Putin announces 'military operation' in Ukraine.

[12gauge82]

1 hour ago, Dave-G said:

If looking through Ukranian eyes yes I agree but if looking through the worlds eyes there's a big difference. Even their president agrees they cannot become part of NATO.

As one of the country's offering Ukraine the most assistance and also being amongst the most condemning of Russia we'd possibly be taking missiles by now if we'd waded in. 

 

I'd suggest if looking through anyone's eyes who was being bombed through no fault of their own. 

While I agree if we take Russia on it will paint a large target on us, but it would be doing the right thing and while I certainly don't want war, I'd happily take up arms against Russia and do my bit if it becomes necessary. 

[Walker570]

43 minutes ago, Scully said:

Really? No mention of it on the news! 

Maybe not got there yet or they have tucked it.  Full report and film on youtube.

[Weihrauch17]

2 minutes ago, 12gauge82 said:

I'd suggest if looking through anyone's eyes who was being bombed through no fault of their own. 

While I agree if we take Russia on it will paint a large target on us, but it would be doing the right thing and while I certainly don't want war, I'd happily take up arms against Russia and do my bit if it becomes necessary. 

You can't take up arms against Nuclear weapons, the west needs to wait until Putin is removed then defuse the conflict ASAP.

[clangerman]

if the cobblers on you tube passes for PROOF four helicopters were shot down there’s something wrong with peoples eye sight this propaganda rubbish needs to go in the joke section 

[12gauge82]

Just now, Weihrauch17 said:

You can't take up arms against Nuclear weapons, the west needs to wait until Putin is removed then defuse the conflict ASAP.

I think our country has gone soft, I've never known so many terrified people, both during the corona pandemic and now this. Doing the right thing is never easy, but the right thing is the right thing. 

Thank god we had men and women with courage when the Nazis tried invading Poland. 

Just now, 12gauge82 said:

I think our country has gone soft, I've never known so many terrified people, both during the corona pandemic and now this. Doing the right thing is never easy, but the right thing is the right thing. 

Thank god we had men and women with courage when the Nazis tried invading Poland. 

Forgot to add Brexit and all the fear around that to. 

[Weihrauch17]

20 minutes ago, 12gauge82 said:

I think our country has gone soft, I've never known so many terrified people, both during the corona pandemic and now this. Doing the right thing is never easy, but the right thing is the right thing. 

Thank god we had men and women with courage when the Nazis tried invading Poland. 

Forgot to add Brexit and all the fear around that to. 

I am sure the West has done an analysis of the risk of provokng a Nuclear War and concluded it is very possible. judging by Nato's response.  Putin has clearly lost the plot and owns a huge Nuclear arsenal.  You might not find that scary but I don't want my children wiping out because of Ukraine.  The Nazis couldn't deliver Nuclear Armageddon but Putin can, huge huge difference in the two scenarios.

Edited March 24, 2022 by Weihrauch17

[Mice!]

8 minutes ago, 12gauge82 said:

think our country has gone soft, I've never known so many terrified people, both during the corona pandemic and now this. Doing the right thing is never easy, but the right thing is the right thing. 

Thank god we had men and women with courage when the Nazis tried invading Poland. 

People keep saying things like this, but why now?

We didn't react like this to Yugoslavia or Iraq,  we didn't notice hardly the last two land grabs by Russia.

There are always things happening,  Yemen never gets a mention, Afghanistan was pretty much abandoned after how long?

I'm sure if Russia carry on past the Ukraine then the West will react, but this isn't the same as the Nazis, think on the Germans didn't just invade Poland. 

An interesting point was raised on Jeremy Vine this morning,  that Putin pretty much behaved while Trump was in office, because he didn't know how Trump would react, Putin obviously felt that Biden would do nothing, and he fears no one else. 

[12gauge82]

20 minutes ago, Mice! said:

People keep saying things like this, but why now?

We didn't react like this to Yugoslavia or Iraq,  we didn't notice hardly the last two land grabs by Russia.

There are always things happening,  Yemen never gets a mention, Afghanistan was pretty much abandoned after how long?

I'm sure if Russia carry on past the Ukraine then the West will react, but this isn't the same as the Nazis, think on the Germans didn't just invade Poland. 

An interesting point was raised on Jeremy Vine this morning,  that Putin pretty much behaved while Trump was in office, because he didn't know how Trump would react, Putin obviously felt that Biden would do nothing, and he fears no one else. 

I believe the vast difference between those countries you mentioned and Ukraine is the fact Ukraine is a self governing democracy, it obviously has its problems and corruption in places but at its heart it is exactly the same as us. Which is why I believe we should defend them, they are a people just like us who are fighting for the right to simply exist in peace l, if that's not worth fighting for, I really don't know what is. 

[Weihrauch17]

1 minute ago, 12gauge82 said:

I believe the vast difference between those countries you mentioned and Ukraine is the fact Ukraine is a self governing democracy, it obviously has its problems and corruption in places but at its heart it is exactly the same as us. Which is why I believe we should defend them, they are a people just like us who are fighting for the right to simply exist in peace l, if that's not worth fighting for, I really don't know what is. 

We are defending them with Billions of pounds of military training and hardware and taking refugees.  Why do you think they are doing so well?

[12gauge82]

1 minute ago, Weihrauch17 said:

We are defending them with Billions of pounds of military training and hardware and taking refugees.  Why do you think they are doing so well?

Predominantly because they have the will to be free, unlike the Afghans, which is all the more reason we should help them. 

[Weihrauch17]

We are helping them, massively.

[12gauge82]

6 minutes ago, Weihrauch17 said:

We are helping them, massively.

I absolutely agree we are, but we could do alot more. 

[Dave-G]

1 hour ago, 12gauge82 said:

I think our country has gone soft, I've never known so many terrified people, both during the corona pandemic and now this. Doing the right thing is never easy, but the right thing is the right thing. 

Thank god we had men and women with courage when the Nazis tried invading Poland. 

Forgot to add Brexit and all the fear around that to. 

Putin has threatened a first strike nuclear response, if you can't fathom what happens after that there's something clouding your judgement. fortunately there are people who DO fathom the risk.

The Nazis didn't have nukes.

[ditchman]

i think one thing is evident....and that is Russia is not up to the job using convential means....im surprised at the poor quality of the army in general...........lot of geo politicle things in play here tho'

putin doesnt want to lose...and he now knows this is not going to end well for him ...him backing down..........thats why im worried at him using the big nuc hammer.........

the only thing that is truly going to put an end to this ....is going to have to come from within Russia itself...

[12gauge82]

58 minutes ago, Dave-G said:

Putin has threatened a first strike nuclear response, if you can't fathom what happens after that there's something clouding your judgement. fortunately there are people who DO fathom the risk.

The Nazis didn't have nukes.

So what do we do if he invades Poland next, shall we leave them to it incase he uses nukes, what if he then invades Germany, France, the UK. Should we all just roll over incase a mad man with a button decides to press it, or should we confront him head on, imo if he's stupid enough to use nukes, he's very likely to do it at some point anyway, I'd rather do what's right and defend ukraine, not only helping them, but sending a very clear message to the rest of the despots in the world that we won't be intimidated. 

[Mice!]

28 minutes ago, 12gauge82 said:

So what do we do if he invades Poland next, shall we leave them to it incase he uses nukes, what if he then invades Germany, France, the UK. Should we all just roll over incase a mad man with a button decides to press it, or should we confront him head on, imo if he's stupid enough to use nukes, he's very likely to do it at some point anyway, I'd rather do what's right and defend ukraine, not only helping them, but sending a very clear message to the rest of the despots in the world that we won't be intimidated. 

But he won't or you wouldn't expect it, because then he's challenging NATO. 

Going off what the news says we are already leading the way with supplies and aid, the Ukrainians are doing well because they're getting help.

If we were going to help it had to be before Russia crossed into Ukraine, now we watch and wait.

[Weihrauch17]

1 hour ago, ditchman said:

i think one thing is evident....and that is Russia is not up to the job using convential means....im surprised at the poor quality of the army in general...........lot of geo politicle things in play here tho'

putin doesnt want to lose...and he now knows this is not going to end well for him ...him backing down..........thats why im worried at him using the big nuc hammer.........

the only thing that is truly going to put an end to this ....is going to have to come from within Russia itself...

Totally agree the more he is humiliated the more likely for Nuclear, his army is being defeated so he resorts to type by shelling civilians.  He needs to be ended from within ASAP and I am sure plans are a foot they would be mad not to remove him.

Edited March 24, 2022 by Weihrauch17

[Dave-G]

2 hours ago, 12gauge82 said:

So what do we do if he invades Poland next, shall we leave them to it incase he uses nukes, what if he then invades Germany, France, the UK. Should we all just roll over incase a mad man with a button decides to press it, or should we confront him head on, imo if he's stupid enough to use nukes, he's very likely to do it at some point anyway, I'd rather do what's right and defend ukraine, not only helping them, but sending a very clear message to the rest of the despots in the world that we won't be intimidated. They needn't bother investing in NATO.

Corrected that for you.

Nato is a DEFENCE alliance of many countries where each comes to the aid of any MEMBER country being attacked. Its purpose is not and never was a joint attack force. IF Cretin is dumb enough to attack any NATO member country a whole bunch of other NATO member countries will then jointly take on that countries defence. 

NATO's gang is bigger than Cretins gang, and members pay a very high price in defence capabilities and other commitments to join the gang. I think its also a condition of membership that no member attacks another country.

It's also unfinished business from years ago of the USSR - Ukraine was once part of it.

[Raja Clavata]

If he can't beat Ukraine militarily (helped in part by the rest of us) then he has no chance against the full force of NATO on a conventional warfare basis, not a cat in hells chance frankly.

Those calling for direct action by NATO now need to seriously ask themselves if they are prepared to die to save Ukraine and Ukrainian lives, not just die themselves but potentially the death of everyone they know and love, the end of everything they ever lived for, for eternity. And to be clear, we're not talking about the "button" being pressed and everything evaporating in an instant, we're talking about a slow and extremely excruciatingly painful death for the majority.

If the unequivocal answer to that is yes, then I can at least begin to understand the asinine point of drawing parallels between the Third Reich, Ukraine and Brexit.

In my opinion, the likelihood of him progressing beyond Ukraine even into bordering non NATO countries is much lower now, and going forward, than at the start of this war, it's even less likely for him to try it on a NATO member state. This endorses the decision not to impose a no fly zone over Ukraine as well as other direct military intervention by NATO forces to date.

Whilst he remains in power, the West need to try to provide Putin enough wiggle room to withdraw whilst maintaining some kind of face, that is in the interest of Ukraine and the rest of us. Particularly us in the UK as apparently the outcome of various gamification scenarios that result in escalation and the use of any kind of nuclear conflict show the UK as the front line on a global basis (between Russia and the US).

Under one such scenario, the NATO block falls apart within 5 minutes of the UK being hit with tactical nukes from Russia. The US is then the only credible force in NATO which has to choose between hitting back at Russia or allowing the UK to take one for the rest of the free world.

There's even a sub-scenario where the US nukes the UK in an attempt to prevent the UK independently retaliating against Russia.

The key point is that once a "corner case" is encountered things can escalate quickly, and in ways almost inconceivable prior to the immediate next step after the corner case occurring.

Thank "God" the real decision makers on our side are reading from their informed playbook rather than the BoJo version which draws parallels with Brexit.

 

 

[12gauge82]

 

I'm well aware what nato is, I'm also aware of the implications of war with Russia and the horrors of nuclear war, one only needs to look at Alexander litvinenko to realise radiation poisoning is not a nice way to go. 

All that said I believe helping Ukraine would be the right thing to do and therefore we should. 

And I'm going to leave this one at that. 

[islandgun]

Good post Raja Clavata

[Raja Clavata]

Fair enough but let's come back to this:

11 hours ago, 12gauge82 said:

I believe the vast difference between those countries you mentioned and Ukraine is the fact Ukraine is a self governing democracy, it obviously has its problems and corruption in places but at its heart it is exactly the same as us. Which is why I believe we should defend them, they are a people just like us who are fighting for the right to simply exist in peace l, if that's not worth fighting for, I really don't know what is. 

The people of Yemen, Syria, Afghanistan, DRC etc. - even Russia and China - are the same as us in the same way as the Ukrainians are in so much that they aspire for peace, individual and collective freedom, freedom of speech, freedom of choice, opportunity and access to education etc. It's the regimes and factions in their country that primarily prevent that and in some cases prior exploitation by the developed world along with recent, in a few cases ongoing, meddling by outsiders in their affairs.

This is why, objectively speaking, a verified refugee is a verified refugee regardless of where in the world they are refugees of. They should all be afforded equal rights as mandated under International Law.

To be clear, I fully support the assistance we are providing Ukraine and it's people - just merely suggesting we should perhaps not be so selective in whom we consider worthy of such assistance.

The reality is that it's a function of self interest and perception of a direct threat to our own way of life. I'm not criticising self interest either, it's a fact of life and necessity. But let's be real here...

[captainhastings]

So from the news the latest is

The US president also made headlines during his European trip, announcing any chemical attack launched by Russia in Ukraine would be met "in kind" by Nato. Though he declined to go into detail.

This now means there is a point where we will get involved which is a development. If doing the right thing puts my kids at risk then I am not for doing the right thing. If it was just me that would be different 

[Raja Clavata]

What that probably means is that the US know for certain that the Ukrainians don't have chemical weapons because whilst on it's own that statement makes it less likely Putin would use chemical weapons, it's increases the risk that Ukraine would stage something that looked like a chemical attack from Putin in order to suck the US into the conflict.

[12gauge82]

24 minutes ago, Raja Clavata said:

Fair enough but let's come back to this:

The people of Yemen, Syria, Afghanistan, DRC etc. - even Russia and China - are the same as us in the same way as the Ukrainians are in so much that they aspire for peace, individual and collective freedom, freedom of speech, freedom of choice, opportunity and access to education etc. It's the regimes and factions in their country that primarily prevent that and in some cases prior exploitation by the developed world along with recent, in a few cases ongoing, meddling by outsiders in their affairs.

This is why, objectively speaking, a verified refugee is a verified refugee regardless of where in the world they are refugees of. They should all be afforded equal rights as mandated under International Law.

To be clear, I fully support the assistance we are providing Ukraine and it's people - just merely suggesting we should perhaps not be so selective in whom we consider worthy of such assistance.

The reality is that it's a function of self interest and perception of a direct threat to our own way of life. I'm not criticising self interest either, it's a fact of life and necessity. But let's be real here...

I'm not disagreeing with that but you can't help someone who doesn't see what your doing is help. Look at Afghanistan, despite the intervention, all the training, equipment and money, the entire country fell in a couple of days, that had nothing to do with the talibans military prowess and was to do with the populations desire of how they wanted their country. 

That's what separates Ukraine and Afghanistan, the Ukrainians wish to be a free, democratic state just as the UK is, the fight they have pput up and the lives they have lost, I would suggest they've earnt our help.