Lee Enfield No.4

[Newbie to this]

Hi,

As soon as my renewal lands, I'm in the market for a Lee Enfield No.4. 

Upon having a look, I see that they come with 2 groove or 5 groove barrels.

Does anyone have any knowledge on the pros and cons of the two different groovings?

Thanks in advance

[enfieldspares]

They also came with six grooves! Two groove will be cheaper to buy although you'd maybe now struggle to find one. What really matters is that the throat isn't eroded and the rifling at the muzzle also isn't. Then that the chamber isn't too far oversize. The two grove was a wartime expedient as it was cheaper to make. These are the times of cut rifling not hammered rifled made on a former so a two groove rifle took not quite half the time to cut....but certainly less time.

[Newbie to this]

There are a few 2 groove available, I've not seen any advertised as 5 groove yet but have read that 2 and 5 are the most common.

Some are saying that 2 groove may be no good with BT bullets.

[Vince Green]

A lot of the two groove rifles were American made lease lend during WW2 by Savage and are not considered to be as good as the British made rifles. I understood it was done to keep the price down. Which tells you something about the rest of the rifle

Generally considered to be avoid if possible. 

A broad generalisation I know but I believe modern BT bullets are not as accurate as the original military spec Mk7 bullets. The Mk7 had an aluminium segment inside the nose to shift the weight towards the back. As it must have greatly increased the cost and complexity of manufacture you have to believe they wouldn't have done it without a very good reason.

Edited March 15, 2022 by Vince Green

[Scully]

Do you not fancy one of the No 4 conversions to 7.62? I’ve always thought they looked the dogs dangly bits. 

[Newbie to this]

11 minutes ago, Scully said:

Do you not fancy one of the No 4 conversions to 7.62? I’ve always thought they looked the dogs dangly bits. 

Too late now even if I wanted too, .303 is on the renewal when it arrives. Not sure I'd want to anyway.

58 minutes ago, Vince Green said:

A lot of the two groove rifles were American made lease lend during WW2 by Savage and are not considered to be as good as the British made rifles. I understood it was done to keep the price down. Which tells you something about the rest of the rifle

Generally considered to be avoid if possible. 

A broad generalisation I know but I believe modern BT bullets are not as accurate as the original military spec Mk7 bullets. The Mk7 had an aluminium segment inside the nose to shift the weight towards the back. As it must have greatly increased the cost and complexity of manufacture you have to believe they wouldn't have done it without a very good reason.

Thanks, I will be trying to buy British if possible. I was also leaning to the 5 groove barrel (if I can find one), but this was purely, more is better mentality than any knowledge, hence the question.

1 hour ago, enfieldspares said:

They also came with six grooves! Two groove will be cheaper to buy although you'd maybe now struggle to find one. What really matters is that the throat isn't eroded and the rifling at the muzzle also isn't. Then that the chamber isn't too far oversize. The two grove was a wartime expedient as it was cheaper to make. These are the times of cut rifling not hammered rifled made on a former so a two groove rifle took not quite half the time to cut....but certainly less time.

Thanks, this didn't even enter my mind, and I'd not know where to start, or what to look for, It's likely the purchase will be from Henry Kranks, as they were recommended.

[theshootist]

A timely thread as I also have a slot for .303 having really enjoyed shooting one at Bisley last summer. I like the SMLE too but the No4 seems to be more viable for competition with better sights. I have toyed with rolling the dice on one from auction and then taking it to Fultons for a rebuild. They can rebarrel them with a decent barrel if its worn. 

[Scully]

19 minutes ago, Newbie to this said:

Too late now even if I wanted too, .303 is on the renewal when it arrives. Not sure I'd want to anyway.

 

Fair enough. Nothing wrong with an original No 4. Good choice. 

[enfieldspares]

Best SMLE rifles for the money if you can find one are BSA WWII made. As WWI dated SMLE rifles always carry a premium on the price. The best No4 rifles, again only in my opinion, are the post-WWII made No4 Mk I rifles. I had a 1949 Fazackerley as by that time they are back to using real walnut and not beech and with peacetime quality control. The N04 rifles that I least liked were the No4 Mk 2 and No4 Mk 3 and, again IMHO, the repositioning of the trigger from the triggerguard made it a PITA to then sort the trigger pull if it ever needed it. What I will be listing here in the For Sale is an RCBS 4 x4 part set up for .303 British. I'll get some pictures done before the weekend. It'll be the RCBS 4x4 Auto press, correct .303 shellplate and pins, large primer cup and primer tube, Lee four die set of FL sizer, neck collect size (so no lube needed), seater/crimper die and factory crimp die together with Lee's auto powder die. It was something I was working on setting up to give semi-progressive loading but then decided not to proceed with.

[Newbie to this]

51 minutes ago, theshootist said:

A timely thread as I also have a slot for .303 having really enjoyed shooting one at Bisley last summer. I like the SMLE too but the No4 seems to be more viable for competition with better sights. I have toyed with rolling the dice on one from auction and then taking it to Fultons for a rebuild. They can rebarrel them with a decent barrel if its worn. 

Good to know, any idea how much they charge for a refurb?

[enfieldspares]

It used to be that SMLE barrels were rare as hens' teeth. Then back in the 1990s a lot were released on to the market from South Africa and No 4 barrels became scarce. I had a Ishapore 1943 rebarreled with one such. For sure I'd call Fulton and get a costing before buying. The real folk to go to back in the 1990s for SMLE and No4 rifles were Charnwood Ordnance. Fortunately living as I did and do in Leicester and having a good customer relationship with them and their ex-Army armourer Warwick Brown I got rifles that he'd checked and gauged from what he visually though were the best sample from their stock before they (mostly) were cut, welded and plugged and went into the de-act market.

Edited March 15, 2022 by enfieldspares

[Newbie to this]

33 minutes ago, enfieldspares said:

before they (mostly) were cut, welded and plugged and went into the de-act market.

What a waste.

[Vince Green]

17 hours ago, Scully said:

Do you not fancy one of the No 4 conversions to 7.62? I’ve always thought they looked the dogs dangly bits. 

The proof house now has concerns about no 4s being converted to 7.62. Although thousands were converted with no problems some of the actions developed stress cracks over time. The Lee action flexes every time it is fired because the bolt locks at the back, unlike the Mauser that locks at the front.

Edited March 16, 2022 by Vince Green

[Vince Green]

15 hours ago, enfieldspares said:

It used to be that SMLE barrels were rare as hens' teeth. Then back in the 1990s a lot were released on to the market from South Africa and No 4 barrels became scarce. I had a Ishapore 1943 rebarreled with one such. For sure I'd call Fulton and get a costing before buying. The real folk to go to back in the 1990s for SMLE and No4 rifles were Charnwood Ordnance. Fortunately living as I did and do in Leicester and having a good customer relationship with them and their ex-Army armourer Warwick Brown I got rifles that he'd checked and gauged from what he visually though were the best sample from their stock before they (mostly) were cut, welded and plugged and went into the de-act market.

Border Barrels were going to make a batch of no4 barrels but it never happened unfortunately. Years ago no4s in .303 were considered worthless. Many were deacted and quite a few were bored out to .410 shotguns to make them marketable

I have found Terry Abrams very good over the years 

[impala59]

16 hours ago, Newbie to this said:

What a waste.

Agreed! I was at an auction recently where 2 "live" .303's went for a couple of hundred and some de-acts for around £400. My brothers old DP No. 4 was snapped up by a dealer for around £250 even though it needed to be re-de-activated to bring it up to current legislation standard. Keep an eye on Holts and other auctions as often a decent "sleeper" will appear (view and check before bidding though!!)

[Imperfection]

I've got a 1950 Long branch Enfield that sat in a war surplus armoury somewhere for years. Because its 1950 it never saw any service so apart from cabinet marks its almost pristine. No idea how many grooves it has but it shoots fine with factory or homeloads.

[Mr.C]

There's someone selling a 1944 long branch on ukvarminting forum, £500  non matching numbers. 

[enfieldspares]

Heck! My first .303 was a No4(T) in its case with 'scope and 'scope box and sling and handkerchief that I paid £240 for from Aylestone Gun Company back in the late 1970s. In the late 1980s I remember going through and taking my pick from two or three dozen plus No4 rifles at a still well known Lincolcnshire gunsmiths as their market for .410 conversions had dried up when the welded magazine law was enacted by the Tories.

[Scully]

My first ( and only ) .303 was a ‘Sporterised’  SMLE Mk III, bought from West End Guns in Morecambe for the princely sum of £50.00 back in the mid’ ‘80’s. It had a Parker-Hale 5A (?) adjustable aperture rear sight and the standard issue post / wings foresight, and I had many an hour of fun with it on Warcop Range.
Bit punchy, even as an adult, but for some reason part of the appeal. 🙂

[Vince Green]

1 hour ago, Scully said:

 It had a Parker-Hale 5A (?) adjustable aperture rear sight 

 

 

Absolute gold dust now, those sights are worth as much as the rifle

I believe Gunshop at Cat Hill East Barnet, London has an SMLE WW1 dated BSA made with a 5A fitted. He is asking about £800 for it. Thats actually a fair price these days

A friend of a friend is an RFD and he sold a genuine no4 sniper rifle with proven history for £7000. Lots of fakes and copies out there but this was the real deal. Crazy prices!  

Edited March 16, 2022 by Vince Green

[Vince Green]

2 hours ago, enfieldspares said:

Heck! My first .303 was a No4(T) in its case with 'scope and 'scope box and sling and handkerchief that I paid £240 for from Aylestone Gun Company 

£7000 today if its in the original box

[enfieldspares]

I know! I weep! I also has one of the 1919 sniper rifles made on the Pattern '14 sniper rifle. From Weller and Dufty for about £600 in the 1990s.

Edited March 16, 2022 by enfieldspares

[Houseplant]

Lots of Lee Enfield rifles and similar being carried around the bush here. Not out of sentimentality, rather necessity. Some have been horribly disfigured, turned in to very short carbines and "sporterised" with plastic stocks. You're better off not seeing those pictures!

[Sweet11-87]

On 15/03/2022 at 18:13, Newbie to this said:

Thanks, this didn't even enter my mind, and I'd not know where to start, or what to look for, It's likely the purchase will be from Henry Kranks, as they were recommended.

ahh good old crankies, all the black powder lads i know go to them. massive catalogue, none of it in stock and be prepared to wait for it to be. Rumour has it all the muzzleloader stuff they get in was cutting edge when it was originally ordered.

[Newbie to this]

6 hours ago, Sweet11-87 said:

ahh good old crankies, all the black powder lads i know go to them. massive catalogue, none of it in stock and be prepared to wait for it to be. Rumour has it all the muzzleloader stuff they get in was cutting edge when it was originally ordered.

Funny you should say that, it was a black powder shooter that suggested them.