The end of lead - Extract from the RSPB and WWT letter - via the BASC website

[tonyshooter]

This should be of interest to members. It is an extract letter from the RSPB and WWT submitted to shooting organizations in a bid to secure a total ban on shotgun lead by the season 2024/25. The whole document is on the BASC website.

 

"We conclude that only a statutory end, i.e., a ban on the sale and use for hunting of lead shotgun ammunition, accompanied by good communication and surveillance, is likely to achieve the outcome to which all of our organisations are publicly committed. Recognising the work you have done in preparing the shooting community for change, and given that we agree with you that the use of lead shotgun ammunition should cease by the time of the 2024/2025 shooting season, we urge that you join us now in recommending to government that legislation to ban the use of lead shotgun ammunition for hunting should proceed as soon as possible and come into effect by then. We appreciate that your views on other ammunition types may be different from ours, but we are clearly in agreement about the use of lead shotgun ammunition for hunting. "

 

[TIGHTCHOKE]

What a bloody shame they didn't consult their Membership!   

[enfieldspares]

Hah! BASC have decided what's best for us and your views don't matter. And they NEVER will matter until people leave BASC and stop paying their annual membership dues. 

[wymberley]

1 hour ago, tonyshooter said:

This should be of interest to members. It is an extract letter from the RSPB and WWT submitted to shooting organizations in a bid to secure a total ban on shotgun lead by the season 2024/25. The whole document is on the BASC website.

 

"We conclude that only a statutory end, i.e., a ban on the sale and use for hunting of lead shotgun ammunition, accompanied by good communication and surveillance, is likely to achieve the outcome to which all of our organisations are publicly committed. Recognising the work you have done in preparing the shooting community for change, and given that we agree with you that the use of lead shotgun ammunition should cease by the time of the 2024/2025 shooting season, we urge that you join us now in recommending to government that legislation to ban the use of lead shotgun ammunition for hunting should proceed as soon as possible and come into effect by then. We appreciate that your views on other ammunition types may be different from ours, but we are clearly in agreement about the use of lead shotgun ammunition for hunting. "

 

Apart from the fact that we're the ones actually using the stuff and have carried out extensive trials on both sides of The Pond, just on what are these views based and have they been peer reviewed and thus scientifically valid by any chance? Which ones do you consider to be: Safe to use, Effective, Affordable and Non Toxic. Forget the 'non lead' bit, the UK Government term is non toxic.

Edited April 5, 2022 by wymberley

[Weihrauch17]

Time to end BASC and not renew membership, they serve no purpose other than to be an enemy behind the lines for the Woke Greens.  I left when John Swift betrayed his membership.

[enfieldspares]

1 minute ago, Weihrauch17 said:

Time to end BASC and not renew membership, they serve no purpose other than to be an enemy behind the lines for the Woke Greens.  I left when John Swift betrayed his membership.

+1. 

[snow white]

That’s why I dropped out of Basc five years ago not fighting for the shooting just taking our money 

[Conor O'Gorman]

The BASC statement on its website is as follows:

The RSPB and WWT have published an open letter to the joint signatories of a statement by shooting organisations in 2020 which called for a five-year transition away from lead ammunition for game shooting.

The letter calls for the signatories to pre-empt the outcome of the government’s UK REACH process on lead ammunition by calling for a statutory ban. It is worth noting that the RSPB and WWT chose not to approach the shooting organisations for co-operation or comment before publishing this open letter.

The RSPB and WWT are right to acknowledge in their letter the considerable efforts being made by shooting organisations to raise awareness of and debunk myths around the transition away from lead ammunition. 

However, their failure to acknowledge the substantial challenges involved in moving away from lead shot and single-use plastics is disappointing and the manner of the timing and delivery of their open letter suggests it is more about political grand-standing than trying to achieve anything useful to positively influence the five-year transition.

The UK Government, through UK REACH, is currently investigating the requirement for legal restrictions on the use of lead ammunition. A public consultation is expected to be launched this month leading to recommendations on the transition.

These recommendations may well follow the EU process and move towards a statutory ban on lead ammunition alongside derogations to cover circumstances when it is not yet feasible.

Since the publication of the joint statement in February 2020 by shooting organisations, significant progress has been made towards the transition despite the clear and obvious difficulties created for cartridge manufacturers and others by the Covid-19 pandemic and Brexit.

The UK REACH process is already underway and the shooting organisations remain committed to that transition and are moving our community towards change.

Shooting organisations are committed to working alongside the regulator to ensure that restriction proposals are robustly scrutinised, evidence-led and, most importantly, proportionate to any identified risk with appropriate transition periods to allow manufacturers the time to scale-up production of viable alternatives to lead.

Significant progress has been made by cartridge manufacturers in the first two years of the voluntary transition. Research and development continue at pace, but there should be no under-estimation of the seriousness of issues affecting global supply chains. The availability of raw materials, components, tools and machining continues to be affected in the aftermath of the pandemic, combined with increased demand in the USA and an increased demand in Europe ahead of the imminent “wetlands ban” in February 2023.

Despite the difficulties, the shooting organisations remain wholly committed to our five-year voluntary transition and will use our knowledge and practical experience of the sector to engage meaningfully with all relevant regulatory processes – we encourage other stakeholders to do the same.

The priority is to ensure that there is a sufficient supply of non-lead ammunition to support all forms of shooting and to ensure that risks to land, food and fauna are adequately controlled. 

The shooting community is calling for UK REACH to sit down with manufacturers and assemblers to plan a route-map for adequate supplies of sustainable ammunition. RSPB and WWT support for this would be welcome.

https://basc.org.uk/basc-statement-in-response-to-rspb-and-wwt-open-letter/

[Scully]

I wonder how this ban will be enforced, and who by, as lead shot cartridges aren’t being banned for target shooting.  
I often have lead and steel cartridges in my vehicle, neither is proof of whether I’m shooting waterfowl or game, and if they stop making game loads in lead, is the presence of trap loads in your vehicle or on your person proof of breaking the law? 

Edited April 5, 2022 by Scully

[PeterHenry]

Without getting too deeply involved in this (because I don't have the time with work) - I came to the conclusion quite a while ago that BASC are playing politics here out of necessity. I would rarther not loose lead shot - but given the way the world is going, I would much rarther loose lead than loose shooting all together.

BASC aren't like the (American) NRA - they can't fall back on the constitution and threaten the governent with legal action relating to gun ownership in a broad sense, because our constitution dosent cover gun ownership. Because of that, their hands are tied - they have to move with the times and do as best they can because as soon as public opinion (and so the publics votes) turn against us, thats us done for.

To mix metaphors, BASC have seen the writing on the wall - and regardless of the veiws of the membership - if they hadn't played ball, then we would have all eventually lost a great deal more than lead shot (which we were going to loose anyway).  Plus - they would have looked inept, instead of scoring points by being able to say they helped (with others) to proactively set the tone. Face counts for quite a bit in politics at the end of the day.

Regardless, going against public opinion and the prevailing political will, is frankly akin to pushing water up hill.

Edited April 5, 2022 by PeterHenry

[Scully]

5 minutes ago, PeterHenry said:

Without getting too deeply involved in this (because I don't have the time with work) - I came to the conclusion quite a while ago that BASC are playing politics here out of necessity. I would rarther not loose lead shot - but given the way the world is going, I would much rarther loose lead than loose shooting all together.

BASC aren't like the (American) NRA - they can't fall back on the constitution and threaten the governent with legal action relating to gun ownership in a broad sense, because our constitution dosent cover gun ownership. Because of that, their hands are tied - they have to move with the times and do as best they can because as soon as public opinion (and so the publics votes) turn against us, thats us done for.

To mix metaphors, BASC have seen the writing on the wall - and regardless of the veiws of the membership - if they hadn't played ball, then we would have all eventually lost a great deal more than lead shot (which we were going to loose anyway).  Plus - they would have looked inept, instead of scoring points by being able to say they helped (with others) to proactively set the tone. Face counts for quite a bit in politics at the end of the day.

Regardless, going against public opinion and the prevailing political will, is frankly akin to pushing water up hill.

I agree entirely. I know exactly why BASC has taken this stance. 

[PeterHenry]

2 minutes ago, Scully said:

I agree entirely. I know exactly why BASC has taken this stance. 

👍

[Weihrauch17]

No they have just betrayed their core membership and serve no puropose other than their shoddy insurance that can be bettered else where.  They are supporting big game shoots who supply the food chain and shafting everyone else.  Absolutely no proof after hundreds of years of use that Lead is a danger.  With the price of everything there won't be any Game Shooting soon except for the exceptionally wealthy.  £12.50 a Poult and rising for birds that Naff Off in the now warm winters if they make it to adult hood and £300 a tonne and rising for Wheat, no thanks well out of my means.

Edited April 5, 2022 by Weihrauch17

[clangerman]

it was always about basc throwing lead under the bus for game shooting find it hilarious they are stupid enough to think it fools anyone the public don’t care if your firing lead steel or bricks far as they go raising birds just to shoot them is not on simple as that 

[PeterHenry]

8 minutes ago, Weihrauch17 said:

No they have just betrayed their core membership and serve no puropose other than their shoddy insurance that can be bettered else where.  They are supporting big game shoots and shafting everyone else.  With the price of everything there won't be any Game Shooting soon except for the exceptionally wealthy.  £12.50 a Poult and rising for birds that Naff Off in the now warm winters if they make it to adult hood and £300 a tonne and rising for Wheat, no thanks well out of my means.

They would have done their core membership a far greater disservice if they had let the tide wash over them like King Canute.....

[Weihrauch17]

They have done us a favour by supporting a Lead Ban, FGS!!  The Tide of what, do you think supporting a Lead Ban will have any influence on the future of Game Shooting.  Really!!  No that lies with the likes of Carrie Johnson and her ilk  This is supporting big game shoots and pricing average Joe out of things, a disgusting approach backed by absolutely no science.

Edited April 5, 2022 by Weihrauch17

[PeterHenry]

46 minutes ago, Weihrauch17 said:

The Tide of what, do you think supporting a Lead Ban will have any influence on the future of Game Shooting.  Really!!  No that lies with the likes of Carrie Johnson and her like.  This is supporting big game shoots and pricing average Joe out of things, a disgusting approach backed by absolutely no science.

In short - yes, I do think a lead ban will prolong the life expectancy of shooting in this country. If shooting as a sport can be shown to adapt then it has a future - if it can't, it doesn't. The shooting organisations seem to realise this and recognise that its a matter of public opinion / appearances and political capital. Ask someone if they want lead pipes in their house, or if they would give their children lead toys to play with - it dosent matter about the science and practical toxicity of lead shot, in their minds lead = bad. And if - as I firmly believe we should - be stressing the link between shooting and food, we are asking them to put it in their mouths. Its exactly the same as when someone finds they have asbestos in their house - its all bad bad no no I want it out, etc. Dosent matter that most of it won't harm you if it stays in situ. Its the same mindset with lead.

I don't know how old you are, but I'm in my early thirties - and I would like to be able to shoot for the remainder of my time here - if that means I only get to take out my nice guns on occasion and use something else the rest of the time, so be it.

I'm under no illusions that shooting is going to change massively in my lifetime - but I would rather that than the alternitive. And for absolute clarity, I'm all for the shooting organisations trying to divert the flow and move with the current to achieve that, rather than sit, say no, and find themselves overwhelmed.

Sorry - just to adress your other points head on - 

Your point about game shooting and pricing out the average man is contradictory - unless I've misunderstood what you are trying to say? I don't see how you your assertion can support itself.

Re your point about the PM's wife - there are lots of pepole who hold the same veiws. Thats why political capital and playing politics counts for so much - the organisations are better off playing the game than being some sort of field sports equivalent of Jeremy Corbyn, preaching to the converted and raging from the sidelines.
 

Edited April 5, 2022 by PeterHenry

[Weihrauch17]

I am 56 and have been shooting since I was seven and am seriously considering throwing the towel in .

Edited April 5, 2022 by Weihrauch17

[holloway]

12 minutes ago, Weihrauch17 said:

I am 56 and have been shooting since I was seven and am seriously considering throwing the towel in .

Why ?

[PeterHenry]

1 hour ago, Weihrauch17 said:

I am 56 and have been shooting since I was seven and am seriously considering throwing the towel in .

Why? Pigeons can be shot with standard steel without a problem. To boot, I did all of my rough shooting last year with non toxic - most of that was standard steel.

I've shot driven duck with standard steel - and geese in the past. Its not a massive issue, and in practice for most application's its fine. I'm going to try a slab of bioammo blue in the near future - which when the 67mm version comes out later on this year, sounds like the panacea for my old English / Scottish guns - at least at pigeon shooting / rough shooting / 'traditional' driven shooting ranges.

 

1 hour ago, holloway said:

Why ?

Ditto

Edited April 5, 2022 by PeterHenry

[Sweet11-87]

i fully agree with  PeterHenry

in europe shooting doesent seem to get hit as hard as here and it certainly doesnt in the states because its just way more present in everyday life.  shooting in the uk will win over so many more folks and survive  if i has more of a presence in the "norm" of society.

one of many ways we can do that is to get game meat out their and become common place. it shouldnt be weird or pompus to eat  pheasent, pigeon or rabbit. So if the food chain will only accept meat shot with non toxic shot or even if people just arnt comftable eating lead shot game  regardless of the science we need to move away from it like PeterHenry said we need to show we can be reasonable and open to change.

 

 

[Newbie to this]

3 hours ago, Sweet11-87 said:

one of many ways we can do that is to get game meat out their and become common place. it shouldnt be weird or pompus to eat  pheasent, pigeon or rabbit. So if the food chain will only accept meat shot with non toxic shot or even if people just arnt comftable eating lead shot game  regardless of the science we need to move away from it like PeterHenry said we need to show we can be reasonable and open to change.

Do you really think it will make a difference, or have you just drank the cool aid.

People will eat game or they won't, it's as simple as that. I say this as someone that would eat game, regardless of what it is shot with, but don’t have the foggiest where to buy it. So chicken it is.

Didn't I read that this was about selling to the EU market, (yeah like that is going to happen, well not at a fair price anyway).

[8 shot]

12 hours ago, PeterHenry said:

Pigeons can be shot with standard steel without a problem.

I don’t know many if any farmers who allow plastic wads though and the BioWads are to me to expensive to shoot crows and pigeons. 

[Sweet11-87]

6 hours ago, Newbie to this said:

Do you really think it will make a difference, or have you just drank the cool aid.

People will eat game or they won't, it's as simple as that. I say this as someone that would eat game, regardless of what it is shot with, but don’t have the foggiest where to buy it. So chicken it is.

Didn't I read that this was about selling to the EU market, (yeah like that is going to happen, well not at a fair price anyway).

idk maybe i have been drinking the cool aid.

all i do know is that the way things are its just not working and we will lose shooting if we dont at least attempt to move with the times instead. 

i mean you have your opinion and thats fair you have just as good a chance of being correct about this as anyone becasue its uncharted territory.   but i just cant see how doing nothing is sustainable

[PeterHenry]

43 minutes ago, 8 shot said:

I don’t know many if any farmers who allow plastic wads though and the BioWads are to me to expensive to shoot crows and pigeons. 

I know a few- but sure, its true enough that a lot dont like it. But I'd be surprised if the price won't come down with time. I appreciate that in the short term everything is set to go up (and not just shooting) due to the war in Ukraine, etc - in the long term, I will bet we are going to see all sort of curbs on our liberties in the name of the environment and net zero, etc (because its second nature to some to use situation and panic to remake the world in their own image (*see Lenin. “There are decades when nothing happens; and there are weeks when decades happen.”)

I know this is veering off your point about how much biodegradable wads cost respectively to plastic wads - but I'd stress again to anyone who's reading how utterly vital it is to be able to play the good PR game. Plastic and lead are two Achilles heels to shooting - with a bit of pain now, we can loose them and fundementaly be left with the same sport. It might be that we have to shoot a little less until prices drop on bio wads if your farmers won't accept plastic wads when the day comes. So shoot a little less and take a freind along in the hide to spread the cost. I've watched bismuth (that i use to use for my snipe shooting - and still do on occasion) go up from £25 per box to over £50 in one shop. I have a lot of sympathy, believe me.

 

7 hours ago, Newbie to this said:

Do you really think it will make a difference, or have you just drank the cool aid.

People will eat game or they won't, it's as simple as that. I say this as someone that would eat game, regardless of what it is shot with, but don’t have the foggiest where to buy it. So chicken it is.

Didn't I read that this was about selling to the EU market, (yeah like that is going to happen, well not at a fair price anyway).

I don't think painting pepole as 'drinking cool aid' is going to help particularly. I'm not a cult member and I have no great love of soft drinks.

One example though - pepole care more now about traceability, environmentally friendly, and high quality, healthy food than at any other point in my life. Game can be - and most of the time is - all of those things. Lead however is the bitter pill - if the consensus is its bad for you and the environment (regardless of if it is or not) you strike out two of those things in the publics eyes before you even get started. Add to that the ingrained folk memories about it being tough / dry / being hung until its crawling with maggots..... it will do a world of good to be sold in ready meals and be available on the NHS - and those are the sort of things that are going to guarantee our sport in the future.

Re your point about game being sold to EU countries - I believe a lot if it already is. Thankfully they know a good thing when they see it - but thats not going to change any EU Legislation thats coming down the line.

Edited April 6, 2022 by PeterHenry