the highest one I shot to be over 35 yards, instantly dead in the air. My real intention for this gun however is walked up shooting - a nice all day carry and good patterns. I suppose the main downside with 28s is that clay cart’s are the price of game cart’s, but hey, you have to spend it on something. Hope my ramble helps. 

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Bought myself a new silver pigeon 28 bore at the start of the summer and used it a lot on pigeons since…..to say I’m impressed is an understatement! 
Cracking little calibre, yes you could just buy a 20 bore but to be honest with the 23g 6 bill high pheasant I’ve been using it’s so hard hitting out to 40 yards I can’t see any disadvantage if you just fancy one like I did. 
As said above the patterns are brilliant, hence they kill really well. 
I’ve used a 20 bore a lot too over the last 20 years but it’s my Dads and I wanted something light for walking round mainly and using over standing crops etc when I don’t want to be shooting birds at stupid ranges and it’s proved better than I expected! 
The Beretta is a scaled down 20 bore action so very slimline and nice to handle, though I believe a lot of the cheaper males are just 20 bore actions with the 28 bore barrels so not quite as slim etc. 
I’d like to try it on sensible range driven pheasants with the same cartridges to see how it performed. 

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Used a Yildiz 28B SPZME  ‘special lux’’ yesterday on Cumbrian driven pheasants and it was a joy to use.. 30” m/c barrels which are well struck off.. Plus a ‘hand engraved’, aircraft grade aluminium alloy action supporting steel furniture plus superb wood. What’s not to like about this combination and half the price of a grade five Miroku or Japanese Browning..

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53 minutes ago, Salmo9 said:

Used a Yildiz 28B SPZME  ‘special lux’’ yesterday on Cumbrian driven pheasants and it was a joy to use.. 30” m/c barrels which are well struck off.. Plus a ‘hand engraved’, aircraft grade aluminium alloy action supporting steel furniture plus superb wood. What’s not to like about this combination and half the price of a grade five Miroku or Japanese Browning..

Hi Salmo9,

May I ask - what cartridges were you having success with?

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4 minutes ago, London Best said:

A twelve bore load in a twenty eight bore.

Actually a true 16 bore load which would shoot very well and comfortably out of a 6lb gun (preferably a side-by-side...).

Can't understand this odd fascination for buying overweight small-bores and then blasting magnum-style loads out of them.

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Just now, aldivalloch said:

Actually a true 16 bore load which would shoot very well and comfortably out of a 6lb gun (preferably a side-by-side...).

Can't understand this odd fascination for buying overweight small-bores and then blasting magnum-style loads out of them.

Correct. I only ever use 28 grams through my 6lb 2oz twelve as it is really a sixteen bore weight.

The small bore magnumitis disease is just willy waving.......”but I’m only using a (insert small bore of choice here)”  It is charges of shot which kill game, not the diameter of bore.

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16 minutes ago, London Best said:

Correct. I only ever use 28 grams through my 6lb 2oz twelve as it is really a sixteen bore weight.

The small bore magnumitis disease is just willy waving.......”but I’m only using a (insert small bore of choice here)”  It is charges of shot which kill game, not the diameter of bore.

This sums it all up beautifully.

I still have somewhere in the house an American publication from the 1970s which carried some discussion on the emerging use of heavily-loaded small-bores on wildfowl. Referring specifically to the 3" 0.410, a distinguished shooter of the era described its use as smacking of "cynicism" and "trick shooting".

I'm off to my shelter now.

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1 hour ago, aldivalloch said:

This sums it all up beautifully.

I still have somewhere in the house an American publication from the 1970s which carried some discussion on the emerging use of heavily-loaded small-bores on wildfowl. Referring specifically to the 3" 0.410, a distinguished shooter of the era described its use as smacking of "cynicism" and "trick shooting".

I'm off to my shelter now.

 

The 410 will drop small, medium and even geese to 35\40 yards when using the appropriate ammunition. The problem is that people use the wrong ammunition and chokes for the quarry leading to an often dismissive attitude by those who have tried it and found it wanting, when it is not the fault of the equipment but the user for failing to understand how best to use the 410.

 

 

Edited by Stonepark
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