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Cock Pheasant Required Pellet Energy


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3 hours ago, Stonepark said:

I suspect a combination of elonger forcing cones (which have a major effect on 410) and better chokes (in that they are not over choking the gun, as lot of less expensive guns are woefully overchoked) would both improve a 410 overall patterns but would also make them less sensitive to ammunition choice.

 

Full choke on a 12 bore involves the constriction of the bore by 10.7% (40thou), translating this to 410 is 14 to 16 thou depending on bore size, yet many guns come with 20thou plus.

This was basically  what I suspected  .

Cheers  

5 hours ago, Down South said:

When I went back to using a small bore I developed a very technical method of choosing the best cartridge for my needs.

Carried out over several shoots, I bought 4 different brands of cartridge, put an equal amount of each in my bag and went shooting. Loading blind, cases from a kill or heavy hit went in one pocket, miss or ***** in an other pocket. It didn’t take long to see that 2 brands were superior. One of those has plastic wads so discounted leaving me my favourite that does what I want all season long. 

I like this idea  💡

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11 minutes ago, wymberley said:

Absolutely. For a start it's a waste of time as no one appears to know the answer.

It’s a pointless question 

as you say no one appears to know the answer 

there isn’t one there are far too many variables 

best thing is to get out shooting and come to your own conclusion based upon your personal experience 

And take a dog you’re bound to get at least one runner 

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25 minutes ago, Old farrier said:

It’s a pointless question 

as you say no one appears to know the answer 

there isn’t one there are far too many variables 

best thing is to get out shooting and come to your own conclusion based upon your personal experience 

And take a dog you’re bound to get at least one runner 

Re the dog, wouldn’t it be necessary to actually hit something first?

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30 minutes ago, wymberley said:

Re the dog, wouldn’t it be necessary to actually hit something first?

As I said your bound to get a runner 

eventually 🙄

there’s good shots they kill birds 

and

there’s bad shots they miss birds 

it’s the ones in between that cause the problem 

ask any picker up 🤭

 

 

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1 hour ago, Old farrier said:

It’s a pointless question 

as you say no one appears to know the answer 

there isn’t one there are far too many variables 

best thing is to get out shooting and come to your own conclusion based upon your personal experience 

And take a dog you’re bound to get at least one runner 

You must find your own answers on the journey…..grasshopper.

That will only mean something to those of a certain televisual vintage 😁

 

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1 hour ago, Old farrier said:
1 hour ago, Fellside said:

You must find your own answers on the journey…..grasshopper.

That will only mean something to those of a certain televisual vintage 😁

 

I am old enough to remember- I am also daft enough to know that  theory of shooting and actual throwing lead at things are very different and it’s an art to learn that can only be learnt ‘at the coal Face’
 

ps my dog is good at picking up runners very rarely mine 

Agriv8

 

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On 07/01/2022 at 18:22, Old farrier said:

As I said your bound to get a runner 

eventually 🙄

there’s good shots they kill birds 

and

there’s bad shots they miss birds 

it’s the ones in between that cause the problem 

ask any picker up 🤭

 

 

And then there's those guns that tell you they've shot loads. 

When you know quite clearly they missed them all. 😉

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1 hour ago, TIGHTCHOKE said:

Those people only leave out one very important word.............AT!   :good:

Going to fess up here shoot before yesterday  I had one of those AT days ! 
 

yesterday shot 2 carts got soaked but had my 11 year old lad and my dad beating and flanking  with me .both saw me down my only addition  to the bag ! 

my dad had my lad picking up for him as he marked the shot birds in the wood !

Big numbers shooting I am happy to leave to others - yesterday delivered shooting enjoyment in a different way !

Agriv8 

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5 minutes ago, Agriv8 said:

Going to fess up here shoot before yesterday  I had one of those AT days ! 
yesterday shot 2 carts got soaked but had my 11 year old lad and my dad beating and flanking  with me .both saw me down my only addition  to the bag ! my dad had my lad picking up for him as he marked the shot birds in the wood !     Big numbers shooting I am happy to leave to others - yesterday delivered shooting enjoyment in a different way !

But you were safe and ENJOYED yourselves without having to try to justify the science!

Well done.

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36 minutes ago, Agriv8 said:

Going to fess up here shoot before yesterday  I had one of those AT days ! 
 

yesterday shot 2 carts got soaked but had my 11 year old lad and my dad beating and flanking  with me .both saw me down my only addition  to the bag ! 

my dad had my lad picking up for him as he marked the shot birds in the wood !

Big numbers shooting I am happy to leave to others - yesterday delivered shooting enjoyment in a different way !

Agriv8 

Doesn’t matter, we all have off days. A Mate often has an off season, but he knows why. 🙂

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On 03/01/2022 at 12:55, wymberley said:

A good friend of my step-son has 'come of age' as it were with sufficient time and dosh now available to get stuck in. I could answer this one question that he's asked - he's a tad confused by all the various opinions that he's come across - but I too can only offer my opinion and I suspect that I would be over cautious. What is the PW consensus opinion from the game shooters regarding the Subject necessary energy level for a clean kill all things being equal? He is being sensible in asking as he will be shooting on some of the mid-Devon high-ish bird shoots where pattern also becomes a consideration.

It used to be. I think, the energy that was that of an English #6 at forty five yards. I think it is in one of the Gough Thomas books? Now I can't remember at all what it is but it may be 0.75 ft/lbs, 1.5 ft/lbs or 4.5 ft/lbs. If I had to make a guess I'd say 1.5 ft/lbs?

Aha! The internet is my friend! Indeed it was 1.5 ft/lbs. I've not read G T Garwood (Gough Tomas) for maybe twenty years but these things stick in the mind. He was into his ounce of English #6 from recall? Anyway here is what I've cut and pasted from the internet:

Quote

Gough Thomas’s book Shotguns and Cartridges for Game and Clays suggests the following:

• Small birds such as snipe: two pellets, striking energy at least 0.5 ft.lb.
• Medium birds such as partridge and grouse: three pellets, striking energy at least 0.85 ft.lb.
• Pheasants and ducks: four pellets and striking energy from 1 to 1.5 ft.lb.

 

Edited by enfieldspares
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40 minutes ago, enfieldspares said:

It used to be. I think, the energy that was that of an English #6 at forty five yards. I think it is in one of the Gough Thomas books? Now I can't remember at all what it is but it may be 0.75 ft/lbs, 1.5 ft/lbs or 4.5 ft/lbs. If I had to make a guess I'd say 1.5 ft/lbs?

Aha! The internet is my friend! Indeed it was 1.5 ft/lbs. I've not read G T Garwood (Gough Tomas) for maybe twenty years but these things stick in the mind. He was into his ounce of English #6 from recall? Anyway here is what I've cut and pasted from the internet:

 

Nice one. Many thanks indeed. Had a bit of an upheaval here and all my references have been out of reach so had an idea on how to show the lad that he wasn't alone. However, his interest was the impetus for me to pull my finger out and I've now retrieved them for him should he want to have a read.

Re GT, unlike many other authors, he was quite content to correct some of his earlier work should technology/further experience indicate that it may well have been not totally accurate. Consequently, in later editions of the book you refer to and in particular the chapter (Choice of Gun [Performance]) from which you quote, he gives reasons why this may well not be valid. Subsequent studies reflect that he was right. It is, perhaps, unfortunate that editors and publishers know full well that anything slightly technical is not what the UK shooters want to read.  

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31 minutes ago, wymberley said:

It is, perhaps, unfortunate that editors and publishers know full well that anything slightly technical is not what the UK shooters want to read.  

I don’t think it’s a matter of not being interested Wymberley, but rather only an interest in that which is relevant to improve one’s shooting. 
Knowing the ‘required pellet energy’ of a pellet will do nothing to improve anyones shooting. How could it?

All the required science, design elements and fabrication that is entailed in the manufacture of a game cartridge has already been done. All it takes for the modern day shooter, whether experienced shot or raw beginner, is choose one of those many fabulous game cartridges commercially available. 
There’s no harm in an inquisitive mind wanting to know, but that knowledge won’t improve his or her shooting. 

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9 minutes ago, Scully said:


Knowing the ‘required pellet energy’ of a pellet will do nothing to improve anyones shooting. How could it?

It won't improve anyone's shooting. That's true.

But I disagree that it's entirely useless. It'll help achieve better kills and in that sense ensure that birds that the shooter may think they've missed (as in truth they've hit them with shot with inadequate energy to penetrate to a vital spot or to break a wing bone) where if they'd used a more suitable shot size that hit would have been a killing hit or a hit that brought the bird down.

So it'll guide the individual to knowing that at fifty yards although the pattern with 1 ounce will be up to it that English #9 where lead shot is still legal to use probably isn't what's ideal for duck. That maybe a larger shot size is needed but that whilst English #BB will kill and has the energy to kill out to seventy-five yards even that with just one ounce the pattern in #BB won't be up to it.

So using his "required pellet energy" or 1 ft/lb or so the individual can decide that English #6 will have the required energy and with one ounce in a tightly choked barrel also the pattern. It won't improve shooting in making the person a better shot but it will ensure that those shots that connect with the bird bring it down.

Edited by enfieldspares
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On 03/01/2022 at 15:49, TIGHTCHOKE said:

Gordon Bennett, here we go again!   

Will it never end!!!     I shoot a 410 almost exclusively and I know that my own reloads, or the Fiocchi 18g 3 inch and the Hull High Pheasant and the relatively new Lylevale 3 inch will do the job out to 40yrds if I do.   I am not a 'willy wagler just wanting to use pheasants/partridge as targets so I decline to shoot at anyhting judged to be over 40yrds where I know the afore mentioned cartridges will do the job if I put them in the pattern.   I have no time whatsoever for the willy waglers who shoot birds at percieved  60--70  -80yrds and no doubt, without doubt ***** and wound more birds than they actually kill humanely.

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22 minutes ago, enfieldspares said:

It won't improve anyone's shooting. That's true.

But I disagree that it's entirely useless. It'll help achieve better kills and in that sense ensure that birds that the shooter may think they've missed (as in truth they've hit them with shot with inadequate energy to penetrate to a vital spot or to break a wing bone) where if they'd used a more suitable shot size that hit would have been a killing hit or a hit that brought the bird down.

So it'll guide the individual to knowing that at fifty yards although the pattern with 1 ounce will be up to it that English #9 where lead shot is still legal to use probably isn't what's ideal for duck. That maybe a larger shot size is needed but that whilst English #BB will kill and has the energy to kill out to seventy-five yards even that with just one ounce the pattern in #BB won't be up to it.

So using his "required pellet energy" or 1 ft/lb or so the individual can decide that English #6 will have the required energy and with one ounce in a tightly choked barrel also the pattern. It won't improve shooting in making the person a better shot but it will ensure that those shots that connect with the bird bring it down.

I disagree. There are simply too many variables at play when shooting live quarry, for anyone to state that if they had a heavier load delivering a heavier pellet, they wouldn’t have missed or just pricked, that particular bird. 
All the individual needs to know is which cartridge is suitable for the type of live quarry they have planned, and not the pellet energy within that particular cartridge. Someone else has already done the work. 

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My friend was picking up recently and a dog had brought in a mangled woodcock. It was an unexpected addition to the bag and had been shot with the 38g n°3 full choke the gun had been using on the tall pheasants. It was not fit for the dinner table.

You can have too much as easily as too little. A mid weight 28-30g of 5 or 6 shot will do pretty much any situation. Steel loads will vary. 

Edited by WalkedUp
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