How to get a better pattern with a fixed choke gun?

[flippermaj]

I have an AYA Yeoman side by side, chambered at 70 mm.   I like to use it for the geese so currently use eley eco steel 32 gram no 3.   Through the full choke barrel at 40 yards I get e very respectable 90 pellets in a 30 inch circle.

However the previous owner had the choke taken out on the other barrel to something very open as I only get a dismal 35 pellets in the 30 inch circle at 40 yards with this barrel. It does kill geese but I would like to get a better pattern out of it.

So here is the question, if I were to homeload a 32grm no 3 steel load could I just not split the wad so much to improve the pattern to compensate for the lack of choke?  I appreciate it would take a bit of fine tuning to work out how far down to split the wad but in principle will I get a significant increase in pellet count in the 30 inch circle?

Also, does anyone know if by just using a factory cart with a plastic wad as opposed to eleys eco wad I would get an improved pattern or is eleys eco wad as good as a plastic wad when it comes to pattern density?

 

cheers

flipper

[wymberley]

Assuming that:

1. You like the gun

2. You don't need the open choke as tight as the full choke

3. You like your current cartridge

4. You don't currently reload and consequently have no kit 

Instead of spending money on reloading kit you could see if you can find someone who can/will do you a  recess choke. Careful though as the improvement is not always as much as you'd possibly like. Alternatively, have that nice Mr Teague install on a permanent basis (or multi if you prefer) a choke of your choice in the one barrel. Or if you don't require the range that the choked barrel gives, you could just use 4s.

Edited November 20, 2021 by wymberley

[dipper]

I’ve not loaded steel shot.But I’ve loaded lead with steel wads .And by  fine tuning I can get very tight patterns with 1/2 choke.I use LBC wads just use 2 slits about 1/2 way down.Never tried it in a open barrel .I had a barrel jug choked and would only work with fiber wads.

 

[flippermaj]

Wymberley,  I didn’t know you could “put choke” back into a barrel once it has been removed!  I have now googled the recess/jug choke thing and am enlightened.

Teagues may be a tad expensive for my £150 gun😊

I shall try some gamebore plastic wad 32 gram no 4 to see how they pattern and then if there is still no improvement I guess it will be some experimental reloading, I should be able to beg borrow and steal a few bits for testing as I don’t currently home load.

thanks to all for the advice.

[Stonepark]

Flipper,

I would expect over 106 pellets with cyl choke at 40 yards with Eley 32g No3 steel in a 30 inch circle.

With full choke, I would be looking for over 155 pellet in the cartridge to be in the 30 inch circle.

 

I would suggest aking apart one of you unfired 32g no3 cartridges and counting the pellets (to confirm sizing) and which will allow you to estimate the percentages in the 30 inch circle. At 40 yards I would be looking for 75% (full choke) down to 50% (Cylinder choke) bearing in mind steel prints 5-10% tighter than lead at the same distance.

If the figures are as off as suggested by your results (assuming 32g of No3 steel has about 195-200 pellets, I would suggest putting Gamebore Black Gold no7.5 28g fibre into a couple of 30 inch circles at 40 yards to determine what the chokes throw ( the high antimony and consistancy give a good baseline.) in lead to see if the results are the same across the board.

If the results are duplicated, i would be looking for a new gun.

Edited November 20, 2021 by Stonepark

[flippermaj]

Stonepark,   I was using the link below and arriving at 178 pellets in a 32 gram load of no 3 steel.

I will cut one open tomorrow and do a count!

http://shotshell.drundel.com/pelletcount.htm

[London Best]

8 hours ago, flippermaj said:

Stonepark,   I was using the link below and arriving at 178 pellets in a 32 gram load of no 3 steel.

I will cut one open tomorrow and do a count!

http://shotshell.drundel.com/pelletcount.htm

The lead sizes quoted in the chart are US sizes. UK sizes have more per ounce/gram. Not sure about the steel.

[wymberley]

15 hours ago, dipper said:

I’ve not loaded steel shot.But I’ve loaded lead with steel wads .And by  fine tuning I can get very tight patterns with 1/2 choke.I use LBC wads just use 2 slits about 1/2 way down.Never tried it in a open barrel .I had a barrel jug choked and would only work with fiber wads.

 

Good point re the steel/recess owing to the wad.

[flippermaj]

I cut one open and it had a count of 163 pellets which isn’t the 178 it should be?
 

[Minky]

19 hours ago, flippermaj said:

   Through the full choke barrel at 40 yards I get e very respectable 90 pellets in a 30 inch circle.

However the previous owner had the choke taken out on the other barrel to something very open as I only get a dismal 35 pellets in the 30 inch circle at 40 yards with this barrel. It does kill geese but I would like to get a better pattern out of it.

Quote " It does kill geese but I would like to get a better pattern out of it."

If it kills geese why bother.?  Three options... 1. Just go for it and get kitted up to reload.  Although the cost may outweigh a replacement gun.

2. get a different gun.  Wabittbosher on here has very reasonable replacements. 

3. Just get oñ with it with what you've got.  Or  consider it as a single barrel with a backup barrel.  Have a cartridge in your mouth and reload quicker like the old boys did with single barrels. How many geese do you want or need to shoot.?

 

[wymberley]

2 hours ago, flippermaj said:

I cut one open and it had a count of 163 pellets which isn’t the 178 it should be?
 

Welcome to the 'Pellets Per Ounce' labelling club.

The reasons for what you're experiencing are legion. However, it has to be asked in order to be discarded, how many shots at the pattern plate gave rise to the 90 and 35 pellet counts?

[Stonepark]

163 pellets in 32g suggests a 2.5, or  145 pellets/oz, not far of a lead No3 (140 pellets per oz).

So with these cartridges and your gun you are getting: -

90 pellets in 30 inch circle is 55% pattern -  Cyl choke equivalent.

35 pellets in 30 inch circle is 21.5% pattern - No use to anyone.

 

Now this may be a bad cartridge for the 35 pellets, hence reason with test with a good high antimony clay cartridge to confirm or

the choke may be boogered by being overly removed or

the gun may not be shooting both barrels to same point of aim and your not recording the centre of the pattern on the 35 pellet barrel due to uncentred choke removal.

Both the latter faults can be down to DIY removal of choke.

 

 

[London Best]

Even a true cylinder should produce 40% at 40 yards.

[Old farrier]

2 minutes ago, London Best said:

Even a true cylinder should produce 40% at 40 yards.

With lead ? 
steel shot is a different thing entirely especially when you add in fibre shot cups or the newly developed eco wads 

[London Best]

5 minutes ago, Old farrier said:

With lead ? 
steel shot is a different thing entirely especially when you add in fibre shot cups or the newly developed eco wads 

Yes, with lead. I know steel should pattern tighter.

[wymberley]

You can be reasonably confident that any 'TC' barrel throwing 40% (with lead) at the 40 yards will actually have a couple of thou choke.

[8 shot]

This is through Teague 1/2 choke.

Eley VIP Steel EcoWad 32g #3

35y/30m

Total pellets in the circle 48, 13 on the pheasant it would have killed it ! 

Got some lead comparisons but on cardboard not that easy to see. Did some 40, 45, 50, and 60y shots but much after 40yrds where rubbish.

Edited November 21, 2021 by 8 shot

[Stonepark]

29 minutes ago, 8 shot said:

This is through Teague 1/2 choke.

Eley VIP Steel EcoWad 32g #3

35y/30m

Total pellets in the circle 48, 13 on the pheasant it would have killed it ! 

Got some lead comparisons but on cardboard but not that easy to see. Did some 40, 45, 50, and 60y shots but much after 40yrds where rubbish.

If you flip the image of the pheasant left to right, keeping the impacts as is, the pheasant would have flown on and likely died some hours later........ as there would have been no hits to any vital areas or bones to drop it immediately.

With a pattern as poor as this, 50% of the birds would be injured and flown on or runners, needing picked by dogs.... most of the pellets hitting this bird hit feathers or flesh wounds, only the chance grouping of three in chest, two in head and one in RHS wing bone would have brought it down, all the other pellets are ineffective.

Additionally, if you are off by 12 inches in any direction, the bird is only getting hit by one pellet or two at best, so you would have to be laser accurate to even get the result above, so could add another 25% of pricked birds, giving a total of 75% of non-lethal hits.

Tom Roster's CONSEP tests reccommends a minimum of 90-95 large pellets in a 30 inch circle to bring down a pheasant, which is below the tradition English number of 120 pellets of smaller shot, relying more on pattern to kill, whihc even then is comfortably exceeded by the so called traditional loading of 32g No6 which has 215 pellets at 30m in the 30 inch circle.

I am assuming it is the cartridges (more particulary the Ecowad) rather than the teague choke which are poor as at half choke you should be getting 130 to 140 pellets in the pattern at 30m.

 

 

[flippermaj]

My pattern testing is rough and ready to get a feel for the pattern and is certainly not rigorous or scientific as it was just one shot with each barrel.

I will fire a couple more with the open barrel when I get a chance to see if the result is any different.

8shots pattern is interesting, surely in theory with a half choke he should have got way more than 48 pellets in the circle out of the 160 or so in the load.  What’s going on here???

yes the gun kills geese and indeed how many do I need to shoot each season, I could go plastic semi auto 3.5 chamber and drop a heap more but I enjoy the challenge of getting under them when they are low enough for a 32grm load and shooting with a gun that is a joy to hold and swing.  When it comes together it’s great, 12 foreshore pinks last week but a blank week prior to that.  A better pattern in the first barrel would give I believe more consistent dead in the air kills which is what I need as any bird that planes off is always a challenge to pick.

 

[8 shot]

3 minutes ago, Stonepark said:

If you flip the image of the pheasant left to right, keeping the impacts as is, the pheasant would have flown on and likely died some hours later........ as there would have been no hits to any vital areas or bones to drop it immediately.

With a pattern as poor as this, 50% of the birds would be injured and flown on or runners, needing picked by dogs.... most of the pellets hitting this bird hit feathers or flesh wounds, only the chance grouping of three in chest, two in head and one in RHS wing bone would have brought it down, all the other pellets are ineffective.

Additionally, if you are off by 12 inches in any direction, the bird is only getting hit by one pellet or two at best, so you would have to be laser accurate to even get the result above, so could add another 25% of pricked birds, giving a total of 75% of non-lethal hits.

Tom Roster's CONSEP tests reccommends a minimum of 90-95 large pellets in a 30 inch circle to bring down a pheasant, which is below the tradition English number of 120 pellets of smaller shot, relying more on pattern to kill, whihc even then is comfortably exceeded by the so called traditional loading of 32g No6 which has 215 pellets at 30m in the 30 inch circle.

I am assuming it is the cartridges (more particulary the Ecowad) rather than the teague choke which are poor as at half choke you should be getting 130 to 140 pellets in the pattern at 30m.

 

 

You won't get any argument from me, i'll try and get the rest of the patterning i did so it's readable or write down the results. I think steel spells the beginning of the end for some shoots with birds more than 30yrds in distance. It's a game changer for all the wrong reasons. I assume 20 bore and small will be next to useless

[8 shot]

8 minutes ago, flippermaj said:

8shots pattern is interesting, surely in theory with a half choke he should have got way more than 48 pellets in the circle out of the 160 or so in the load.  What’s going on here???

I did a lead Eley Pigeon HV 32g #6 comparison,' as the steel failed quite quickly after 35/40yrds with only a few pellets on a m'sq piece of cardat 50/55yrds, the lead pattern at 50/55yrds was equal to the one shown previously for steel

[London Best]

2 minutes ago, 8 shot said:

I did a lead Eley Pigeon HV 32g #6 comparison,' as the steel failed quite quickly after 35/40yrds with only a few pellets on a m'sq piece of cardat 50/55yrds, the lead pattern at 50/55yrds was equal to the one shown previously for steel

This is because a shotgun is a short range gun, good for about forty yards, as has been recognised by sportsmen for about a hundred and twenty years.

[Old farrier]

Two pattern’s in the air same distance one is 27 grams of 7.1/2 lead fibre wad others 27 grams of non lead 5 shot eco wad 

to the OP the eco wad isn’t split very much with 4 slits 

 

Edited November 21, 2021 by Old farrier

[8 shot]

But what about follow up shots on pricked birds.At least with lead you do have some margin of error.

[Scully]

10 hours ago, Stonepark said:

If you flip the image of the pheasant left to right, keeping the impacts as is, the pheasant would have flown on and likely died some hours later........ as there would have been no hits to any vital areas or bones to drop it immediately.

With a pattern as poor as this, 50% of the birds would be injured and flown on or runners, needing picked by dogs.... most of the pellets hitting this bird hit feathers or flesh wounds, only the chance grouping of three in chest, two in head and one in RHS wing bone would have brought it down, all the other pellets are ineffective.

Additionally, if you are off by 12 inches in any direction, the bird is only getting hit by one pellet or two at best, so you would have to be laser accurate to even get the result above, so could add another 25% of pricked birds, giving a total of 75% of non-lethal hits.

Tom Roster's CONSEP tests reccommends a minimum of 90-95 large pellets in a 30 inch circle to bring down a pheasant, which is below the tradition English number of 120 pellets of smaller shot, relying more on pattern to kill, whihc even then is comfortably exceeded by the so called traditional loading of 32g No6 which has 215 pellets at 30m in the 30 inch circle.

I am assuming it is the cartridges (more particulary the Ecowad) rather than the teague choke which are poor as at half choke you should be getting 130 to 140 pellets in the pattern at 30m.

 

 

Those darned variables! 🙂