did i miss Posted December 15, 2021 Report Share Posted December 15, 2021 (edited) Hi all Beretta 686 eell after all the talk about steel shot thort will just take a look And now I'm lost Guns dated bz = 85 Kg 1400 18.4cam 67 But I can't find a cip stamp Any info please Thanks Edited December 15, 2021 by did i miss Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scully Posted December 15, 2021 Report Share Posted December 15, 2021 1985? It won’t be steel proofed ( if that’s what you’re asking ) unless the work was done by a previous owner. If it’s in proof for nitro then it will be fine with steel shot. If in doubt send it for steel shot proofing, and thereby proving there was no need. 👍 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
did i miss Posted December 15, 2021 Author Report Share Posted December 15, 2021 Now then scully Do you mean no steel at all or OK for standard steel thanks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scully Posted December 15, 2021 Report Share Posted December 15, 2021 I doubt it will have been proofed for steel at all, but if it’s in proof for nitro, it will be fine for both standard and HP in my opinion. I would certainly have no qualms about putting steel through it. Like I said, if in doubt send it for steel shot proofing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dougy Posted December 15, 2021 Report Share Posted December 15, 2021 https://www.gmk.co.uk/gmk-advice-on-steel-shot/news/85 Have a gander Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
did i miss Posted December 15, 2021 Author Report Share Posted December 15, 2021 Hi Thanks Scully how do I no its in proof for nitro Starting to wish I hadn't read the posts last night until now never give it a thort Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wymberley Posted December 15, 2021 Report Share Posted December 15, 2021 (edited) It may be worth bearing in mind that KG 1400 could well be the weight of the barrels. Could the “67” be 76 by any chance? Edited December 16, 2021 by wymberley Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tonka54 Posted December 15, 2021 Report Share Posted December 15, 2021 The nitro proof mark should be on the barrels somewhere. Most proof marks can be found here : http://www.nramuseum.org/media/940944/proofmarks.pdf Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scully Posted December 16, 2021 Report Share Posted December 16, 2021 9 hours ago, did i miss said: Hi Thanks Scully how do I no its in proof for nitro Starting to wish I hadn't read the posts last night until now never give it a thort Your gun will have been proofed for nitro; all guns entering the UK are nitro proved, unless they’ve been smuggled in and are being held illegally. You can easily find relevant nitro proof marks online. What I meant was that unless the barrels are worn thin, ( they won’t be ) or the gun has been neglected to the point there is rust or pitting inside the barrels, it may not still be in proof. Like I’ve said, if it will put your mind at rest, send it for steel shot proofing. There are guns as old as yours, and older, being submitted for steel shot proofing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thebigH91 Posted December 16, 2021 Report Share Posted December 16, 2021 just to add my two pen'orth on things but as far as i know BZ is an Italian date for 2005 not 1985, what i have 1985 would be AN Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tonka54 Posted December 16, 2021 Report Share Posted December 16, 2021 Don't shoot the messenger, but I have obviously made enquiries about steel for my own guns, Opinions vary, greatly, but the general consensus of opinion by RFD's that I have spoken to is. Most of the older guns will not cope with H.P. steel unless they have been re-proofed. However, with the correct choking, they will be able to cope with standard steel shot. It is also a fact that fixed choke guns may eventually be able to use standard steel if choked no tighter than a 1/2 so as to avoid any possibility of "ring bulge". There is a school of thought that fibre wadding "cups" will prevent any subsequent damage to the internal barrel surfaces, due to the fact that the steel shot will remain in this fibre cup till it has left the barrel. But as I say, rumour and speculation is rife at the moment, so I think it's a case of watch this space. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wymberley Posted December 16, 2021 Report Share Posted December 16, 2021 29 minutes ago, Tonka54 said: rumour and speculation is rife at the moment, Certainly is. This may be worth a shufti: INFORMATION SHEET (basc.org.uk) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scully Posted December 16, 2021 Report Share Posted December 16, 2021 (edited) 34 minutes ago, Tonka54 said: Don't shoot the messenger, but I have obviously made enquiries about steel for my own guns, Opinions vary, greatly, but the general consensus of opinion by RFD's that I have spoken to is. Most of the older guns will not cope with H.P. steel unless they have been re-proofed. However, with the correct choking, they will be able to cope with standard steel shot. It is also a fact that fixed choke guns may eventually be able to use standard steel if choked no tighter than a 1/2 so as to avoid any possibility of "ring bulge". There is a school of thought that fibre wadding "cups" will prevent any subsequent damage to the internal barrel surfaces, due to the fact that the steel shot will remain in this fibre cup till it has left the barrel. But as I say, rumour and speculation is rife at the moment, so I think it's a case of watch this space. I’m not shooting you ( the messenger ) honestly, but I fail to see how some older guns will fail to cope with HP steel unless they’ve been reproofed? Reproofing doesn’t make any gun stronger, it simply tests it to see if it’s capable. If they pass however, then it goes to prove that they’re capable, and didn’t need the reproof. Bit of a catch 22 really, cos it’ll it fails ( which I doubt ) then you’re left with a gun that isn’t even capable of taking nitro anymore. 🤷♂️ Has anyone heard of a modern nitro proofed gun failing steel shot proofing? I haven’t, but there are a small number of 40+ year old guns in GT which have passed . I thought steel shot proofed guns were capable of using steel through full choke? Edited December 16, 2021 by Scully Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tonka54 Posted December 16, 2021 Report Share Posted December 16, 2021 37 minutes ago, Scully said: I’m not shooting you ( the messenger ) honestly, but I fail to see how some older guns will fail to cope with HP steel unless they’ve been reproofed? Reproofing doesn’t make any gun stronger, it simply tests it to see if it’s capable. If they pass however, then it goes to prove that they’re capable, and didn’t need the reproof. Bit of a catch 22 really, cos it’ll it fails ( which I doubt ) then you’re left with a gun that isn’t even capable of taking nitro anymore. 🤷♂️ Has anyone heard of a modern nitro proofed gun failing steel shot proofing? I haven’t, but there are a small number of 40+ year old guns in GT which have passed . I thought steel shot proofed guns were capable of using steel through full choke? Yes, your argument makes sense Scully and for all I know you could well be right. I'm just repeating what I have been told, but then again everyone is second guessing at the moment. Just a case of wait and see really. And yes that's my understanding also, modern full steel proof guns will come with full steel proof chokes, or be fitted with them if they are fixed. Otherwise they would not be totally steel proof. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
did i miss Posted December 16, 2021 Author Report Share Posted December 16, 2021 Thanks for all the help will put some photos up when I work out to make them small enough to post And thebigh91 yes it is 05 thanks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tonka54 Posted December 16, 2021 Report Share Posted December 16, 2021 34 minutes ago, did i miss said: Thanks for all the help will put some photos up when I work out to make them small enough to post And thebigh91 yes it is 05 thanks I can help you with this bro, assuming you have windows as your operating system, transfer your photo's to your computer or laptop, then in the menu search box type in paint 3D. When this program opens drag you photo's into it and chose resize, when your photo's are resized save them as a .jpeg to desktop. When making your post in pigeon watch, simply chose to drag your photo's into the post or click on "chose files" / desktop/ and then the photo to attach them. If you don't have access to a windows computer then the easiest way to do this is by phone, take your photo's with your phone then go to an image upload site such as : https://imgbb.com/ drag your photo's (one at a time) into this site and they will upload to it, when they have uploaded you can get a url link which you copy and then paste into your P/Watch post and when you submit the post the photo's will be there. Hope this helps. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sweet11-87 Posted December 16, 2021 Report Share Posted December 16, 2021 allot if not most gun/choke manufacturers dont recomend shooting steel through more than half choke becuase it create a pressure point that lead will compress and deform to easier than steel, and becasue steel tends to open back up again when you over choke it ruining patterns. these problems are more proonunced given that folks tend to go up a few shot sized with steel. even high end chokes designed with waterfowl in mind say not to go over BB in anything past half. as for shooting steel in your gun if it says 1200 bar or has the word SUP with 2 crowns above it means its superior proof and will be fine with standard steel. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JTaylor91 Posted December 17, 2021 Report Share Posted December 17, 2021 16 hours ago, Tonka54 said: Yes, your argument makes sense Scully and for all I know you could well be right. I'm just repeating what I have been told, but then again everyone is second guessing at the moment. Just a case of wait and see really. And yes that's my understanding also, modern full steel proof guns will come with full steel proof chokes, or be fitted with them if they are fixed. Otherwise they would not be totally steel proof. I have a Browning 525 I bought new about 3 years ago that’s proofed for steel. However the full choke has “lead only” printed on it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scully Posted December 17, 2021 Report Share Posted December 17, 2021 44 minutes ago, JTaylor91 said: I have a Browning 525 I bought new about 3 years ago that’s proofed for steel. However the full choke has “lead only” printed on it. If in doubt use lead. Sorted. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tonka54 Posted December 17, 2021 Report Share Posted December 17, 2021 7 hours ago, JTaylor91 said: I have a Browning 525 I bought new about 3 years ago that’s proofed for steel. However the full choke has “lead only” printed on it. The fact that you can take it out and read "lead only" means the choke is not fixed. As said before, nothing seems to be clear cut about the steel situation. I guess it would have to be a certainty for a fixed choke shotgun that is proofed for HP steel to be factory fitted with HP steel proof chokes ( of the appropriate size ), however, the situation with HP steel proof multi choke shotguns is not so clear cut. I don't think gunmakers themselves are a 100% sure what the final situation regarding HP steel proof guns and choking is going to be, but they have had to "best guess" to a certain extent in order to get new guns out there in readiness. So I think it's a probability that most gunmakers including Browning, Have gone with the general consensus of opinion (at present ), that half choke or equivalent is the max size HP steel proof choke they will supply with an HP steel proof shotgun, and any further but tighter chokes supplied will be lead only. Having said this, cartridge manufactures are coming out with new innovations and technologies periodically so it's all a bit fluid at the moment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
did i miss Posted December 17, 2021 Author Report Share Posted December 17, 2021 Well I have had a go see what happens Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old farrier Posted December 17, 2021 Report Share Posted December 17, 2021 21 minutes ago, Tonka54 said: The fact that you can take it out and read "lead only" means the choke is not fixed. As said before, nothing seems to be clear cut about the steel situation. I guess it would have to be a certainty for a fixed choke shotgun that is proofed for HP steel to be factory fitted with HP steel proof chokes ( of the appropriate size ), however, the situation with HP steel proof multi choke shotguns is not so clear cut. I don't think gunmakers themselves are a 100% sure what the final situation regarding HP steel proof guns and choking is going to be, but they have had to "best guess" to a certain extent in order to get new guns out there in readiness. So I think it's a probability that most gunmakers including Browning, Have gone with the general consensus of opinion (at present ), that half choke or equivalent is the max size HP steel proof choke they will supply with an HP steel proof shotgun, and any further but tighter chokes supplied will be lead only. Having said this, cartridge manufactures are coming out with new innovations and technologies periodically so it's all a bit fluid at the moment. Personally think it’s up to half choke on fixed and internal flush multi chokes ( ring bulge issue) extended multi chokes (there sacrificial) you can go a lot tighter and replace them cheaply when they wear or get damaged Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scully Posted December 17, 2021 Report Share Posted December 17, 2021 47 minutes ago, did i miss said: Well I have had a go see what happens No Fleur de lys that I can see, so it hasn’t been proofed for steel. The good news is it has 3” chambers and is choked at 1/4 and 1/2, so good to go. If in doubt, wait til I get my tickets back and I’ll give you 150 quid for it. Can’t say fairer than that, it’s useless without steel shot proofing! 👍 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
6.5x55SE Posted December 17, 2021 Report Share Posted December 17, 2021 56 minutes ago, Old farrier said: Personally think it’s up to half choke on fixed and internal flush multi chokes ( ring bulge issue) extended multi chokes (there sacrificial) you can go a lot tighter and replace them cheaply when they wear or get damaged Correct Sir 👍 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
6.5x55SE Posted December 17, 2021 Report Share Posted December 17, 2021 16 minutes ago, Scully said: No Fleur de lys that I can see, so it hasn’t been proofed for steel. The good news is it has 3” chambers and is choked at 1/4 and 1/2, so good to go. If in doubt, wait til I get my tickets back and I’ll give you 150 quid for it. Can’t say fairer than that, it’s useless without steel shot proofing! 👍 Plenty of Berretta and Benelli don't have Fleur de lys which ( as i have done personally ) if you phone GMK they have/will confirm 100% suitable for any Steel shot cartridges as they are Superior Proofed. As for extended choke situation ( again I've personally had it done ) get a eg 3/4 extended lead choke along with a 3/4 extended Steel shot choke and they will mic up exactly the same . Along with your train of thought Scully if the gun is sound it gets steel boring as it is my old Aya gets everything from factory to homeloads and 5's down to B's Steel 7/8oz to 1-3/8oz at least 2-3 times aweek 👍 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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