Driven shooting cost

[Walker570]

Most of the driven days I shoot is no overage charge and it is up to the keeper to organise how many birds he puts over the guns and keep a check on shots fired.

I must admit I have not met many shooters who stop shooting halfway through a drive, if any.  Such behaviour is disgusting.  This last season we shot up at Oteley near Ellesmere and what a day. Mainly partridges and at the end of the day we had a fair number over the alloted bag.  We all had to put in an additional £90 to cover the excess birds and to be honest it was worth it. BUT I know one or two guns really could not afford the extra and as we had a second day there I told the organiser to keep a careful check on the numbers shotand we had hit our target by lunch time.  the owner said he had a drive right out on the outskirts where he was losing a few birds and would drive that back and he would not charge us for any birds shot which was very generous.  Needless to say I am booked there again this season.

[benbobailey]

14 hours ago, Old farrier said:

So it’s increased demand that’s pushing the price up not increased costs?

Yes, exactly! You asked if it costs more to rear pheasants on a high bird shoot, knowing the costs are more or less the same. Shooting prices are obviously facing higher costs and this leads to increases all over.However, high bird shoots can charge more because they are in relative short supply with increasing demand. All forms of business wish to make as much profit as possible, and good luck to them. I, unfortunately, am a bargain bucket shopper but that's life. Regards

[marsh man]

Deep down if helping out on a days shooting is something we like doing then the payment is not a big issue ( for some of us ) , I have known a lot of the old hands for many years and the same ones turn up year after year and to be honest it wouldn't be the same without them , alright we have a little moan now and again , more so if we are running late and the owner want to do the last drive even though they have had a good day and the light is beginning to go quick in the days running up to Christmas.

With the recent accident where some poor beater died after the trailer they were on overturned in Scully's neck of the woods , this alone could create more health and safety measure's and possibly bring the helpers in the limelight if they are classed as temporary employees, or what ever they would be classed as ? , then you move on to insurance , do the owner , or person running the shoot have to have , or take out insurance to cover any accident the helpers might have in the time they are employed during the days shoot ?

We know it is a Grey area but accidents do happen from time to time and how many know whats what when it comes to claiming for the accident they or anyone else have had ? not very many I would have thought .

[Scully]

13 hours ago, Lloyd90 said:

Yes, and then if they don’t shoot the full 100 will moan.
 

Some keepers then scrambling around to try and add an extra drive, and keeping the beaters and others late.

 

If they shoot over the 100 they then don’t want to pay for the extra birds.

 

 

 

£45 for 8-9 hours. 😮 

 

Imagine if all the people involved had to be properly paid at least minimum wage.
 

How people would moan about the cost per bird then.  

Quite. Even worse if some can’t shoot! 🙂

[London Best]

Had a phone call this afternoon from the proprietor of a shoot where I took a team last year for a 150 bird day for £6,000.........£40/bird. The bag was 165 with no overage. 
He has done his costing  for next season and the price is going up to £50/bird, so the same day would cost £7,500.
Ouch!
25% increase, just like my income....not!

[Walker570]

Everywhere has gone up a bit but shopping around you can still find a good day.   150 bird days in Cambridgeshire for around £40 a bird  9 guns.  Not surprisingly these days fill up very quickly.

100 bird day at Prestwold Hall inc breakfast 11s and a picnic lunch, tea and cakes afterwards. Gun bus transport.  £41 a bird    sold out in a week.

Edited February 21, 2022 by Walker570

[drivendays]

It’s still doable 

 

I host a number of “affordable” days in Yorkshire. For example 

 

pegs on a 100 head small bore day £375

 

150 pheasant and partridge £600

 

200 driven duck £555 

 

so it’s still clinging on 

 

 

[archi]

One of my friends has booked 2 days in Shropshire for 150 birds days with full hospitality for £5300 with predicted bag to be 180.

I snapped his arm off for some pegs as you can imagine

I think there must have been a mates rate discount applied.

[nic]

On 15/02/2022 at 06:25, Lloyd90 said:

For many years big commercial shoots have worked off the back of basically free / cheap labour, whilst looking to make profits. 
 

Getting people to come and do what is essentially a days work for free or a bit of beer money. 
 

What is madness is that many people then say “ah I just come along to work my dog, I don’t do it for the money!”. 
 

 

 

For a lot of shoots, even commercial ones, they cannot offer regular or sufficient days for anyone to do beating as a living even if they doubled the money.  It has always been pin money on top of your regular income, plus the crack of a good team.

also the whole point of a commercial enterprise is to make a profit.

Edited April 18, 2022 by nic

[Lloyd90]

45 minutes ago, nic said:

For a lot of shoots, even commercial ones, they cannot offer regular or sufficient days for anyone to do beating as a living even if they doubled the money.  It has always been pin money on top of your regular income, plus the crack of a good team.

also the whole point of a commercial enterprise is to make a profit.

I can see it justified on small DIY syndicates,  friends and family shoots, where no one is making a profit, just a few mates are shooting and dragging their mates and kids along to do a bit of Beating. 

 

The situation on commercial shoots that are run for profit just present as entirely different. 

Saying “The whole point of commercial enterprise is to make a profit” to justify paying someone £30 for coming out for 8+ hours and fulfilling a role that is essential to the running of a day. 
 

Imagine a factory owner, restaurant owner or similar turned round and said “the whole point of running my factory / restaurant is to make a profit”, and then tried to get away with paying some one £20 - £40 for a full day, where the persons role is essential to the running of the day, and then try to justify it saying that the reason the money’s so low is because they only offer the odd day? 

 

On top of that the shoot owner / keeper then pockets several hundred ££ in cash, in tips for each day. 
 

 

 

Perhaps the real crux of it is, that many of these smaller commercial shoots are just not financially viable? 🤷‍♂️
 

 

 

[cardigun]

All good points Lloyd.  On the very high bird shoots, there is a greater proportion of "wasted Birds", that are lightly pricked by poor shooting or wrong cartridges, and not picked the same day.

[Scully]

In my experience there is a multitude of reasons people go beating, but money simply doesn’t feature, unless you’re still at school and do it on a Saturday; the pay is much better than a days paper round. 
Of those adults who go, most are retired or self employed; the pay isn’t good enough for anyone to book a days holiday for those who work cards in, although one bloke does just that and drives from Lancaster to do so, but he gets loads of paid holidays. There is no incentive for him to do so as he doesn’t shoot, but still turns up to beat on beaters day. 
A mate comes if his shift patterns allow, but he wouldn’t take a day off to do so. 
Some like to exercise themselves and their dogs. It’s a fabulous way to keep fit. 
 

[Lloyd90]

8 minutes ago, cardigun said:

All good points Lloyd.  On the very high bird shoots, there is a greater proportion of "wasted Birds", that are lightly pricked by poor shooting or wrong cartridges, and not picked the same day.

On the flip side, if shoots actually had to pay people, beaters etc proper money, I imagine a lot of them would be told not to come! 
 

We have a small DIY syndicate where they drag along friends, family and whoever. 
 

No profit is made, it’s just a day out, don’t shoot many birds etc. 

 

Some of the “beaters” leave a lot to be desired but no one says anything, one perspective is that they have given up their day for free to come and try and flush some birds for us to shoot, so I am entirely grateful for their efforts in that regard. 
 

If we were running it properly however I am sure more than a few of them would be told not to come. 

[7daysinaweek]

A close friend was the keeper on a commercial shoot which I was a regular beater on for three seasons, the pay was £20 per day, however that was not overly important personally for myself. I was remunerated by the way of being allowed pigeon/vermin shooting. I was in a fortunate postion, my children being grown up and having freedom to an extent, having the ability to jiggle my shifts and book the shoot days off in advance. Not only did I beat, but spent countless hours bagging up feed, feeding, helping rebuilding pens, feeders, strimming and chain sawing out rides from the point of when my friend the keeper had taken over the somewhat 'dilapidated' shoot. I found it very therapeutic from that perspective.

My friend in my mind was very fair, he would always try and add value for the beaters and helpers by giving opportunities to work thier dogs, not only on shoot days, he would spend countles hours helping people bring their dogs on, be it getting them in pigeon hide, under a goose or a duck, gundog training.  A spot of pigeon shooting/roost shooting, vermin control also for those of us who like that.

As the shoot grew from strength to strength our keeper increasingly pushed the shoot owner to pay more for the beaters which fell on deaf ears. I have known the keeper to dip into his own pocket to pay for extra beaters who had turned up only for the owner captain to say; ' no, don't need them!', after changing his mind on the day. Have seen the keeper blue in the face with 'that man' after the guns and other beaters had left, 'giving him what for' on how he treated the beaters and helpers, the shoot owner/captain had bad morals and what a poor individual he was in my opinion. He increasingly ran that shoot on goodwill and a shoesting to a greater extent. Also the beaters day which was an excellent day was increasingly windled down by the owner/captain, reduced drives, numbers etc despite the keeper pushing for a fair day to repay the hard work of the beaters/helper/dog workers. These behaviours and communications I talk of are not 'hearsay' and over the years I was 'privy' to see and hear some of them them with my own eyes and ears. 

In the end I was given my marching orders by the shoot captain after I told him what I thought of his behaviour, I think I had made my mind up that I was on my way anyroads.  My friend the keeper left a few seasons afterwards as he felt his position had become untenable working with such a 'toxic' individual. The shoot we now have on good account by guns and beaters who have increasingly left is apparently a much poorer reflection in almost all aspects that it once was. Very sad indeed!

Getting back on track, that shoot was a few hundred bird days, partridge days, pheasant, duck and almost always got the daily limit with quality birds. The captain would push for additional day and the guns from my understanding paid 'good money' but I could not tell you the cost per bird. I left about 4/5 years ago.

As others have pointed out, the day won't be happeniong without the beaters, picker ups and helpers and from my personal experience throughout those times, people came along as they enjoyed the 'craic' and being out in the countryside with like minded souls. 

I have no idea what commercial shoots pay for purely a days beating or picking up now ?, I would think for one thing, if it was just for the money which I experienced, no one would be getting out of bed.

This is just a reflection of my own limited experience. 

[London Best]

All good points made so far. 
But , having helped run one or two “commercial” shoots, I can state categorically that the last beater any keeper or shoot captain wants is someone who is only doing it for the money. 
And, even worse in some cases, is the beater doing it just for the beater’s day. 
The beaters/pickers up really needed are the ones doing it because they want to BE there, to be part of the team, doing a good job properly to produce the best possible shooting for the guns, because it is what they DO, a way of life.

 

[Walker570]

3 hours ago, London Best said:

All good points made so far. 
But , having helped run one or two “commercial” shoots, I can state categorically that the last beater any keeper or shoot captain wants is someone who is only doing it for the money. 
And, even worse in some cases, is the beater doing it just for the beater’s day. 
The beaters/pickers up really needed are the ones doing it because they want to BE there, to be part of the team, doing a good job properly to produce the best possible shooting for the guns, because it is what they DO, a way of life.

 

100%

[marsh man]

4 hours ago, London Best said:

All good points made so far. 
But , having helped run one or two “commercial” shoots, I can state categorically that the last beater any keeper or shoot captain wants is someone who is only doing it for the money. 
And, even worse in some cases, is the beater doing it just for the beater’s day. 
The beaters/pickers up really needed are the ones doing it because they want to BE there, to be part of the team, doing a good job properly to produce the best possible shooting for the guns, because it is what they DO, a way of life.

 

I have been involved with the same shoot for nearly sixty years and the money is a help now I am retired but the enjoyment and the shooting I get is far more important to me than the few quid I get at the end of the shooting day , Our boss have the first day which is normally till late dinner and then they call it a day , on this day we don't get paid but as long as I can remember all the regular beaters and picker ups turn up , we all meet early and catch up with the gossip from the close season and the boss came and have a yarn with everyone .

Some of the perks I got and still get are morning duck flights if they do any and then I help to pick up when the duck flight is finished , plus we always have a excellent beaters day where the bag is between 100 / 150 and some years we have two .

 I also enjoy the freedom to walk anywhere on the estate , and the main one to me is the pigeon shooting , go where I want when I want and knowing no one else will be there , 

When I look at what I get get , I feel I am well paid and to be honest I very rarely hear any of our regular helpers moan about the ( wages ).

We just like what we do and hopefully it will stay that way .

[Scully]

5 hours ago, London Best said:

All good points made so far. 
But , having helped run one or two “commercial” shoots, I can state categorically that the last beater any keeper or shoot captain wants is someone who is only doing it for the money. 
And, even worse in some cases, is the beater doing it just for the beater’s day. 
The beaters/pickers up really needed are the ones doing it because they want to BE there, to be part of the team, doing a good job properly to produce the best possible shooting for the guns, because it is what they DO, a way of life.

 

This. 

32 minutes ago, marsh man said:

I have been involved with the same shoot for nearly sixty years and the money is a help now I am retired but the enjoyment and the shooting I get is far more important to me than the few quid I get at the end of the shooting day , Our boss have the first day which is normally till late dinner and then they call it a day , on this day we don't get paid but as long as I can remember all the regular beaters and picker ups turn up , we all meet early and catch up with the gossip from the close season and the boss came and have a yarn with everyone .

Some of the perks I got and still get are morning duck flights if they do any and then I help to pick up when the duck flight is finished , plus we always have a excellent beaters day where the bag is between 100 / 150 and some years we have two .

 I also enjoy the freedom to walk anywhere on the estate , and the main one to me is the pigeon shooting , go where I want when I want and knowing no one else will be there , 

When I look at what I get get , I feel I am well paid and to be honest I very rarely hear any of our regular helpers moan about the ( wages ).

We just like what we do and hopefully it will stay that way .

Good post. 

[7daysinaweek]

1 hour ago, marsh man said:

I have been involved with the same shoot for nearly sixty years and the money is a help now I am retired but the enjoyment and the shooting I get is far more important to me than the few quid I get at the end of the shooting day , Our boss have the first day which is normally till late dinner and then they call it a day , on this day we don't get paid but as long as I can remember all the regular beaters and picker ups turn up , we all meet early and catch up with the gossip from the close season and the boss came and have a yarn with everyone .

Some of the perks I got and still get are morning duck flights if they do any and then I help to pick up when the duck flight is finished , plus we always have a excellent beaters day where the bag is between 100 / 150 and some years we have two .

 I also enjoy the freedom to walk anywhere on the estate , and the main one to me is the pigeon shooting , go where I want when I want and knowing no one else will be there , 

When I look at what I get get , I feel I am well paid and to be honest I very rarely hear any of our regular helpers moan about the ( wages ).

We just like what we do and hopefully it will stay that way .

Excellent that MM. 👍

[nic]

I am retired although still do bits and bobs in the summer.  come the winter i spend my time wildfowling, in a pheasant syndicate and beating on a commercial shoot.

Do i do it for the money... no, on overtime i used to earn the days money in an hour!  

So why?   I do it for the crack, the team is a good bunch of people.  The gamekeeper whose shoot it is is a marmite character, but i get on with him.

There is also the option of a free 2 course restaurant meal at the end of the day.  

I can get ample pheasants to feed myself over the year with a couple of meals a week.

I could get some duck flighting, pigeon, vermin control, goose shooting, muntjac....Add to that a beaters day.  

A Christmas drink, did i mention the banter?   Mostly I do not have enough time to take up those offers.  

Most shoots offer something other than money.

 

If it was all about money, I would not be there.

 I would still be working full time.  

Most of the team work on shifts and come when they can.  the core of the team are retired or an arable farmer when its too wet over the winter to do much on the farm. or have similar weather dependant jobs.

 

mind you, can you put a value on all of the other bits you can get above a few quid?... i can, - priceless

 

 

Do i begrudge the fact that the gamekeeper makes a living out of the shoot.  No.  If he didn't, he would not be doing it.  

Edited April 19, 2022 by nic

[Centrepin]

When I first started beating, the pay was 10/- per day plus a bottle of beer, usually double diamond. I considered for my age that was excellent money. Easily comparable to the £4. a week I earnt when I joined the Army! 

My son now beats on a local shoot, £20 per day and no beer! Taking into account inflation I still think I was better off.

The local shoot now runs a once monthly 50 bird clay shoot to help with costs, £16 per gun, no prizes. They have no shortage of willing unpaid volunteers to set up and run the shoot. It's always oversubscribed as it's known as a hard shoot.

It's never been about the money and everyone recognises that the landowner/gamekeepers have to make a living.

 

[London Best]

2 hours ago, nic said:

I am retired although still do bits and bobs in the summer.  come the winter i spend my time wildfowling, in a pheasant syndicate and beating on a commercial shoot.

Do i do it for the money... no, on overtime i used to earn the days money in an hour!  

So why?   I do it for the crack, the team is a good bunch of people.  The gamekeeper whose shoot it is is a marmite character, but i get on with him.

There is also the option of a free 2 course restaurant meal at the end of the day.  I can get ample pheasants to feed myself over the year with a couple of meals a week.

I can get some duck flighting, pigeon, vermin control, goose shooting, muntjac....Add to that a beaters day.  A Christmas drink, did i mention the banter?   

 

If it was all about money, I would not be there.

 I would still be working full time.  

Most of the team work on shifts and come when they can.  the core of the team are retired or an arable farmer when its too wet over the winter to do much on the farm. or have similar weather dependant jobs.

 

mind you, can you put a value on all of the other bits you can get above a few quid?... i can, - priceless

 

 

Do i begrudge the fact that the gamekeeper makes a living out of the shoot.  No.  If he didn't, he would not be doing it.  

With respect, your post reads (to me) as if you are doing the beating for what you can get out of it. All those things you mention, I think should be looked upon merely as bonuses. You should be beating there because you want to do the job, not for what you can get out of it.

[clangerman]

1 hour ago, London Best said:

With respect, your post reads (to me) as if you are doing the beating for what you can get out of it. All those things you mention, I think should be looked upon merely as bonuses. You should be beating there because you want to do the job, not for what you can get out of it.

and what do you get? muddy soaking wet frozen scratched topped of by ungratefulness and chicken feed wage best of all shooting a few pige is treated like your getting the world with zero mention of all the feeding or favs YOU do for free! keeper friend has a top notch team because both he and the owner know how to treat people who are doing YOU the fav! 

[marsh man]

In a way , beating / brushing is like most sections of field sports , some will give it try and find it a lovely day out , and others will know after a few days it's not for them , you have only got to watch some of the new members who just treat it as a day out , they will um and arr and whack the odd bramble bush , they will then moan about the cold , the rain , a late dinner , poor shooting from the guns and just about every thing else , then you will get the dedicated ones , keep in line and watch what the other beaters doing , keep a smile on there face and just get on with it , when the day was finished they are already looking forward to next one .

So no one is forced to do it and if they don't like it then they don't have to come , on the other hand you can soon tell the ones who will be good team members and in time the perks will start coming there way . 

[nic]

3 hours ago, London Best said:

With respect, your post reads (to me) as if you are doing the beating for what you can get out of it. All those things you mention, I think should be looked upon merely as bonuses. You should be beating there because you want to do the job, not for what you can get out of it.

It was not meant to come across like that.  Mostly i do not have the time to take up the offers that come from the beating.

I seem to be busier after retirement than before !   🙂

It was meant to show the most shoots offer something other than just the cash, which people were moaning was insufficient.