Policing in retail

[ordnance]

Its probably a cunning plan by the government to control the population  One thing the pandemic has shown me is the vast number of immunologists, virologists, communicable diseases experts we have in the UK who share their knowledge on internet forums 

[Newbie to this]

10 hours ago, Vince Green said:

London Underground where it has always been the law that you wear masks.

No it hasn't, TFL cannot make laws.

It was a condition of travel, enforceable with a penalty charge.

[Bigbob]

I go to three different town centres every week to pick up scraps from the butchers and there's more a swing to Not wearing masks now each to there own  but if you choose Not to wear a mask or be jagged up i think you should forego  your right to medical help if you get covid , Why burden a already stretched NHS because you cant obey the law ?. Im really surprised the police havent jumped on a way to make easy money in fines as well  

[Vince Green]

2 hours ago, Newbie to this said:

No it hasn't, TFL cannot make laws.

It was a condition of travel, enforceable with a penalty charge.

The law on mask wearing was from the Governments Emergency powers Covid Act 2020 and was never relaxed for any public transport anywhere in the country when mask wearing was made optional on "Freedom Friday" April this year.

But the various railway acts do give TFL the power to make by laws which would be enforcable in court. Fare evasion being the one that springs to mind.

[Newbie to this]

6 hours ago, Vince Green said:

The law on mask wearing was from the Governments Emergency powers Covid Act 2020 and was never relaxed for any public transport anywhere in the country when mask wearing was made optional on "Freedom Friday" April this year.

But the various railway acts do give TFL the power to make by laws which would be enforcable in court. Fare evasion being the one that springs to mind.

If you say so....

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.standard.co.uk/news/transport/mask-wearing-london-underground-tube-tfl-andy-byford-b961944.html%3famp

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-58734287

https://www.newsshopper.co.uk/news/19494361.tfl-mayor-khan-wants-mask-wearing-enforced-law/

[udderlyoffroad]

14 hours ago, bluesj said:

I think some people are being intensionally thick about mask wearing and how they work.  

What blows my mind, is that otherwise intelligent people cannot even acknowledge that there are downsides and issues that come with wearing masks.  A cost/benefit analysis is easy to do if you don't consider the costs and massively inflate the benefits.

13 hours ago, Bigbob said:

Not wearing masks now each to there own

The correct answer, IMHO.

13 hours ago, Bigbob said:

but if you choose Not to wear a mask or be jagged up i think you should forego  your right to medical help if you get covid

If there was ever a textbook definition of the slippery slope argument, you've just made it.  Drink more than 4 units of alcohol/week?  No treatment for you, you're not temperate.  BMI over 25?  No treatment for you, you're obese.  >2 kids?  No maternity or neonatal care for you, you've had more than your quota.  Straight white male?  You're just the worst, no treatment for you.

Also, wearing a mask is to protect others, right?  Why would I get sick if I fail to wear a mask?

 

13 hours ago, Bigbob said:

Why burden a already stretched NHS because you cant obey the law ?

Not overstretched, failure to plan.  £1billion pounds every 60hrs!  And not treating cancer patients.  And there's an important difference between can't and won't.

Edited December 2, 2021 by udderlyoffroad

[ordnance]

Quote

What blows my mind, is that otherwise intelligent people cannot even acknowledge that there are downsides and issues that come with wearing masks.  A cost/benefit analysis is easy to do if you don't consider the costs and massively inflate the benefits.

Do you have a cost/benefit analysis you can post, you post your views like their are facts. 

Edited December 2, 2021 by ordnance

[udderlyoffroad]

On 02/12/2021 at 21:22, ordnance said:

Do you have a cost/benefit analysis you can post, you post your views like their are facts. 

Where do we even begin.   (Real) journalists have been asking the government for cost-benefits on lockdowns since the first one.  Crickets.

Orrr, more back on topic, how about you find a study on the efficacy of mask wearing by the general public?  I'll give you a clue, what data there is, is inconclusive at best, against mask wearing at worst.  Clinical environments, absolutely, by trained professionals, using disposable PPE properly.  General joe schmoe public, using @Scully's example of the oldest piece of cloth he can find, not so much.

And there is plenty of pedagogical research saying it adversely children's development, and hard data showing that they aren't an at risk group.  That being the case, will you at least concede that making kids wear masks in schools is damaging and pointless?

And I still am struggling to see, given that the smallest bits of 'spittle' that COVID can exist on, is 4.7 um, what the point of wearing a 20 um mesh mask is???  Can you point to *any* explanation for that?

Anyway, here's some quiack on TV, apparently held in high regard, before he about-faced and went all pro-mask.  Apologies for the 'pirate copy', unsurprisingly the original is no longer on Youtube.

 

[discobob]

1 hour ago, udderlyoffroad said:

pedagogical

is that a typo or is it a "word of the day" for Pigeon Watch 😁

Regarding Dr H -luckily there are still skid marks from the about turn - I remember that clearly. Last year - went to England for something - wife asked me to grab something - went to tesco and then left - I had no mask with me as Wales were no masks at that time.....

[Jim Neal]

36 minutes ago, discobob said:

pedagogical

https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-d&q=pedagogical

[ordnance]

Quote

Anyway, here's some quiack on TV, apparently held in high regard, before he about-faced and went all pro-mask.  Apologies for the 'pirate copy', unsurprisingly the original is no longer on Youtube.

The evidence that wearing masks is effective has moved on so has Dr Hilary, unlike some. Its the usual story 1000 doctors say one thing and some will believe the one that says different and ignore the thousand.  

Quote. Meanwhile, a preprint tested the effectiveness of different face masks and compared this with the perceptions of protection among 710 US residents.11 A TSI 8038+machine was used to test N95, surgical, and two fabric face masks on an individual 25 times each. The researchers reported that fabric face masks “blocked between 62.6% and 87.1% of fine particles, whereas surgical masks protected against an average of 78.2% of fine particles. N95 masks blocked 99.6% of fine particles.” But they said that survey respondents tended to “underestimate the effectiveness of masks, especially fabric masks.” The results indicated that “fabric masks may be a useful tool in the battle against the covid-19 pandemic and that increasing public awareness of the effectiveness of fabric masks may help in this endeavour,” the authors concluded.

Edited December 6, 2021 by ordnance
edit

[39TDS]

41 minutes ago, ordnance said:

The results indicated that “fabric masks may be a useful tool in the battle against the covid-19 pandemic and that increasing public awareness of the effectiveness of fabric masks may help in this endeavour,” the authors concluded.

When the conclusion is "may", it is not really a conclusion is it. 

[ordnance]

36 minutes ago, 39TDS said:

When the conclusion is "may", it is not really a conclusion is it. 

That's one type of masks read the rest, another example of picking out one factor and ignoring the rest. 

[Jim Neal]

How big were the "fine particles" ?

[39TDS]

56 minutes ago, ordnance said:

That's one type of masks read the rest, another example of picking out one factor and ignoring the rest. 

I did read it all and hadn't ignored any of it, I was commenting on the part I quoted.

Yet more proof of someone ignoring the fact I hadn't quoted the whole article so wasn't commenting on the whole article.

[ordnance]

34 minutes ago, Jim Neal said:

How big were the "fine particles" ?

Quote. 

What are fine particles?

The term fine particles, or particulate matter 2.5 (PM_2.5), refers to tiny particles or droplets in the air that are two and one half microns or less in width. 

[Scully]

So a snood or pulled up T-shirt is fine then. 

[udderlyoffroad]

19 hours ago, discobob said:

is that a typo or is it a "word of the day" for Pigeon Watch 😁

It's a perfectly cromulent word, as per the @Jim Neal's linky.  Glad we were able to embiggen your vocabulary 😉

13 hours ago, ordnance said:

The evidence that wearing masks is effective has moved on so has Dr Hilary, unlike some.

I am perfectly happy to change my mind based on sound research.  But I will also, unashamadly, relentlessly question the government advice or diktats, especially when 'following the science' is touted as the one true path in a quasi-religious fashion.  And especially when our liberties are affected.

As for the TV quack, I don't follow his utterings, it is just a famous example.  More to the point, it is a relevant example, precisely because the advice was such a complete about-face, literally over night.  That's not 'moving on'.

I have previously raised the whole about-turn on masks with you and others on this forum, and how it seems strange that 'could do more harm than good' for the vulnerable/immuno compromised, suddenly, over night, ceased to be an issue.  No official explanation was forthcoming.

Do you have an opinion on the following?

21 hours ago, udderlyoffroad said:

And there is plenty of pedagogical research saying it adversely affects children's development, and hard data showing that they aren't an at risk group.  That being the case, will you at least concede that making kids wear masks in schools is damaging and pointless?

Or must children too be sacrificed at the alter of "not being selfish"?

2 hours ago, Scully said:

So a snood or pulled up T-shirt is fine then.

Legally, yes...As for actual efficacy...

 

[discobob]

Just now, udderlyoffroad said:

cromulent

 

Just now, udderlyoffroad said:

embiggen

😆

[Scully]

6 minutes ago, udderlyoffroad said:

 

Legally, yes...As for actual efficacy...

 

My point exactly. If masks did the job, then we wouldn’t be able to make do with any old snot sodden rag. 

[Bigbob]

It doesn't matter if the particles can get threw a mask or not  more and more folk are choosing not to wear them . We went shopping to Fort Kinnard retail park  A big shopping retail park in Edinburgh on Sunday and about 40% of folk have gave up wearing masks . We went to pizza hut for lunch and the managers at the door seating you and the amount of folk that came in with no mask and she was in a ideal position to ask put a mask on but no she just sat them down .The only guy i saw stopping folk was in a charity shop he coughed and said excuse me you seem to have forgotten your mask most folk apologised and put a mask on  

Weather they work or not we are getting more and more variations  and a mask might slow down the spread  

[Gu5]

18 hours ago, ordnance said:

The researchers reported that fabric face masks “blocked between 62.6% and 87.1% of fine particles, whereas surgical masks protected against an average of 78.2% of fine particles.

This isn’t a like for like comparison. 24 out of the 25 tests for fabric could have stopped 87.1% with a single outlier at 62.6%. The spread of the surgical masks has not been given, this could be a lot lower and a lot higher than that of the fabric mask - a totally useless comparison really. 

[udderlyoffroad]

So vax passports are back on the agenda for England, despite the government's own research showing they don't work - All because No 10 got caught, again, thinking their own crazy rules don't apply to themselves.  For a variant whose body count is still, er, 0.

When will people say enough is enough?

As for all those saying 'wear a mask, it's not hard' - I went food shopping the other day.  A more miserable bunch of dejected people I have rarely seen, as I have people shuffling around Aldi, muzzled up like some kind of lepers.  Why is it so beneficial for the government to throw everyone's mental health under the bus like this?  Qui bono?

 

[ordnance]

1 hour ago, udderlyoffroad said:

So vax passports are back on the agenda for England, despite the government's own research showing they don't work - All because No 10 got caught, again, thinking their own crazy rules don't apply to themselves.  For a variant whose body count is still, er, 0.

When will people say enough is enough?

As for all those saying 'wear a mask, it's not hard' - I went food shopping the other day.  A more miserable bunch of dejected people I have rarely seen, as I have people shuffling around Aldi, muzzled up like some kind of lepers.  Why is it so beneficial for the government to throw everyone's mental health under the bus like this?  Qui bono?

 

A persons mental health would be very precarious if wearing a mask or seeing people wearing a mask has them having a mental breakdown, did it effect your mental health.   PS A mask is not a muzzle do you know the difference are doctors etc wearing a muzzle   I know ant maskers like to use that emotive term.

Edited December 9, 2021 by ordnance

[ordnance]

Quote

So vax passports are back on the agenda for England, despite the government's own research showing they don't work

14 minutes ago, ordnance said:

 

I missed that, what report ?

Edited December 9, 2021 by ordnance