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Sliding breech gun Darne & ZF (Darne lookalike)


Old Boggy
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I know that one or two on here own a Darne gun and wonder if they have experienced the same as my pal Stour Boy on here has. 

The last couple of times out he has been using some of my cartridges in his 16 bore Darne and 16 bore ZF (Darne lookalike). The cartridges are 16 bore RC16 28g fibre wad 6s and 16 bore Eley VIP game 28g fibre wad 6s.

In both of his guns the spent cartridges have shown powder residue around the primers. It is apparent that the firing pins are penetrating the primers and causing this, as evident by the fact that on testing afterwards with water, there was a definite hole through the primer.

Now I know that sliding breech guns by design take the breech hard up against the barrels preventing little or no headspace between cartridge and breech face. This is supposed to decrease the felt recoil and appears to be a good design. 

However, he has been using both guns now for many years and it is only with new cartridges that the problem has arisen. The Darne has obturator discs on the breech, the ZF hasn`t.

Previously used cartridges have been Lyalvale and Hull I believe, with no adverse affect whatsoever.

We therefore suspect the newer cartridges are made with thinner primer metal than older ones. A solution would be to file down the tip of the firing pins a tad, but wondered if anyone has had similar problems. Whether it is a problem or not, as it doesn`t seem to affect the operation of the cartridge. He (and I) can miss with both old and new cartridges :whistling:

I will attempt to upload some photos later showing the cartridges and also both gun`s breech faces.

Any comments would be most gratefully received.

Thanks in advance.

OB

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I can't recall ever having had that problem with my Darne (12 bore).  In fact the Darne has been very reliable (though it is very lightly used).  I have had that problem with certain cartridges (one was Impax but a long time ago with a Powell gun) and some guns (a Beretta needed attention for doing that on the lower barrel only and an AyA Yeoman I once had did it).

I would never file metal away except as a very last resort.  It cannot be put back and Darne spares will not be easy.  If it is only one make of cartridge - you may have a batch with soft primers.  Be aware that the 'soot' may be slightly corrosive.  Primers do vary - and one make of cartridge I bought misfired (about 5% of shots) in 3 guns I have (all the same make) and yet work 100% fine in all other makes tried!  Gunsmith reckoned the primers were set very low on those cartridges (there was a significant gap between  straight edge laid across the head and the primer).

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1 hour ago, JohnfromUK said:

I would never file metal away except as a very last resort.  It cannot be put back and Darne spares will not be easy.  If it is only one make of cartridge - you may have a batch with soft primers.  Be aware that the 'soot' may be slightly corrosive.  Primers do vary - and one make of cartridge I bought misfired (about 5% of shots) in 3 guns I have (all the same make) and yet work 100% fine in all other makes tried!  Gunsmith reckoned the primers were set very low on those cartridges (there was a significant gap between  straight edge laid across the head and the primer).

THIS! IN SPADES!

I would contact the cartridge maker and raise the matter with them.

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Posted (edited)

Thanks for both replies. I have previously had problems with 16 bore Eley VIP cartridges with the crimps badly shot away after firing. Eley replaced the cartridges and said they would investigate and let me know the outcome but they never did. 
I suspect that the manufacturing process and materials used have changed over time, hence the problem with these primers. 
OB

Edited by Old Boggy
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8 minutes ago, Old Boggy said:

I suspect that the manufacturing process and materials used have changed over time, hence the problem with these primers.

This does happen.  The incident mentioned above with Impax occurred about 40 years ago, but I had been using Impax with no problems - and suddenly got punctured primers.  No problem with other makes of cartridge tried.  Took the gun into William Powells (then in B'ham run by the Powell family) along with a few cartridges.  The gun was checked for firing pin 'dimensions' etc., and found OK and Powells contacted Eley - who replaced the cartridges without difficulty - and I had no problems with the replacements.  It was apparently a change to primer type/maker if I remember right.

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Posted (edited)

I now attach a couple of photos of the Darne, ZF and the cartridges.

As rightly said above by Dave and Enfieldspares, doing anything  with the firing pins would appear not to be an option.

Did I read somewhere that some Eley cases were now made in Italy?

OB

HZYT6054.JPG

TLVP3295.JPG

ADZT2659.JPG

Edited by Old Boggy
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39 minutes ago, ditchman said:

have the hammer springs been replaced recently ?...or the pin rebound springs ?  do the pin rebound springs need replacing ?

 

18 minutes ago, Jaymo said:

Rebound springs was my thought too. 

But this has recently happened on both guns. It appears too much of a coincidence.

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Hi Gents, OB.  very kindly put this thread up for me as i haven’t learnt how to put photos on, the firing pins from what I remember do not have rebound springs. I think it’s one coil spring behind each firing pin.

I have some older cartridges tucked away somewhere, I will give those a try  and let you all know the results, if they are ok we will know the the primers are made from a thinner gauge of metal. (Copper) ? If so we will be back to black powder and twisted paper 🙄 eventually.

Thanks for your input guys and special thanks to Chris who drags me out in all weathers for a bit of sport and banter, nearly forgot, pork pies etc.

ps. Still got a chunk of Christmas Stollen for next time.

S.B.

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10 hours ago, Stour-boy said:

Hi Gents, OB.  very kindly put this thread up for me as i haven’t learnt how to put photos on, the firing pins from what I remember do not have rebound springs. I think it’s one coil spring behind each firing pin.

I have some older cartridges tucked away somewhere, I will give those a try  and let you all know the results, if they are ok we will know the the primers are made from a thinner gauge of metal. (Copper) ? If so we will be back to black powder and twisted paper 🙄 eventually.

Thanks for your input guys and special thanks to Chris who drags me out in all weathers for a bit of sport and banter, nearly forgot, pork pies etc.

ps. Still got a chunk of Christmas Stollen for next time.

S.B.

i had some stollen cake once at xmas................i didnt go to the toilet until the 17th of april...

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Hi gents, I am hoping I may have found the problem, the tips of the firing pins on both guns when viewed under a magnifying glass looked like the Himalayas, rough as a badgers backside and I think that the problem was that the primer was being pierced, soo I haves very gently burnished the sharp edges making them a lot smoother. 

Will let you know how I get on. By the way, As the Darne and the Z.F  have sliding breeches there is no requirement for a rebound spring.

Thanks for your input gents I hope I am right🤞

S.B.

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