Wild Justice

[Mice!]

9 hours ago, Scully said:

There you go then; you’re shooting on land which isn’t yours to ‘protect’ crops which aren’t yours. For sport. 
Game shooters shoot for the same purpose, for sport.
Yes, there is a very small element which make us all look bad, and threaten to spoil it for everyone, and I too will criticise if needs be, but you just don’t like game shooting and game shooters in general, and just like the antis try to tar us all with the same brush.
Game shooting contributes I would think, the vast majority of money which makes up the wealth of the shooting industry; there are people whose livelihoods depend on it, small village pubs which thrive in the shooting season and the money visitors spend in them. There are small independent hotels which depend on the shooting seasons, hoards of beaters going out for the love of the sport ( let’s face it, it isn’t for the money ) both old and young, the latter getting a toe in the door of what hopefully will instil a love of the sport and the outdoors in general, and all you can do is moan moan moan. We spent nigh on two thousand pounds in the village pub after beaters day. 
I get sick and tired of your hypocritical ( and it has to be said )  oft times incomprehensible rants, especially when you’re involved in shooting birds for fun, just like the rest of us. 

The financial and community side should be what the shooting orgs promote,  like you say no one beats for money, it's for the network of friends or to work their dogs.

Game shooters on big estates are just that, shooters who want challenging birds, but the big estates need to be whiter than white, how people are still dumping shot birds or killing BOP in this day and age is beyond me and will always tarnish shooting as a whole.

 

[Rim Fire]

11 hours ago, Scully said:

Personally I can’t see what other reason game ( or any other quarry in fact ) is shot for, other than for fun or enjoyment; I just don’t get that remark at all. 
I agree game should be eaten, and of the shoots I’m involved with where the numbers are significant, the proceeds are put in a chiller and a game dealer collects them. What happens to them after that I have no idea, but they are collected. 
Unless you’re a gamekeeper or professional pest controller, why does anyone shoot anything if not for entertainment? 
The smiles on the faces after each drive, of those guns who pay to shoot locally, are huge!
At the end of one particularly impressive drive as I dropped down the hill to collect a guns cartridges, turned to me and said. ‘That was absolutely ******* awesome!’ which surprised me somewhat admittedly, as he wasn’t a young bloke, but it’s typical of the kind of comment we often hear. 
Why would anyone do it if they didn’t enjoy it? 
I shot a left and right on beaters day, on that same drive, and was ecstatic. A mate on the next peg folded up dead in the air a partridge which was travelling like an Exocet, and it made his day! 
We often share a hide and are equally thrilled when we pull off impressive shots. Why wouldn’t we? That’s what we’re hoping for? Aren’t you? 

I know where Scully is coming from as i beat on a few shoots as a beater it is great to see a flush you then hold and watch the birds climb up to a good height 

to see one fold in the air you can hear the beating line say Jesus that was a good shot then after the drive you can tell who shot it he will have the biggest smile all over his face i have even heard one gun say if i don't hit anything the rest of the day that's made my day and to be honest who shoots so you can put food on the table anymore 

[islandgun]

Wj aim is to get the majority of the British voting public to believe that all field/blood sports are cruel and detrimental to the environment. Once this is achieved all political parties will be beside themselves in the haste to get them banned.. I think the UK would be the first place in the world to implement a ban.  Countryside organisations need to prove that field sports are beneficial, if not [and your young enough] then check out shooting holidays abroad, America and NZ perhaps.😉

[bostonmick]

2 hours ago, islandgun said:

  Countryside organisations need to prove that field sports are beneficial

Well shooting game is definitely in danger if your waiting for this to happen

[PeterHenry]

17 hours ago, enfieldspares said:

Fight the enemy using his own weapons! If, as they do, WJ say that pheasants aren't "native" the as other say they must be livestock. No different in law from free range chickens. Or "park deer". And with that there is by extension no need for close seasons and all of that. As a man or woman can do pretty much what he or she wants with his or her livestock...including asking his or her friends to kill them or pay to kill them.

Be careful what you wish for - my understanding and experiance of slaughtering livestock is that while you are correct that you can do it yourself (or ask someone else to) the dead animal (ir any part of it) cant leave the boundaries of the holding.

[PeterHenry]

14 hours ago, Mice! said:

The financial and community side should be what the shooting orgs promote,  like you say no one beats for money, it's for the network of friends or to work their dogs.

Game shooters on big estates are just that, shooters who want challenging birds, but the big estates need to be whiter than white, how people are still dumping shot birds or killing BOP in this day and age is beyond me and will always tarnish shooting as a whole.

 

 

3 hours ago, islandgun said:

Wj aim is to get the majority of the British voting public to believe that all field/blood sports are cruel and detrimental to the environment. Once this is achieved all political parties will be beside themselves in the haste to get them banned.. I think the UK would be the first place in the world to implement a ban.  Countryside organisations need to prove that field sports are beneficial, if not [and your young enough] then check out shooting holidays abroad, America and NZ perhaps.😉

Just as its broadly relevent to both your posts, and a issue I feel strongly about - this is the text of a letter I wrote to the Field (published in the current edition) - I'm in my early 30's and I feel very strongly that this is the only way forward if we are going to protect our sport in one form or another for those who are my age, and for future generations.

Dear Sirs,

I write this as a member of BASC who is supportive and enthusiastic of their aims - I did not join for insurance, but to support a voice for shooting - much the same reason that I subscribe to the GWCT. However, it has occurred to me lately that there is perhaps something that is being missed in the way of campaigning terms.

While it is undeniably vital to reinforce the link between shooting and food, and to also shout loudly about the environmental benefits best practice brings - we also need to pay attention to the culture that underpins us. Field sports as they are now, form part of an unbroken line as old as man itself. Art, cuisine, literature, way of dress, our own terminology - field sports are not singular activities, but part of a world in the round. And as has been demonstrated successfully by those who wish to do us harm, when you remove an activity such as shooting from the context that gives it meaning and provides justification, and instead provide a new context - 'killing for fun' or perhaps through even more disingenuous emotionally loaded and simplistic terms such as 'murder' - you can turn the public against us.

I read a lot of comments online that can be summed up in essence as 'we need to take the fight to the other side'. Often I see people advocating the use of the United Nations Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous Peoples. Unfortunately that is not a relevant legal instrument in regards to the outcome we all want. It is difficult when we seek to only defend what we already have. Organisations often tend to harp on about tradition - but in 2021 / 2022 this is a polarising word. Culture is not. While I am fond of tradition, if we sought to demonstrate to those outside of our bubble that we are but one activity inside a whole living culture of related activities - effectively a whole world and a rich, nuanced and varied one at that, then that, as I see it, is our greatest weapon. Rights that exist only on paper are just as flimsy, but rights underpinned by shared culture and accepted by society at large will weather any storm - it is for that we must all strive.

[islandgun]

1 minute ago, PeterHenry said:

Be careful what you wish for - my understanding and experiance of slaughtering livestock is that while you are correct that you can do it yourself (or ask someone else to) the dead animal (ir any part of it) cant leave the boundaries of the holding.

Agreed, self slaughtered meat cannot be sold 

 

13 minutes ago, bostonmick said:

Well shooting game is definitely in danger if your waiting for this to happen

true, but there are other organisations besides shooting orgs, that can see benefits derived from shooting and its land management

2 minutes ago, PeterHenry said:

 

Just as its broadly relevent to both your posts, and a issue I feel strongly about - this is the text of a letter I wrote to the Field (published in the current edition) - I'm in my early 30's and I feel very strongly that this is the only way forward if we are going to protect our sport in one form or another for those who are my age, and for future generations.

Dear Sirs,

I write this as a member of BASC who is supportive and enthusiastic of their aims - I did not join for insurance, but to support a voice for shooting - much the same reason that I subscribe to the GWCT. However, it has occurred to me lately that there is perhaps something that is being missed in the way of campaigning terms.

While it is undeniably vital to reinforce the link between shooting and food, and to also shout loudly about the environmental benefits best practice brings - we also need to pay attention to the culture that underpins us. Field sports as they are now, form part of an unbroken line as old as man itself. Art, cuisine, literature, way of dress, our own terminology - field sports are not singular activities, but part of a world in the round. And as has been demonstrated successfully by those who wish to do us harm, when you remove an activity such as shooting from the context that gives it meaning and provides justification, and instead provide a new context - 'killing for fun' or perhaps through even more disingenuous emotionally loaded and simplistic terms such as 'murder' - you can turn the public against us.

I read a lot of comments online that can be summed up in essence as 'we need to take the fight to the other side'. Often I see people advocating the use of the United Nations Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous Peoples. Unfortunately that is not a relevant legal instrument in regards to the outcome we all want. It is difficult when we seek to only defend what we already have. Organisations often tend to harp on about tradition - but in 2021 / 2022 this is a polarising word. Culture is not. While I am fond of tradition, if we sought to demonstrate to those outside of our bubble that we are but one activity inside a whole living culture of related activities - effectively a whole world and a rich, nuanced and varied one at that, then that, as I see it, is our greatest weapon. Rights that exist only on paper are just as flimsy, but rights underpinned by shared culture and accepted by society at large will weather any storm - it is for that we must all strive.

Very well said.. it would be good to see your letter published elsewhere

[JohnfromUK]

The real problem here is that WJ have nothing to loose other than money - and they know they can draw on a large support support base to support 'anti cruelty' actions.  Dress up shooting as 'cruel' to animals/birds .......... and the money will flow in.  Therefore these challenges will continue, the lawyers will have a nice steady income, and eventually all fieldsports will be made more and more difficult and bureaucratic.  Many of the challenges so far have resulted in considerable additional 'licensing' activity via DEFRA (who were forced into it by WJ's legal actions).

For example, our small shoot is near an SAC (conservation) site - and for the first time this year we have had to fill in forms with details on area of pens, release numbers and locations - and release within stock density guidelines (not in itself a problem to us as we are a very small shoot and were already well within the numbers guidelines).  It made a lot of extra unnecessary work - we have been able to do exactly as we always have - but had to do a lot of extra paperwork.  DEFRA have also had to do a lot of work setting up the schemes - and presumably monitoring and policing the schemes to ensure people comply.  Just a lot more unnecessary work all round to achieve what has been happening for many years past.  What a waste of everyone's time!

[Vince Green]

16 hours ago, Mice! said:

The financial and community side should be what the shooting orgs promote,  like you say no one beats for money, it's for the network of friends or to work their dogs.

Game shooters on big estates are just that, shooters who want challenging birds, but the big estates need to be whiter than white, how people are still dumping shot birds or killing BOP in this day and age is beyond me and will always tarnish shooting as a whole.

 

This /\

if the shot birds are not going for food then they can't be said to be livestock and Packham and his cronies will be proved right in what they are claiming.

Edited February 9, 2022 by Vince Green

[Scully]

1 hour ago, Vince Green said:

This /\

if the shot birds are not going for food then they can't be said to be livestock and Packham and his cronies will be proved right in what they are claiming.

You’re assuming they’re not going for food. 

[old man]

On 08/02/2022 at 15:40, enfieldspares said:

It depends on what Carrie and her mates tell Johnson to classify them as...

The political decisions made have always and will always be skewed by hidden interference behind the scenes by bed mates of some description? most are financially rewarded in some way? Lobbyists anonymous?

[redial]

On 08/02/2022 at 14:21, ShootingEgg said:

Have to agree with you here Scully, the amount of money it generates and the livelyhoods of many it contributes towards would be an absolute nightmare if anything is to happen in the future.  We can all get on our soap box and rant and rave about the bad and ugly, but we All shoot for sport, even crop protection is sport, you're testing yourself against the pigeon the rook the carrian..  just happens at this time you are carrying out a service to the land owner.  

 

I can't stand it if a beater or picker hold a bird by one leg and it's other and both wings flop all over the place. And I will call them out on a day for doing it. Respect for the quarry is high on my list, also a photo by an anti of some one dangling a dead bird by one leg will always get the media in a frenzy 

A little like this.

I don't know what Eley were thinking about.

[ShootingEgg]

2 hours ago, redial said:

A little like this.

I don't know what Eley were thinking about.

It looks awful and imo lacks respect.

[mel b3]

2 hours ago, redial said:

A little like this.

I don't know what Eley were thinking about.

 

12 minutes ago, ShootingEgg said:

It looks awful and imo lacks respect.

Please excuse my ignorance gents , but what's wrong with the picture ?. It's something that I've never heard of being a problem before.  I usually carry dead birds head up , but that's purely for ease of carriage. 

[Scully]

3 minutes ago, mel b3 said:

 

Please excuse my ignorance gents , but what's wrong with the picture ?. It's something that I've never heard of being a problem before.  I usually carry dead birds head up , but that's purely for ease of carriage. 

I wasn’t going to say anything because folk think I just want to argue about everything for arguing sake; I don’t, I just have differing views. 
I talked to a game dealer many many years ago who told me that all game, and especially fowl, should be carried by the feet/legs head down as they all have very basic digestive systems ( again especially wild fowl ) which meant any fluids in the stomach drained out rather than sat there fermenting. I don’t know if he’s correct, but he’ll certainly know more than I about such things, and every animal beast and bird I’ve ever seen hanging in a slaughterhouse or butchers, has been hung head down. 
It doesn’t matter to me which way they’re carried; they’ve just been blasted out of the sky and bounced hard on the ground! 🤷‍♂️

[WalkedUp]

I think we may care more about the traditional presentation of the bird than antis do. They probably find the disrespectful part to be shooting the bird in the first instance. I was trying to recall a situation where I carry birds by the legs but struggled to recall initially... If I’ve shot a single bird walked up I will strap it across me by one leg and the head, but that is because I am not some feeble beggar that requires an army of paid assistants to go out and shoot, I do it myself and go through heavy ground. 

[Vince Green]

3 hours ago, Scully said:

You’re assuming they’re not going for food. 

The story I hear is that its harder and harder to find anyone who will buy them. Same with rabbits and pigeons. Don't under estimate the seriousness of this situation. If they are being sold into the food chain you are reaping the wild harvest. Sustainable food, etc

If they are not you are liable to be portrayed as  a sick old weirdo who takes pleasure in killing for the sake of it by people who are implacably opposed to everything you stand for. Its like dropping your trousers and bending over for them

Edited February 9, 2022 by Vince Green

[clangerman]

8 minutes ago, WalkedUp said:

I think we may care more about the traditional presentation of the bird than antis do. They probably find the disrespectful part to be shooting the bird in the first instance. 

far from it the local anti is often in the company of others not ONCE has any of them objected to crop protection it just suits some to claim they are against all shooting to save their own sinking ship 

[Scully]

15 minutes ago, clangerman said:

far from it the local anti is often in the company of others not ONCE has any of them objected to crop protection it just suits some to claim they are against all shooting to save their own sinking ship 

Whose ship is sinking? 

[Scully]

25 minutes ago, Vince Green said:

The story I hear is that its harder and harder to find anyone who will buy them. Same with rabbits and pigeons. Don't under estimate the seriousness of this situation. If they are being sold into the food chain you are reaping the wild harvest. Sustainable food, etc

If they are not you are liable to be portrayed as  a sick old weirdo who takes pleasure in killing for the sake of it by people who are implacably opposed to everything you stand for. Its like dropping your trousers and bending over for them

We are already portrayed by those who oppose us, as weirdos who kill for the sake of it. 
As I’ve already said, on those shoots I know of, all shot birds are collected by a game dealer. 
Rabbits go for pet food; I have no idea about pigeons as I’ve never sold any to a dealer. Those I shoot are breasted and taken home for dog food, some remain whole for ferrets. 

[bone]

This year I have taken loads of pheasants and partridge from a friend because the game dealer does not want the birds.  I crown them, thigh meat are given to the dogs.

[mel b3]

2 hours ago, Scully said:

I wasn’t going to say anything because folk think I just want to argue about everything for arguing sake; I don’t, I just have differing views. 
I talked to a game dealer many many years ago who told me that all game, and especially fowl, should be carried by the feet/legs head down as they all have very basic digestive systems ( again especially wild fowl ) which meant any fluids in the stomach drained out rather than sat there fermenting. I don’t know if he’s correct, but he’ll certainly know more than I about such things, and every animal beast and bird I’ve ever seen hanging in a slaughterhouse or butchers, has been hung head down. 
It doesn’t matter to me which way they’re carried; they’ve just been blasted out of the sky and bounced hard on the ground! 🤷‍♂️

In all honesty,  I never really have anything hanging around for long anyway . Most game that I take myself (or get given), is butchered and in the freezer on the day that it's killed. I was just a bit puzzled why a couple of guys saw carrying birds by their feet a problem  .

[JohnfromUK]

In my youth, 'game' birds (pheasant, partridge, duck) were carried and hung head up.  Turkeys were always carried and hung head down.  The reason was the 'humane killer' then used on turkeys broke the neck - and the heavy body was too much for the broken neck.  Also, the blood drained towards the head, and left the meat whiter (or so it was said).  I think this was also followed at butchers, game dealers and poulterers shops where you could see the birds hanging.

[WalkedUp]

The biggest faux pas would be for a gun to admonish a beater. If that were one of my guns I would be pulling him aside and giving him a clip round the ear hole or requesting he slips his gun for the rest of the day. The keeper may correct a beater but it is in poor taste to do it in a discourteous manner.

[captainhastings]

Can't be leave any one actually cares which way up a bird is being carried on a cartridge box in case it offends any one. Also don't see why we should kowtow to the people against our various sports for fear of offending or upsetting them. There minds are made up. I used be able to walk through the village with a few rabbits on my shoulder. I tried it a few years back with a shovel ferret and lurcher and got stopped by the police with in twenty minutes as some one reported me. Police lady was good as gold and said you know what some people are like. Wife had the car at the time so shanks pony it was that day. Sad sad times for the country sports. My grandson was born this week bless him and do hope I get to show him the country sports like longnetting and ferreting plus all the joys of shooting before it all goes out the window. Oh and fishing the list is endless