Pink powder.

[mellors]

Hi all. 

Any idea what powder this could be ????. 

I've acquired a lot of 12 gauge lyvale/nitedal 21g 7.5 steel and I was hoping to use it to reload 20gauge steel obviously with the appropriate data once I've identified what it is 

[snow white]

Looks like maxam psi+2 or just psb2 but don’t take my word on 

Edited January 31, 2022 by snow white

[Minky]

2 hours ago, snow white said:

Looks like maxam psi+2 or just psb2 but don’t take my word on 

yep.  Most likely

[Smudger687]

psb2 would be my guess too. I don't think it would be particularly helpful to use for anything other than light steel loads in 20 bore though. 

[rbrowning2]

Dangerous idea trying to guess the powder due to its colour and shape.

find proper load data for the 20ga cartridge you want to make with components you can get and use that.

you risk bringing reloading into disrepute if loading for rifle, pistol or shotgun the golden rule is to follow published data.

stay safe.

Edited January 31, 2022 by rbrowning2

[mellors]

4 hours ago, rbrowning2 said:

Dangerous idea trying to guess the powder due to its colour and shape.

find proper load data for the 20ga cartridge you want to make with components you can get and use that.

you risk bringing reloading into disrepute if loading for rifle, pistol or shotgun the golden rule is to follow published data.

stay safe.

READ AGAIN. 

Thanks for your concern but your comments are covered in the original post. 

[rbrowning2]

49 minutes ago, mellors said:

READ AGAIN. 

Thanks for your concern but your comments are covered in the original post. 

Think I read it correctly first time, you will be using published load data but only following guessing the powder identity from its colour and shape.

Pink powder so all assume it to be psb2 yet if lyalvale, they are partnered with Vectan, psb is made by maxam have you never heard of A24 also a pink square flake powder but made by Vectan.  However not a powder you will ever buy, so virtually nil chance of finding published load data, especially for steel shot. Then other commercial powders are produced for cartridge manufacture that are unique to them.

Do you feel lucky?  

Take the risk of a guess with an explosive if you do, or simply start from scratch with known ingredients.

 

 

[mellors]

12 minutes ago, rbrowning2 said:

Think I read it correctly first time, you will be using published load data but only following guessing the powder identity from its colour and shape.

Pink powder so all assume it to be psb2 yet if lyalvale, they are partnered with Vectan, psb is made by maxam have you never heard of A24 also a pink square flake powder but made by Vectan.  However not a powder you will ever buy, so virtually nil chance of finding published load data, especially for steel shot. Then other commercial powders are produced for cartridge manufacture that are unique to them.

Do you feel lucky?  

Take the risk of a guess with an explosive if you do, or simply start from scratch with known ingredients.

 

 

Ok thanks. 

That was the point of asking. 

I have no intention of experimenting with any thing i don't know. 

[Smudger687]

2 hours ago, rbrowning2 said:

Think I read it correctly first time, you will be using published load data but only following guessing the powder identity from its colour and shape.

Pink powder so all assume it to be psb2 yet if lyalvale, they are partnered with Vectan, psb is made by maxam have you never heard of A24 also a pink square flake powder but made by Vectan.  However not a powder you will ever buy, so virtually nil chance of finding published load data, especially for steel shot. Then other commercial powders are produced for cartridge manufacture that are unique to them.

Do you feel lucky?  

Take the risk of a guess with an explosive if you do, or simply start from scratch with known ingredients.

 

 

Bit over dramatic really, and more than a bit patronising. We have enough school hall monitors in the shooting community, wouldn't hurt to refrain from jumping down people's throat at the first opportunity. 

[rbrowning2]

15 minutes ago, Smudger687 said:

Bit over dramatic really, and more than a bit patronising. We have enough school hall monitors in the shooting community, wouldn't hurt to refrain from jumping down people's throat at the first opportunity. 

Actually it was my second post, not my first. My first had failed to convince the op of the potential dangers of what he was considering trying to do.

not a very forgiving combination steel shot with the wrong powder. 

If over dramatic and patronising (your words) has saved the op from self harm then I really don’t care what you think.

 

[holloway]

31 minutes ago, Smudger687 said:

Bit over dramatic really, and more than a bit patronising. We have enough school hall monitors in the shooting community, wouldn't hurt to refrain from jumping down people's throat at the first opportunity. 

Not over dramatic at all or patronising, really good experienced heads up on a really defo no brainier , if you don’t know 100% what powder put a match to it .

[Smudger687]

58 minutes ago, rbrowning2 said:

Actually it was my second post, not my first. My first had failed to convince the op of the potential dangers of what he was considering trying to do.

not a very forgiving combination steel shot with the wrong powder. 

If over dramatic and patronising (your words) has saved the op from self harm then I really don’t care what you think.

 

My apologies - it wouldn't hurt to refrain jumping down his throat at the SECOND opportunity. 

Kind Regards

[deershooter]

There is a way of telling by measuring it’s density Psb2 is 580 g per litre ,weigh an average measure of 4 cc then use the calculation here 

[rbrowning2]

8 hours ago, Smudger687 said:

My apologies - it wouldn't hurt to refrain jumping down his throat at the SECOND opportunity. 

Kind Regards

My apologies if you think I was jumping down his throat, my intentions was to drive home just how risky and potentially dangerous guessing a powder type on its colour and shape could be. 

as for using its density to confirm powder type again not without risk and probably needs scientific accuracy measuring equipment to be practical.

yes the density of psb2 is 580g per litre, but so is psb+2sp a completely different powder and more importantly burn rate.

https://www.maxamcorp.com/en/cartridges-components/components/powder

And no guarantee another manufactures powder same type, single base,  square flake and pink is not the same density or a special manufactured for the commercial cartridge manufactures.

both psb’s probably to slow for a 21gm 12ga steel shot load, and given lyalvale principle use Vectan trying to guess is far too risky and even if you did guess correctly would load data for a 20ga steel shot cartridge be available for the powder, very unlikely.

We all want a cheap cartridge, but use common sense and do not risk self harm or damage to your firearm just to save a few pounds.

If you really think the savings justify the idea then use the proof house to test some loads before you do, otherwise follow published load data.

stay safe.

Rant over.

 

[mellors]

9 hours ago, rbrowning2 said:

Actually it was my second post, not my first. My first had failed to convince the op of the potential dangers of what he was considering trying to do.

not a very forgiving combination steel shot with the wrong powder. 

If over dramatic and patronising (your words) has saved the op from self harm then I really don’t care what you think.

 

READ AGAIN. 

Is it me???. 

I have a large amount of. 

21 gram STEEL cartridges and and would potentially like to use them to reload 20 gauge STEEL subject to powder identification and data if available. 

Obviously i already reload but the potential of a considerable amount of free powder and primers was the reason for the original  post.

Where did i go wrong.???. 

[Stonepark]

1 minute ago, mellors said:

Where did i go wrong.???. 

20b steel cartridges need a powder that is slower than 12b steel cartridges for a given load in order to keep pressures within limits due to the smaller case volume and bore.

 

PSB would be fine for lead 21g in the 20b but not steel.

[rbrowning2]

27 minutes ago, mellors said:

READ AGAIN. 

Is it me???. 

I have a large amount of. 

21 gram STEEL cartridges and and would potentially like to use them to reload 20 gauge STEEL subject to powder identification and data if available. 

Obviously i already reload but the potential of a considerable amount of free powder and primers was the reason for the original  post.

Where did i go wrong.???. 

so far you have not gone wrong, and I fully appreciate what you are trying to achieve, years back we were buying very cheap cut offs, manufactures rejects however their was a good reason it got stopped.

generally speaking steel shot cartridges need careful consideration as to the type of powder they require, if you were taking the 12gauge ones apart due to say corrosion of the rim and then making like for like again I would say carry on but not only are you wanting to guess the identity of the powder but then switch to using it in a 20gauge,  compounding the risk.

it is very unlikely lyalvale are using Maxam, given their partnership with vectan, but yes not impossible.

If you have a lot of the powder then use the proof house to test some 20ga loads would be the safest way to proceed.

edited to add

or why not phone lyalvale and ask them for the powder type, their are good people working their.
 

Edited February 1, 2022 by rbrowning2

[mellors]

9 minutes ago, rbrowning2 said:

so far you have not gone wrong, and I fully appreciate what you are trying to achieve, years back we were buying very cheap cut offs, manufactures rejects however their was a good reason it got stopped.

generally speaking steel shot cartridges need careful consideration as to the type of powder they require, if you were taking the 12gauge ones apart due to say corrosion of the rim and then making like for like again I would say carry on but not only are you wanting to guess the identity of the powder but then switch to using it in a 20gauge,  compounding the risk.

it is very unlikely lyalvale are using Maxam, given their partnership with vectan, but yes not impossible.

If you have a lot of the powder then use the proof house to test some 20ga loads would be the safest way to proceed.

 

 

 

 

Thanks. 

That was the sort of answer i originally expected. 

But it was worth the ask. 

 

[roughshooter]

On 01/02/2022 at 08:10, rbrowning2 said:

so far you have not gone wrong, and I fully appreciate what you are trying to achieve, years back we were buying very cheap cut offs, manufactures rejects however their was a good reason it got stopped.

generally speaking steel shot cartridges need careful consideration as to the type of powder they require, if you were taking the 12gauge ones apart due to say corrosion of the rim and then making like for like again I would say carry on but not only are you wanting to guess the identity of the powder but then switch to using it in a 20gauge,  compounding the risk.

it is very unlikely lyalvale are using Maxam, given their partnership with vectan, but yes not impossible.

If you have a lot of the powder then use the proof house to test some 20ga loads would be the safest way to proceed.

edited to add

or why not phone lyalvale and ask them for the powder type, their are good people working their.
 

Although Express have a partnership with Vectan they do use Maxam powders regularly. All the original Express steel loads were manufactured using CSB0 powder. The cartridge manufacturers regularly swap and change powders depending on availability

[roughshooter]

When I first started reloading then this forum was the place to come for advice. A friendly bunch of fellow minded shooters who were always here with words of wisdom. The ability to ask any question, without sounding like a numpty was particularly helpful.

if the new reloader is to be humiliated by asking a question then they will not ask and could actually end up harming themselves.

That powder is more than likely PSB2 and I would have done a density test and tried it in a lead load using regular data but that is me and I still have all my fingers….

[rbrowning2]

1 hour ago, roughshooter said:

When I first started reloading then this forum was the place to come for advice. A friendly bunch of fellow minded shooters who were always here with words of wisdom. The ability to ask any question, without sounding like a numpty was particularly helpful.

if the new reloader is to be humiliated by asking a question then they will not ask and could actually end up harming themselves.

That powder is more than likely PSB2 and I would have done a density test and tried it in a lead load using regular data but that is me and I still have all my fingers….

I take on board what you are saying and probably targeted at me!
 

glad you still have your fingers….  Unfortunately the op has not stated the amount of powder in the 12ga 21gm steel cartridge,

however I would not expect psb2 to be used given the 21gm payload, I have also used Vectan A24 and as far as is reasonable to tell from the photo the A24 also looks identical.  PSB2 was also about in grey would you still be confident “it is more than likely” psb2 if the photo showed a grey powder?

then look at it the other way, assume PSB2 and then seek out the load data for steel shot in 20ga first, for if you find none then it matters not if it is psb2 unless experienced enough to scratch build a cartridge.

for somebody new to reloading asking such a question, the sensible advice has to be follow known load data, don’t guess.

 

 

Edited February 2, 2022 by rbrowning2

[rbrowning2]

As a addictive skeet shooter use to use a lot of vectan A24 for practice, prior to competitions, made a nice cartridge.

 

[roughshooter]

Irrespective of what the powder looked like I would do a density check to see how much powder was in the original cartridges (sample of a few for verge weight) no then would consult my reference data. If I was concerned the. I would scrap it but if reasonably confident then I would test a few loads but of course it would depend how much powder there was. For 1/2 a kg then it would not be worth bothering with. If it was 12Kg drum then I would work up some loads. I was recently offered 12kg drums of GM3GV. This is an old powder that is sealed nicely in the containers and is fine to use. However it is commercial powder with a burn rate between GM3BD and GM3 Special. If I was to buy this powder then I would start load development knowing that it is slightly slower burning than GM3BD and would need a little more powder to get it going.

the observation about the forum was a general observation and not directly aimed at yourself.

It is interesting to look at old reloading books sometimes. The original shooting times paperback book on reloading devotes a chapter to cartridge development and how to build a load. Well worth a read…

Edited February 2, 2022 by roughshooter

[mellors]

22 hours ago, rbrowning2 said:

I take on board what you are saying and probably targeted at me!
 

glad you still have your fingers….  Unfortunately the op has not stated the amount of powder in the 12ga 21gm steel cartridge,

however I would not expect psb2 to be used given the 21gm payload, I have also used Vectan A24 and as far as is reasonable to tell from the photo the A24 also looks identical.  PSB2 was also about in grey would you still be confident “it is more than likely” psb2 if the photo showed a grey powder?

then look at it the other way, assume PSB2 and then seek out the load data for steel shot in 20ga first, for if you find none then it matters not if it is psb2 unless experienced enough to scratch build a cartridge.

for somebody new to reloading asking such a question, the sensible advice has to be follow known load data, don’t guess.

 

 

Unfortunately the op has not stated the amount of powder in the 12ga 21gm steel cartridge. 

 

Over 10 cases. 

21 grams 7.5 steel. 

17.5 grains powder. 

If it is usable then the return would be around 950 grams of powder and of course primers. 

As said the forum is a place to ask questions and learn. We all have experience and information on wide range of things. 

 

Edited February 3, 2022 by mellors
Typo

[rbrowning2]

QED 17.5grains of powder, 21gm steel shot then 99.9% certain not psb2