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This makes my blood boil !!!!


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Cartridge prices are being pushed up to eye watering levels and there seems to be no end to this. I think some suppliers and dealers are just inflating prices to see how far they can go. I have posted something similar on another forum. I have just checked prices at my local decathlon store in Spain this morning. Divide the price shown by 1.2 to give £ price. Also bear in mind ,these are small amounts and this is a general sports store, I am sure serious shooters in Spain will have even cheaper options.

 

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At what price point does the average shooter simply cut down on the amount they shoot rather than justifying £220 a thousand for the cheapest cartridges they can find?

The UK is crying out for a manufacturer to start pumping out cartridges on a 'stack em high, sell em cheap' basis rather than the current trend of low volume with a perceived high quality basis (see Black Gold DS, Parcours type cartridges).

The situation isn't helped by every shooting related media outlet (Magazines, YouTube channels etc) carping on about paying £400+ a thousand for a fibre cartridge being worth it and the only solution to add that last few percent onto your scores. It's paid advertising, I get it but it's not helping. 

 

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3 minutes ago, Poor Shot said:

At what price point does the average shooter simply cut down on the amount they shoot rather than justifying £220 a thousand for the cheapest cartridges they can find?

The UK is crying out for a manufacturer to start pumping out cartridges on a 'stack em high, sell em cheap' basis rather than the current trend of low volume with a perceived high quality basis (see Black Gold DS, Parcours type cartridges).

The situation isn't helped by every shooting related media outlet (Magazines, YouTube channels etc) carping on about paying £400+ a thousand for a fibre cartridge being worth it and the only solution to add that last few percent onto your scores. It's paid advertising, I get it but it's not helping. 

The Stack 'em high, sell 'em cheap, Woolworths approach is interesting, I look forward to someone starting a business up on those lines.

 

Let FOOLS pay premium prices, I don't!  :cool1:

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1 minute ago, TIGHTCHOKE said:

The Stack 'em high, sell 'em cheap, Woolworths approach is interesting, I look forward to someone starting a business up on those lines.

 

Let FOOLS pay premium prices, I don't!  :cool1:

The phrase was first coined by the bloke behind Tesco's I believe? Woolworths not being the best example of that business model with them being out of business and all that..

It works well enough for big stores like Decathlon on the continent so I don't see why it wouldn't work in the UK?  

Empire cartridges looked promising but they are near 20% more expensive than buying from Just Cartridges which is an expensive method of buying cartridges as is.

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In the early 1960’s cartridges were ten shillings (50p) per box, that is £2/hundred, £20/thousand.  
My father was at the time a serving police Constable earning £10/week. My pal’s father was a draughtsman earning £12/week.  
So that was two weeks wages for a thousand cartridges. 
I have no idea what the average wage is today, but it is perhaps between £400/£600/week? So are ordinary cartridges now between £800/£1200/1000? 
NO.

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56 minutes ago, London Best said:

Go and live in Spain then. 
Personally, I think it is worth the extra to live in U.K.

Ignoring for a moment the Covid nonsense - where the UK is by comparison moderate compared to vast tracts of mainland Europe - not sure how paying more for cartridges in return for a lower quality of life, worse healthcare, and so forth, helps to the OP.

Back on track, perhaps it's a classic supply-and-demand problem, mixed with the UK's restrictive legislative environment. 

A quick google indicates approx 3 million 'registered firearms' in Spain amongst 1.1 million users.  In contrast, in the UK, as of 31 March 2020, 586,351 people held a firearm and/or a shotgun certificate (Home office document, PDF).

 

4 minutes ago, Poor Shot said:

It works well enough for big stores like Decathlon on the continent so I don't see why it wouldn't work in the UK?  

Mostly because the UK is an incredibly hostile retail environment in general, and to the gun trade in particular.

Additionally, I can't see Decathlon  in the UK going through all the hoops to make their stores RFDs, for instance.  They've barely opened up any stores in the UK, sadly, as I find their gear to be priced well and performs as expected.  

59 minutes ago, Poor Shot said:

Woolworths not being the best example of that business model with them being out of business and all that..

Quite.  But the likes of B&M, numerous poundshops, Home Bargains etc all making decent profits prove that this is successful.  The fact some people still refer to it as the 'Woolworths business model' says more about their age than the model itself.

I really don't see how you can extend it to restricted things such as shotgun cartridges, however.

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1 hour ago, udderlyoffroad said:

Mostly because the UK is an incredibly hostile retail environment in general, and to the gun trade in particular.

Additionally, I can't see Decathlon  in the UK going through all the hoops to make their stores RFDs, for instance.  They've barely opened up any stores in the UK, sadly, as I find their gear to be priced well and performs as expected.  

Quite.  But the likes of B&M, numerous poundshops, Home Bargains etc all making decent profits prove that this is successful.  The fact some people still refer to it as the 'Woolworths business model' says more about their age than the model itself.

I really don't see how you can extend it to restricted things such as shotgun cartridges, however.

It wouldn't really work out for Decathalon in the UK due to their small presence but I only used them as an example of this working on the continent. What I really thinking about was being able to pop into your local Go Outdoors or Sports Direct style store and pick up a slab of GO or other branded cartridges for significantly less money than that of an RFD. I'm not sure on the exact requirements but I can imagine that selling only cartridges, consumables, airguns etc would require much less investment than becoming a full scale RFD with firearms sales etc. I appreciate that there are 'Country Stores' that already exist and do this (Mole Valley etc) but very rarely do they stock anything other than a small selection of Eley, Hull or Lyalvale cartridges at the same high prices as your average RFD. 

I really do believe that there is a comparatively large hole in the UK market for a manufacturer to step in selling dirt cheap cartridges in bulk either as an independent or via other routes. Judging by how fast the cheaper in house cartridges sell out from the likes of sportsmans gun center. IME for every one shooter that buys into the "The more I pay, the better results I can expect' way of thinking there will be 5+ that will pick up a couple thousand of the cheapest 28g on the list and be perfectly happy with them.    

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2 hours ago, udderlyoffroad said:

Ignoring for a moment the Covid nonsense - where the UK is by comparison moderate compared to vast tracts of mainland Europe - not sure how paying more for cartridges in return for a lower quality of life, worse healthcare, and so forth, 

 

 

 

Eh ! Where did I mention that I live in Spain and where did I suggest moving there just to buy cartridges. I was only trying to point out the vast difference in price. 

In my opinion the price differential is too great to put it down to all the excuses being offered. 

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26 minutes ago, TRINITY said:

Eh ! Where did I mention that I live in Spain and where did I suggest moving there just to buy cartridges.

Err, @London Best mentioned it, not me.  I was only responding to his slightly glib 'Move to Spain' comment with some grass-isn't-always-greener thoughts.  I then, through brief use of google, pointed out that Spain has nearly double the amount of people who would buy shotgun cartridges, with a smaller population to boot.

 

1 hour ago, Poor Shot said:

for significantly less money than that of an RFD

Hmmm, not sure it's that simple.  Yes, whilst you might not need the full RFD licence to sell cartridges, the due diligence and faff means it isn't far short, see Mole Valley as an example.  They're also both heavy and bulky, must be kept dry and have a hazchem warning, which means as a retail prospect they're not great.

But, I hope more competition happens. It's the ultimate leveller.

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25 minutes ago, udderlyoffroad said:

Err, @London Best mentioned it, not me.  I was only responding to his slightly glib 'Move to Spain' comment with some grass-isn't-always-greener thoughts.  I then, through brief use of google, pointed out that Spain has nearly double the amount of people who would buy shotgun cartridges, with a smaller population to boot.

 

I must apologise,  I did not read your post correctly in respect of your quotation. 

Anyhow thanks for the remark on that point. When I saw the particular post myself I thought it was so irrelevant that I just ignored it.

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8 hours ago, TRINITY said:

. I have just checked prices at my local decathlon store in Spain this morning.

 

Screenshot_20220121-075905_Chrome.jpg

I took it from your wording about ‘my local store in Spain’ that you were actually there.

Referring to the title of the post, something which makes my blood boil is someone moaning that stuff is cheaper/better/more available in whatever foreign country you care to mention, than it is in U.K. 
If U.K. is so bad for them, let them leave.

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4 hours ago, London Best said:

In the early 1960’s cartridges were ten shillings (50p) per box, that is £2/hundred, £20/thousand.  
My father was at the time a serving police Constable earning £10/week. My pal’s father was a draughtsman earning £12/week.  
So that was two weeks wages for a thousand cartridges. 
I have no idea what the average wage is today, but it is perhaps between £400/£600/week? So are ordinary cartridges now between £800/£1200/1000? 
NO.

This. Cartridges have in fact never been cheaper in real terms.

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Back in the late 80s and early 90s I spent a lot of time in Texas USA and shotgun cartridge prices then seemed very expensive and I could understand why many shooter purchased quality reloading gear and did their own. The £ purchased $1..90 back then and other things including rifle ammo was seriously cheap with gas(petrol) at 65cents a gallon.   I think wherever you travel around the world then exchange rates etc will make a difference.

I remember going down to the paper shop and buying a box of Eley Grand Prix for my Grandfather for 10/-  my father at the time was earning about £4 a week.  My Auntie always put a ten bob note in my birthday card and I thought I was a millionaire.

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28 minutes ago, London Best said:

I took it from your wording about ‘my local store in Spain’ that you were actually there.

Referring to the title of the post, something which makes my blood boil is someone moaning that stuff is cheaper/better/more available in whatever foreign country you care to mention, than it is in U.K. 
If U.K. is so bad for them, let them leave.

Yes I am actually there. But I don't live there and I am a UK citizen. Yes I am moaning about something .The Spanish shooting industry seems to me that it looks after its shooters better than our UK counterparts. So what is wrong with questioning why UK shooters should not have the same benefits. 

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7 minutes ago, TRINITY said:

Yes I am actually there. But I don't live there and I am a UK citizen. Yes I am moaning about something .The Spanish shooting industry seems to me that it looks after its shooters better than our UK counterparts. So what is wrong with questioning why UK shooters should not have the same benefits. 


if you want the same benefits you probably need the same manufacturing infrastructure and capacity ie in Spain (Italy, Turkey) they make, primers, cases, powder, wads, shot all easily sold to the many cartridge manufactures, prey what do we make that is available in the same way? Answer nothing.

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4 minutes ago, rbrowning2 said:


if you want the same benefits you probably need the same manufacturing infrastructure and capacity ie in Spain (Italy, Turkey) they make, primers, cases, powder, wads, shot all easily sold to the many cartridge manufactures, prey what do we make that is available in the same way? Answer nothing.

Again I understand all that but I still don't accept this justifies such a huge price difference. In the UK cartridge prices Have been ramped up several times over the past 6 months. Yet Fiocchi UK have remained stable, albeit people have mentioned that on Jan 17th their price is to increase. Again I accept Fiocchi will not be immune to inflationary pressures. However I wonder have they recognised how the competion have greatly increased their pricing and thought ' we can have a bit of that' . This would give them a significant margin boost and yet they can easily keep their price just below the competition and retain and possibly increase market share. 

If true then it's the only sensible business decision they could take. But as far as us shooters are concerned , unless someone is prepared to step in and break this cycle then we will suffer. 

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28 minutes ago, TRINITY said:

Again I understand all that but I still don't accept this justifies such a huge price difference. In the UK cartridge prices Have been ramped up several times over the past 6 months. Yet Fiocchi UK have remained stable, albeit people have mentioned that on Jan 17th their price is to increase. Again I accept Fiocchi will not be immune to inflationary pressures. However I wonder have they recognised how the competion have greatly increased their pricing and thought ' we can have a bit of that' . This would give them a significant margin boost and yet they can easily keep their price just below the competition and retain and possibly increase market share. 

If true then it's the only sensible business decision they could take. But as far as us shooters are concerned , unless someone is prepared to step in and break this cycle then we will suffer. 


unfortunately accounts run business these days and they have no heart.

 

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22 minutes ago, rbrowning2 said:

unfortunately accounts run business these days and they have no heart.

Accountants have always run businesses, or at least the ones that have stayed in business!

Apart from all of the above though, I think the UK just isn't that price sensitive.  We are used to high prices, and we just moan and pay them.  Time and money are in such short supply, that the idea of inconveniencing oneself just to save 50p/box doesn't stack up for all but the most time-rich/cash-poor people, i.e. the retired.

Of course, the likes of Mole Valley shift far more budget cartridges than they do the premium stuff, but I doubt the margin on either (for the retailer) is brilliant.

And yes, the market is so small here, that although I would stop short of accusing anyone on a public forum of price fixing, it couldn't take too many representatives from the industry, at some kind of function, say one of the gamefair after-hours ****-ups, for a nudge-wink, no-record agreement to keep prices at a level.  Or am I now a conspiracy theorist 😂

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36 minutes ago, TRINITY said:

Again I understand all that but I still don't accept this justifies such a huge price difference. In the UK cartridge prices Have been ramped up several times over the past 6 months. Yet Fiocchi UK have remained stable, albeit people have mentioned that on Jan 17th their price is to increase. Again I accept Fiocchi will not be immune to inflationary pressures. However I wonder have they recognised how the competion have greatly increased their pricing and thought ' we can have a bit of that' . This would give them a significant margin boost and yet they can easily keep their price just below the competition and retain and possibly increase market share. 

If true then it's the only sensible business decision they could take. But as far as us shooters are concerned , unless someone is prepared to step in and break this cycle then we will suffer. 

The first manufacturer to snap and start offering cartridges at a super competitive price will sweep most of the market overnight.

I've often wondered why a company like cheddite, who manufacturer cases, wads etc for other cartridge makers, doesn't use that as an advantage and offer cartridges at a lower cost than everyone else? Unless Cheddite are afraid that undercutting the market would lose them the custom of the other cartridge makers for the components? 

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