HULL SUPERFAST

[Lever357]

I know the price of cartridges has been discussed but here are some figures for Hull Superfast fibre.

I bought 1000 in June last year for £207. A few weeks later I was in a different gun shop and they were asking £229. I mentioned it to a friend of mine and he rang a local shooting ground - they had 7000 at £209 and the next lot was going to be £236 when they came in. We bought the 7000 and split them between a few of us. 

That same shop is now selling them for £254 and a famous online only seller is charging £271!!!!

That's nearly a 25% increase in 8 months!!! And we know they will never come down in price.

[Poor Shot]

Vote with your feet and move onto a new cartridge that suits what you are willing to pay. 

The only way that we'll be able to get this across to the manufacturers is when they start to see the amount of bulk orders from RFDs slowing down because the RFD still has 10s of thousands of carts left unsold on their shelves. 

I moved from Eley to Fiocchi and then to Cheddite cartridges from different RFDs because the price rises were getting ridiculous. Eley Selects went from sub £200 per thousand to £230+. Fiocchi TT1s and Litespeeds went from sub £200 per thousand to £220+ (And were junk, only cartridges that I've ever had issues with). Now the Cheddite Universal Trap cartridges have risen from £220 per thousand to £234 on the last batch I ordered. 

I received my SGC in July last year to give you an indication of the timescale of these rises. 

[SainIT]

I'm in Italy and buy from a very large gunshop near me. Cheddite Smart Strike 28g (the only cartridge that i use) went up from £177 to £208 from February this year. I actually expected your prices to be higher due to transport costs. The problem is apparently the cost of lead from China but I think the manufacturers are trying to make up for the Covid loss of sales.

[Poor Shot]

3 minutes ago, SainIT said:

I'm in Italy and buy from a very large gunshop near me. Cheddite Smart Strike 28g (the only cartridge that i use) went up from £177 to £208 from February this year. I actually expected your prices to be higher due to transport costs. The problem is apparently the cost of lead from China but I think the manufacturers are trying to make up for the Covid loss of sales.

On the price list I have been sent from the RFD I've been buying the Cheddite from, the Smart Strike 28G Fibre are £285 per thousand. 

I accept that there will be some added costs due to shipping, currency differences and import arrangements etc but not £70+ per thousand. As per usual, we are being ripped off. The RFD claims to earn a few % from each thousand sold so I suspect that the manufacturers are real issue. 

[Fellside]

It’s a volume business with enormous import/supply pressures - so no one in the supply chain is making a killing. The top UK cartridge companies only make a profit of circa 2 million pounds a year - so they aren’t exactly Glaxo. 

If cheapie clay bangers have gone up by 3p a pop, it’s not a deal breaker. Relative to average income, they’ve never been so affordable. Although I appreciate there are many additional pressures on income currently.

Game cart’s on the other hand, even though produced in less volume, are a well known rip off. For example, I can buy a decent 1 oz fibre clay load with 7 1/2 shot for say £270/1000. The same product with a pheasant picture on the box, a different name stamped on the cart’ and with size 6 shot inside, would be close on £400/1000. Rant ends. 

[8 shot]

4 hours ago, Poor Shot said:

4 hours ago, Poor Shot said:

The RFD claims to earn a few % from each thousand sold so I suspect that the manufacturers are real issue.

I was not too many years ago given by accident, the wholesale price list for RC cartridges, buying at £200ish/1000 selling for £260/1000

 

[Fellside]

1 hour ago, 8 shot said:

 

That’s about inline with the cartridge retail margins I’ve heard of: 15% + VAT. 

[Lever357]

3 hours ago, 8 shot said:

 

I was on Malmo Guns website last year and on one of their price lists they had the trade price on - it was more than £70 cheaper than retail. And there's no money in cartridges!!

[Fellside]

26 minutes ago, Lever357 said:

I was on Malmo Guns website last year and on one of their price lists they had the trade price on - it was more than £70 cheaper than retail. And there's no money in cartridges!!

Out of that £70 margin the VAT will be anything from £40 to £60. I wouldn’t like to make a living selling cart’s alone - unless shifting massive volumes. 

[maxwell]

I have just payed £227 for super fast 7 1/2  plastic and £273 for super fast 29g #6 fibre, my local RFD is asking £307 for 29g#6 fibre, apparently this is the new price rise from the factory 

[Centrepin]

Having recently decided to change RFDs due to many reasons my next choice only sells two types of Hull and is not willing to order anything else. Its also 28gram or take a hike, whatever happened to 21/24gram? He only sells Eley rifle ammunition also. On initial enquiry he told me current Comp X and Superfast are priced by slab no discount for more and £79/£89 respectively. Hull pigeon are currently £99 per slab.

Even given the current cost of fuel I'm going to be better off taking a 2 hour drive from Sheffield to Alford buying 4000 of my choice plus 2000 .22LR  and driving back. Approximately £1000 plus 4 gallons of fuel. Or around £1500 from my local man. Shop local indeed!

All I need now is a £1000🥴

[Sweet11-87]

could be a million and one things as to why theyre getting so expensive. covid, brexit, raw materials.

ive started to belive that the big 5 names hull,eley,fiocchi,lylvale and gamebore arnt competing for the market like they would have us belive.  i just put it down as a conspiricy theory at first but  im starting to think its a bit of collusion is going on.  they all sell the same things and its seems its all made not to step on each others toes.   clay carts are 28g of 7.5  maximum and pigeon are 29g of 6 minimum.    plently of people shoot pigeons with clay carts, and as far as im aware the rules for clays are no bigger than 2.6mm or english 6 and no heavier than 28g....

whys nobody pushing  70mm low brass  28g of 6 or 7? as a cost effective clay legal, pigeon cart?

 

 

[Smokersmith]

I got my local dealer to load up 28g of 6.5's in fibre wads. The last lot I bought were 54 quid a slab, and he sells plenty.

[wymberley]

1 hour ago, Smokersmith said:

I got my local dealer to load up 28g of 6.5's in fibre wads. The last lot I bought were 54 quid a slab, and he sells plenty.

I could easily consider moving.

Just don't tell me he would do that in 20 bore.

[Lever357]

3 hours ago, Smokersmith said:

I got my local dealer to load up 28g of 6.5's in fibre wads. The last lot I bought were 54 quid a slab, and he sells plenty.

Are you saying he actually loads them himself?? Or are they a special order he does with one of the manufacturers? Would have thought he was on a sticky wicket selling cartridges he has loaded. 

[Smokersmith]

They're done through Express.

[wymberley]

1 hour ago, Smokersmith said:

They're done through Express.

Why did I know that you were going to say that? Way back before it changed hands they did me a special order for just 2000 in 1oz flavour. They're still making them as a standard product .

Edited April 4, 2022 by wymberley

[rbrowning2]

2 hours ago, Lever357 said:

Are you saying he actually loads them himself?? Or are they a special order he does with one of the manufacturers? Would have thought he was on a sticky wicket selling cartridges he has loaded. 

Why do you think that?, we used to have several small cartridge manufactures, loaders call them what you like, one was down the West Country, who’s name I forget, but they gave local competition to the big names. We still have that with rifle ammunition, one specialising in making non toxic ammunition and is accepted without considering it a sticky wicket.  

 

[Sweet11-87]

13 minutes ago, rbrowning2 said:

Why do you think that?, we used to have several small cartridge manufactures, loaders call them what you like, one was down the West Country, who’s name I forget, but they gave local competition to the big names. We still have that with rifle ammunition, one specialising in making non toxic ammunition and is accepted without considering it a sticky wicket.  

 

becasue by law to sell a cartridge youve loaded yourself you have to send them off to a proof house to make sure they comply with CIP standard.   and its not very cost effective to send each recipe hes making if hes selling in small batchs of a few thousand.  however if its lylevale whos making them for him to sell it will be above board

Edited April 4, 2022 by Sweet11-87

[rbrowning2]

2 minutes ago, Sweet11-87 said:

becasue by law to sell a cartridge youve loaded yourself you have to send them off to a proof house to make sure they comply with CIP standard.   and its not very cost effective to send each recipe hes making if hes selling in small batchs of a few thousand.  however if its lylevale whos making them for him to sell it will be above board

So from the following

 

“I got my local dealer to load up 28g of 6.5's in fibre wads. The last lot I bought were 54 quid a slab, and he sells plenty.”

you assumed the local dealer had not sent them off to a proof house, yet nothing in the statement allows for such a conclusion, quite the opposite if they sell plenty then they have an incentive to have sent them to a proof house.

Also please state exactly which u.k. law you are referring too.

 

[Sweet11-87]

18 minutes ago, rbrowning2 said:

So from the following

 

 

“I got my local dealer to load up 28g of 6.5's in fibre wads. The last lot I bought were 54 quid a slab, and he sells plenty.”

you assumed the local dealer had not sent them off to a proof house, yet nothing in the statement allows for such a conclusion, quite the opposite if they sell plenty then they have an incentive to have sent them to a proof house.

Also please state exactly which u.k. law you are referring too.

 

"i mean you dont have to get snotty about it.  you could just look it up yourself  but ill do it for you all the same.  I never implied anything, you asked why it a sticky wicket for small local firms to manufacture ammunition and i was simply trying to explain the costs of having your product approved and maintain approval only to then sell it relativly small scale are probably not financialy viable, unless (and im not impling they are) theyre not C.I.P proofed and theyre actualy commiting an offence.

"we used to have several small cartridge manufactures, loaders call them what you like, one was down the West Country, who’s name I forget, but they gave local competition to the big names."  your previous statment is worded in the past tense, leading me to belive theyre not about anymore........ maybe some validity behind what im talking about, or maybe they all decided theyd rather do somthing else. or maybe theyre still going and you just worded it funny. who know.

 

 

Type Approval (Homologation) and the Inspection and Check of Commercial Ammunition :

Firms wishing to manufacture, to market, or to import small arms ammunition within the C.I.P. (i.e. in a C.I.P. signatory state), must apply for C.I.P. Type Approval (Homologation).

Only those firms that have been granted C.I.P. Type Approval can manufacture and market ammunition for weapons with either smooth bore or rifled barrels.

Once Type Approved the manufacturer must repeat the inspection and check tests for each new batch of manufacture.

A Certificate of Conformity is to be issued for each calibre provided that the C.I.P. Standards have been met.

An inspection mark (Proof Mark of the Proof House) is to be affixed to each box of ammunition"

The C.I.P. is an international organization whose members are 14 states, mainly European. ("Portatives" means "portable", reflecting the fact the Commission mainly only tests small arms rounds, but the word is ordinarily omitted from the English translation of the name.) The C.I.P. safeguards that every civil firearm and all ammunition sold in C.I.P. member states are safe for the users. To achieve this, the firearms are all professionally proofed at C.I.P. accredited Proof Houses before they can be sold to consumers. The same applies for cartridges, at regular interval, cartridges are tested at the C.I.P. accredited Proof Houses.

The C.I.P. also enforces the approval of all ammunition a manufacturer or importer intends to sell in any of the C.I.P. member states. The ammunition manufacturing plants are obliged to test their products during production against the C.I.P. pressure specifications. A compliance report must be issued for each production lot and archived for later verification if needed. The cartridge boxes must also be stamped with a C.I.P. approved number to allow quality/safety traceability according to ISO 9000 principles in case of quality problem.

[Smokersmith]

2 hours ago, Smokersmith said:

They're done through Express.

 

[rbrowning2]

1 hour ago, Sweet11-87 said:

"i mean you dont have to get snotty about it.  you could just look it up yourself  but ill do it for you all the same.  I never implied anything, you asked why it a sticky wicket for small local firms to manufacture ammunition and i was simply trying to explain the costs of having your product approved and maintain approval only to then sell it relativly small scale are probably not financialy viable, unless (and im not impling they are) theyre not C.I.P proofed and theyre actualy commiting an offence.

"we used to have several small cartridge manufactures, loaders call them what you like, one was down the West Country, who’s name I forget, but they gave local competition to the big names."  your previous statment is worded in the past tense, leading me to belive theyre not about anymore........ maybe some validity behind what im talking about, or maybe they all decided theyd rather do somthing else. or maybe theyre still going and you just worded it funny. who know.

 

 

Type Approval (Homologation) and the Inspection and Check of Commercial Ammunition :

Firms wishing to manufacture, to market, or to import small arms ammunition within the C.I.P. (i.e. in a C.I.P. signatory state), must apply for C.I.P. Type Approval (Homologation).

Only those firms that have been granted C.I.P. Type Approval can manufacture and market ammunition for weapons with either smooth bore or rifled barrels.

Once Type Approved the manufacturer must repeat the inspection and check tests for each new batch of manufacture.

A Certificate of Conformity is to be issued for each calibre provided that the C.I.P. Standards have been met.

An inspection mark (Proof Mark of the Proof House) is to be affixed to each box of ammunition"

The C.I.P. is an international organization whose members are 14 states, mainly European. ("Portatives" means "portable", reflecting the fact the Commission mainly only tests small arms rounds, but the word is ordinarily omitted from the English translation of the name.) The C.I.P. safeguards that every civil firearm and all ammunition sold in C.I.P. member states are safe for the users. To achieve this, the firearms are all professionally proofed at C.I.P. accredited Proof Houses before they can be sold to consumers. The same applies for cartridges, at regular interval, cartridges are tested at the C.I.P. accredited Proof Houses.

The C.I.P. also enforces the approval of all ammunition a manufacturer or importer intends to sell in any of the C.I.P. member states. The ammunition manufacturing plants are obliged to test their products during production against the C.I.P. pressure specifications. A compliance report must be issued for each production lot and archived for later verification if needed. The cartridge boxes must also be stamped with a C.I.P. approved number to allow quality/safety traceability according to ISO 9000 principles in case of quality problem.

Thank you, can you post a link to where you copied that from please. 

 

[Sweet11-87]

4 minutes ago, rbrowning2 said:

Thank you, can you post a link to where you copied that from please. 

 

no mate. no i cant. do it yourself im not going to hammer an education into you.  its on the CIP website, you can find it on the links on the birmingham and london proof house pages.  use some initiative.

[rbrowning2]

1 minute ago, Sweet11-87 said:

no mate. no i cant. do it yourself im not going to hammer an education into you.  its on the CIP website, you can find it on the links on the birmingham and london proof house pages.  use some initiative.

This may interest you

 

https://www.eleyhawkltd.com/news/eley-hawk-first-uk-shotgun-cartridge-manufacturer-successfully-homologate-all-their-ammunition

all other manufactures have yet to get Type Approval (Homologation)., so are breaking the law then.