Putin announces 'military operation' in Ukraine.

[ditchman]

2 minutes ago, ordnance said:

Because its on the EUs and NATOs borders, Syria and Yemen are not. its a country invading another that's resulting in ( death, destruction, misery, and suffering ) not a failed policy.  After decades of appeasing Putin they can now see that has not worked and a line has to be drawn in the sand, that line is Ukraine. The west is facing economic hardships now they but their could be far worse in the future if they do not stand up to Russia / Putin now, even the appeasers in the gutless EU can see that. 

if this war goes breast up...it will be of the gutless woke cowards in the EU......if they had done the right thing  a couple of moths ago ...things would be very fifferent now...Ukraine would be in a very strong position

[ordnance]

Quote

if this war goes breast up...it will be of the gutless woke cowards in the EU......if they had done the right thing  a couple of moths ago ...things would be very fifferent now...Ukraine would be in a very strong position.

True up to the last minute they were queuing up at Putin's door to lick his boots, they have not learned the lessons of even their own European history, the UK defence minister got it spot on. 

Quote

 Minister of Defense Great Britain Ben Wallace compared diplomatic efforts to prevent a Russian invasion of Ukraine to Adolf Hitler’s appeasement policy. Wallace said you can feel it in the air «the smell of Munich”, referring to an agreement that allowed Germany to annex the Sudetenland in 1938, but failed to prevent World War II.

 

Edited June 12, 2022 by ordnance

[Mungler]

Indeed, there are numerous direct comparisons between the present situation and the events of WW2:

1. Mad men / demonstrable psychotics

2. invasion of neighbouring countries 

3. European denial / appeasement 

4. US support (aka proxy war, apparently 😉)

5. 5th columnists everywhere 

[oldypigeonpopper]

10 hours ago, ditchman said:

if this war goes breast up...it will be of the gutless woke cowards in the EU......if they had done the right thing  a couple of moths ago ...things would be very fifferent now...Ukraine would be in a very strong position

Hello, I agree, as I said in a previous post had we all stood up to Putin when they were amassing their war machine on the Ukraine border it might have now a different out come, do people really think Putin would have started WW3 🤔

[Mice!]

26 minutes ago, oldypigeonpopper said:

Hello, I agree, as I said in a previous post had we all stood up to Putin when they were amassing their war machine on the Ukraine border it might have now a different out come, do people really think Putin would have started WW3 🤔

We were at the Leeds Armouries museum the other weekend one of my kids asked me to explain something,  it was written on the wall and I think it's was by Eisenhower, 

It said the wars after WW3 will be fought with sticks and stones.

Nobody was prepared to take the risk for the Ukraine.

[TIGHTCHOKE]

54 minutes ago, Mice! said:

It said the wars after WW3 will be fought with sticks and stones.

Nobody was prepared to take the risk for the Ukraine.

Hopefully nobody will ever take the risk!

[Rewulf]

5 hours ago, Mungler said:

Indeed, there are numerous direct comparisons between the present situation and the events of WW2:

1. Mad men / demonstrable psychotics

2. invasion of neighbouring countries 

3. European denial / appeasement 

4. US support (aka proxy war, apparently 😉)

5. 5th columnists everywhere 

1. You missed out senile old men at the helm of The World Police.
The old putin is mad theme is really wearing a bit thin now , its got about the same clout as claiming hitler only had one ball 

2. Ill give you that one, Russia is quite notorious for invading its neighbours.
Only because when the US do it , they make sure the mess is no where near their back yard, probably why they havent invaded Mexico lately..

3. Really ? Europe just doesnt fancy crippling itself economically to serve US interests, the ME and US simply cant guarantee EU energy supply, the massive price increases lately, prove this in no uncertain terms.
The level of 'appeasement' obviously doesnt extend to NOT sending heavy weapons, and lifting sanctions does it ?

4. You really have a problem with that word 😏
The only thing I can think of is that it diverts a tiny portion of blame away from your premier object of hate.
It is what it is , the US is benefitting financially and strategically from this war, its just an uncomfortable fact youre going to have to live with and accept, if you dont think its a proxy war, or proxy wars dont exist, thats fine by me.

5. Jeeezuz ! Beware the red under the bed eh ?
Where are these saboteurs , these commies ?
Nice bit of war paranoia there.

1 hour ago, oldypigeonpopper said:

Hello, I agree, as I said in a previous post had we all stood up to Putin when they were amassing their war machine on the Ukraine border it might have now a different out come, do people really think Putin would have started WW3 🤔

How would we have stood up to him ?
Send troops and hope it scared him off ?

Dont get me wrong, your question has merit.
If NATO was really positive that Russia would invade, and they had several months to funnel weapons in there, why didnt they just fast track Ukraine into NATO ?
Would Russia have attacked a NATO country ? I dont believe they would personally, but the crusty old retired generals in the west would tell you different, they would tell you the 'red' army wouldnt stop there either , and would roll right into Paris, just like their 50 year old doctrine tells them, but it would be a misinformed lie.
The fact is, IMHO , NATO/US wanted them to invade, Ukraine is the sacrificial lamb that will poison Russia for a generation, and putin walked right into the trap.

54 minutes ago, Mice! said:

Nobody was prepared to take the risk for the Ukraine.

Exactly , and why should we, what have they ever , or ever will , do for us ?
Even if it stopped right now, Ukraine will be a financial burden on us for years.

Clever manipulation has made us care for Ukraine, where before , no one gave a second thought for them.
No one cared about Iraqis, Afghans* or Syrians, who died by the 100,000 year on year.

*Except when Russians were killing them, they were noble freedom fighters then, when NATO was killing them, they were dirty insurgents.

[Mice!]

21 minutes ago, TIGHTCHOKE said:

Hopefully nobody will ever take the risk!

100%

there have obviously been wars during my lifetime,  but they have always been far away and with the exception of terrorism we are generally untouched in this country, families with service men and women are the only ones directly affected.

And it is pretty much the same for most NATO countries,  and super powers, who is going to chose to openly attack Russia,  China or the USA,  it just won't happen.

The balance is that all the big players could inflict massive damage on each other, which keeps everyone in check.

[Raja Clavata]

46 minutes ago, Rewulf said:

If NATO was really positive that Russia would invade, and they had several months to funnel weapons in there, why didnt they just fast track Ukraine into NATO ?
Would Russia have attacked a NATO country ? I dont believe they would personally, but the crusty old retired generals in the west would tell you different, they would tell you the 'red' army wouldnt stop there either , and would roll right into Paris, just like their 50 year old doctrine tells them, but it would be a misinformed lie.
The fact is, IMHO , NATO/US wanted them to invade, Ukraine is the sacrificial lamb that will poison Russia for a generation, and putin walked right into the trap.

This, for me, is the crux of the matter.

I'm not standing up for Germany or France, far from it, but this is / was a NATO rather than EU thing.

30 minutes ago, Mice! said:

And it is pretty much the same for most NATO countries,  and super powers, who is going to chose to openly attack Russia,  China or the USA,  it just won't happen.

Interesting point, behind all that is currently happening, there is another global arms race ongoing around Lethal Autonomous Weapon Systems. This hasn't fully played out yet but the West appear to believe the "others" are developing unethical AI weapon systems and believe that they can be countered through the use of ethical AI approaches. But that's probably one for another day. Topical though given the current news around Google DeepMind's "sentient!?" AI...

[Mice!]

13 minutes ago, Raja Clavata said:

Interesting point, behind all that is currently happening, there is another global arms race ongoing around Lethal Autonomous Weapon Systems. This hasn't fully played out yet but the West appear to believe the "others" are developing unethical AI weapon systems and believe that they can be countered through the use of ethical AI approaches. But that's probably one for another day. Topical though given the current news around Google DeepMind's "sentient!?" AI.

You would think there had been enough Sci- fi films made to know this never ends well.

I've also seen several videos showing the breakdown of current Fuel prices, call it £2 for a litre of diesel with probably half of that going to the government in taxes despite the price of a barrel of crude oil having been dearer in the past, the current high cost at the pump is being blamed on the conflict in the Ukraine, there are a lot of things being blamed on Russia invading even though its two countries who are involved and not all of Europe. 

[TIGHTCHOKE]

1 hour ago, Raja Clavata said:

This, for me, is the crux of the matter.

I'm not standing up for Germany or France, far from it, but this is / was a NATO rather than EU thing.

Perhaps this might just stop the stupidity of setting up an EU Army. Clearly it would never be used in anger, so forget it and strengthen NATO.

[Rewulf]

24 minutes ago, TIGHTCHOKE said:

Perhaps this might just stop the stupidity of setting up an EU Army. Clearly it would never be used in anger, so forget it and strengthen NATO.

On the contrary, they will use this as an excuse for NEEDING an EU army.
They will call it a QRF or similar , one that doesnt need wider NATO approval, and all the resolutions that go with it, costing time.
The danger of such a force, is that it wouldnt be strong enough on its own, and Im dubious of its real purpose, language and leadership divisions would mean it would be split into regional divisions, so it wouldnt be beyond the realms of believability to see it being used on unruly EU members, when its unknown if that countries own armed forces didnt have the heart.

[Mungler]

1 hour ago, Raja Clavata said:

This, for me, is the crux of the matter.

I'm not standing up for Germany or France, far from it, but this is / was a NATO rather than EU thing.

 

 

It is odd that of all the rabid pro Europe types I know, not one of them can find any other EU country to have done anything wrong or to have taken any misstep in all of this.

And now the suggestion that it's a NATO thing - would that be the NATO stuffed full of European countries or the NATO where it's all the fault / problem / obligation of the US? 

 

2 hours ago, Rewulf said:

1. You missed out senile old men at the helm of The World Police.
The old putin is mad theme is really wearing a bit thin now , its got about the same clout as claiming hitler only had one ball 

2. Ill give you that one, Russia is quite notorious for invading its neighbours.
Only because when the US do it , they make sure the mess is no where near their back yard, probably why they havent invaded Mexico lately..

3. Really ? Europe just doesnt fancy crippling itself economically to serve US interests, the ME and US simply cant guarantee EU energy supply, the massive price increases lately, prove this in no uncertain terms.
The level of 'appeasement' obviously doesnt extend to NOT sending heavy weapons, and lifting sanctions does it ?

4. You really have a problem with that word 😏
The only thing I can think of is that it diverts a tiny portion of blame away from your premier object of hate.
It is what it is , the US is benefitting financially and strategically from this war, its just an uncomfortable fact youre going to have to live with and accept, if you dont think its a proxy war, or proxy wars dont exist, thats fine by me.

5. Jeeezuz ! Beware the red under the bed eh ?
Where are these saboteurs , these commies ?
Nice bit of war paranoia there.

How would we have stood up to him ?
Send troops and hope it scared him off ?

Dont get me wrong, your question has merit.
If NATO was really positive that Russia would invade, and they had several months to funnel weapons in there, why didnt they just fast track Ukraine into NATO ?
Would Russia have attacked a NATO country ? I dont believe they would personally, but the crusty old retired generals in the west would tell you different, they would tell you the 'red' army wouldnt stop there either , and would roll right into Paris, just like their 50 year old doctrine tells them, but it would be a misinformed lie.
The fact is, IMHO , NATO/US wanted them to invade, Ukraine is the sacrificial lamb that will poison Russia for a generation, and putin walked right into the trap.

Exactly , and why should we, what have they ever , or ever will , do for us ?
Even if it stopped right now, Ukraine will be a financial burden on us for years.

Clever manipulation has made us care for Ukraine, where before , no one gave a second thought for them.
No one cared about Iraqis, Afghans* or Syrians, who died by the 100,000 year on year.

*Except when Russians were killing them, they were noble freedom fighters then, when NATO was killing them, they were dirty insurgents.

 

I imagine that back in the days of WW2 there would have been a handful of people who listened everyday to Lord HawHaw and went around telling everyone what a lovely and misunderstood chap Herr Hitler was, how he was entitled to roll into Poland and how more should have been done to sit down and negotiate with him. Also how we should be distrustful of the economic, food and military support of those nasty Yankies and how we shouldn't have been fighting the American's proxy war against Germany

 

[ditchman]

An EU Army..........HHhhahhahhahhahahhhhahaahhhahahhahhhahhhahhhaaaaaaaaaaaaaahhhhhhhhahhahhahhahhahah

just think about that.....a cohesive ....brave....active.....seemless....unitary.....single minded ..strike force...."yeah baby"

thats excactly what it would be like .........

[oowee]

1 hour ago, TIGHTCHOKE said:

Perhaps this might just stop the stupidity of setting up an EU Army. Clearly it would never be used in anger, so forget it and strengthen NATO.

Maybe an EU army could be set up to avoid the vito. of the US. It could also be established to defend Europe rather than the US. ?

[Mungler]

7 minutes ago, oowee said:

Maybe an EU army could be set up to avoid the vito. of the US. It could also be established to defend Europe rather than the US. ?

Really? Has the Carry On to hand with the Germans (still spending $1billion a day with Putin) and the French (bricking it over extended French banks lending to the Russians) shown us nothing?

Macron in charge of a EU army? Imagine there was a sticky military op with high (vote losing) anticipated casualties. Who to send, the French division or the UK division? 😆

Got to hand it to the yanks, in the face of Germany mooching on its NATO subs every year for the last decade, they spend the lions share of the money in / on NATO and so they should call the tune.

[Raja Clavata]

Oh dear, the normally somewhat confused moral absolutists really have got their knickers in a twist today 🙂 

[discobob]

An EU Army - I served in 1 BR Corps - a joint staff unit - there were a few countries that didn't work weekends - I kid you not - 🤣

[oowee]

49 minutes ago, Mungler said:

Really? Has the Carry On to hand with the Germans (still spending $1billion a day with Putin) and the French (bricking it over extended French banks lending to the Russians) shown us nothing?

Macron in charge of a EU army? Imagine there was a sticky military op with high (vote losing) anticipated casualties. Who to send, the French division or the UK division? 😆

Got to hand it to the yanks, in the face of Germany mooching on its NATO subs every year for the last decade, they spend the lions share of the money in / on NATO and so they should call the tune.

Should the EU be responsible for defending itself? 

[ditchman]

6 minutes ago, oowee said:

Should the EU be responsible for defending itself? 

they have sex with themselves ...so why not 

[Rewulf]

1 hour ago, Mungler said:

I imagine that back in the days of WW2 there would have been a handful of people who listened everyday to Lord HawHaw and went around telling everyone what a lovely and misunderstood chap Herr Hitler was

At least those few nazi sympathisers of Moselys old party, were allowed to listen to lord haw haw, which by his very name , just goes to show how little notice was taken of him ?
As far as the misunderstood hitler, again the difference was then, although he was an aggressive xenpohobic dictator, no one gave him the 'mad' moniker until the propaganda really took root ?
The real nutter we were rubbing shoulders with later , was stalin, who killed nearly as many of his people than the Germans did.

1 hour ago, Mungler said:

how he was entitled to roll into Poland and how more should have been done to sit down and negotiate with him.

The funny thing about that is , when he did invade Poland, after invading or annexing 3 other countries, we STILL did nothing, in fact , I would venture to say, we would have let him keep Poland as the price of peace.
The only problem with that , was he could see how weak and overstretched  we were, and as Ive said before , that 20 odd miles of Channel is the only reason we arent conversing in German today.

1 hour ago, Mungler said:

Also how we should be distrustful of the economic, food and military support of those nasty Yankies and how we shouldn't have been fighting the American's proxy war against Germany

As much as that aid was essential to our liberty and survival, it cost us 30 odd years of debt repayments, and its not a proxy war if they are attacked  and fight themselves.

 

6 minutes ago, oowee said:

Should the EU be responsible for defending itself? 

I thought they were a trade organisation ?

TBH , I cant think of any trade bloc since the British East India Co, that had its own army.

 

[oowee]

6 minutes ago, Rewulf said:

 

 

I thought they were a trade organisation ?

TBH , I cant think of any trade bloc since the British East India Co, that had its own army.

 

I think you are beginning to see how all this stuff links together. 

[oldypigeonpopper]

21 hours ago, Rewulf said:

1. You missed out senile old men at the helm of The World Police.
The old putin is mad theme is really wearing a bit thin now , its got about the same clout as claiming hitler only had one ball 

2. Ill give you that one, Russia is quite notorious for invading its neighbours.
Only because when the US do it , they make sure the mess is no where near their back yard, probably why they havent invaded Mexico lately..

3. Really ? Europe just doesnt fancy crippling itself economically to serve US interests, the ME and US simply cant guarantee EU energy supply, the massive price increases lately, prove this in no uncertain terms.
The level of 'appeasement' obviously doesnt extend to NOT sending heavy weapons, and lifting sanctions does it ?

4. You really have a problem with that word 😏
The only thing I can think of is that it diverts a tiny portion of blame away from your premier object of hate.
It is what it is , the US is benefitting financially and strategically from this war, its just an uncomfortable fact youre going to have to live with and accept, if you dont think its a proxy war, or proxy wars dont exist, thats fine by me.

5. Jeeezuz ! Beware the red under the bed eh ?
Where are these saboteurs , these commies ?
Nice bit of war paranoia there.

How would we have stood up to him ?
Send troops and hope it scared him off ?

Dont get me wrong, your question has merit.
If NATO was really positive that Russia would invade, and they had several months to funnel weapons in there, why didnt they just fast track Ukraine into NATO ?
Would Russia have attacked a NATO country ? I dont believe they would personally, but the crusty old retired generals in the west would tell you different, they would tell you the 'red' army wouldnt stop there either , and would roll right into Paris, just like their 50 year old doctrine tells them, but it would be a misinformed lie.
The fact is, IMHO , NATO/US wanted them to invade, Ukraine is the sacrificial lamb that will poison Russia for a generation, and putin walked right into the trap.

Exactly , and why should we, what have they ever , or ever will , do for us ?
Even if it stopped right now, Ukraine will be a financial burden on us for years.

Clever manipulation has made us care for Ukraine, where before , no one gave a second thought for them.
No one cared about Iraqis, Afghans* or Syrians, who died by the 100,000 year on year.

*Except when Russians were killing them, they were noble freedom fighters then, when NATO was killing them, they were dirty insurgents.

Hello, do the same as  Russia but on the Ukraine border, ? 

[Mungler]

This is a long read but it’s worthwhile.

https://www.atlanticcouncil.org/blogs/ukrainealert/vladimir-putins-dark-journey-from-economic-reformer-to-war-criminal/?fbclid=IwAR2EhVDWOGtp51wwC-Rai7pgnXpPIEWvncYtI7EgILE7ViB_Y4vv_mvakqw&fs=e&s=cl

[Rewulf]

2 hours ago, Mungler said:

This is a long read but it’s worthwhile.

https://www.atlanticcouncil.org/blogs/ukrainealert/vladimir-putins-dark-journey-from-economic-reformer-to-war-criminal/?fbclid=IwAR2EhVDWOGtp51wwC-Rai7pgnXpPIEWvncYtI7EgILE7ViB_Y4vv_mvakqw&fs=e&s=cl

'Many Western leaders fear what might come after Putin. They worry about the possible break-up of the Russian state or the rise of an even less predictable dictator in his place. However, few scenarios are more alarming than a continuation of Russia’s current descent into full-scale fascism under an increasingly isolated and unhinged Putin. He is already the greatest single threat to global security and will likely remain so until he loses power. The West should not be afraid of pursuing this objective.  '

What an err, lovely balanced piece of journalism.

 

About the Atlantic Council

'Driven by our mission of “shaping the global future together,” the Atlantic Council is a nonpartisan organization that galvanizes US leadership and engagement in the world, in partnership with allies and partners, to shape solutions to global challenges.'

So a completely biased journo , writes on a biased website, funded primarily by western governments and NATO, it should really state what it is when its doing its very frequent glowing reports on NATO funding and operations, but then, it doesnt have to , as no one is going to pull them up over it , but the Atlantic council is NOT an independent think tank in any way , shape or form.
Its NATOs personal blog.