if its the end of lead, what about .410's

[Poor Shot]

2 hours ago, Down South said:

UK cartridge assembly companies won’t put any r&d money into finding solutions, why would they? The answer will come from Europe; France, Italy and Spain. UK companies will buy in when the development is done.

They mostly use foreign components anyway don't they? They are probably waiting on cheddite or someone developing a sub guage bio wad before developing their loadings.

[rbrowning2]

2 hours ago, mellors said:

Also all the moderated hush powers look like there destined for the scrap heap. 

The thick fibre wads will be a real problem. 

The wads may not be the issue, but at subsonic velocities steel shot will be next to useless, only leaving the very expensive alternatives.

[rbrowning2]

2 hours ago, Down South said:

UK cartridge assembly companies won’t put any r&d money into finding solutions, why would they? The answer will come from Europe; France, Italy and Spain. UK companies will buy in when the development is done.

That may very much depend on the future of bio wads not just in the U.K. but Europe, remember it is currently a U.K. (and Denmark) initiative to move away from single use plastic quite small markets compared to the rest of the world, So will the big players come to are rescue? R&D is not cheap so market forces must justify that investment especially with the .410 and 28ga.

 

[Fellside]

15 hours ago, grahamch said:

Lobby for an exemption for 410s as they have in NZ?

Grahamch, could you please tell me, have 410s already been excepted in NZ?

Trying to find light at the end of the tunnel here: if there is a UK lead ban and the 410 (and poss’ 28 gauge) becomes exempt, these smallest bores could end up being extremely popular. 

[grahamch]

1 hour ago, Fellside said:

Grahamch, could you please tell me, have 410s already been excepted in NZ?

Trying to find light at the end of the tunnel here: if there is a UK lead ban and the 410 (and poss’ 28 gauge) becomes exempt, these smallest bores could end up being extremely popular. 

Sorry no, but they have a more enlightened approach to the use of lead, seems only to be restricted on wetland and within 200 yards of wet lands. Am sure the is info on PW about it

 

[Fellside]

3 minutes ago, grahamch said:

Sorry no, but they have a more enlightened approach to the use of lead, seems only to be restricted on wetland and within 200 yards of wet lands. Am sure the is info on PW about it

 

Thanks for that. 

[243deer]

here is the link for the NZ regs for those that are interested

https://fishandgame.org.nz/game-bird-hunting-in-new-zealand/hunting-regulations/non-toxic-shot-regulations/

I do a lot of ratting on farms with my moderated .410 and sub cartridges which I can now reload myself once my stock of commercials is exhausted. I raised this issue with BASC, in writing and verbally to regional representatives when I was a member.

Due to the very disappointing irrelevant response that I have received (they gave me details of a trial day for 12g and 20g steel cartridges) I withdrew my financial support of BASC, they have had their chance in my view and appear to care little for the less well off shooter who mainly does useful pest control. 

 

 

[Fellside]

37 minutes ago, 243deer said:

here is the link for the NZ regs for those that are interested

https://fishandgame.org.nz/game-bird-hunting-in-new-zealand/hunting-regulations/non-toxic-shot-regulations/

I do a lot of ratting on farms with my moderated .410 and sub cartridges which I can now reload myself once my stock of commercials is exhausted. I raised this issue with BASC, in writing and verbally to regional representatives when I was a member.

Due to the very disappointing irrelevant response that I have received (they gave me details of a trial day for 12g and 20g steel cartridges) I withdrew my financial support of BASC, they have had their chance in my view and appear to care little for the less well off shooter who mainly does useful pest control. 

 

 

Thanks 243deer. Having now read their reg’s and justification above, I think they appear to have a very sensible approach - one which our government could learn a great deal from. 

[Smudger687]

Steel even out of a 20 gauge is pushing it. The 28 and 410 don't really have the capacity for the larger shot sizes necessary with steel. Think of how sparse the average 410 pattern is with 7.5 lead, then imagine how much worse it would be using size 4 or 5 steel. It's a non starter.

Copper shot might just about keep the 410 usable but it's difficult to source.

 

[Ultrastu]

Why not just use no 6 steel in .410 ?

You would have the same size pellets as no 6 lead and the same pellet count. The weight would be less  and hence the velocity faster (given the same powder charge ).

The pellets would deform less (as they do ) and possibly pattern tighter . Max range  for  410. Lead has always been around 30 - 35 yds .not because  the lead doesn't carry enough energy .but because the pattern fails .. with steel  we will have the same pellet Count and possibly better pattern  density  . The energy is largely irrelevant  (up to a point .) I don't see steel being much less effective at 25 - 30 yds than the current lead offerings .

One of the biggest  issues with .410 carts is that a lot of the pellets get scrubbed up the side of the bore and this makes them  unround  ruining the pattern and energy .

A harder steel pellet may actually  kill better than .410 lead . 

I'd certainly  be willing to find out .

[6.5x55SE]

23 hours ago, Smudger687 said:

Steel even out of a 20 gauge is pushing it. The 28 and 410 don't really have the capacity for the larger shot sizes necessary with steel. Think of how sparse the average 410 pattern is with 7.5 lead, then imagine how much worse it would be using size 4 or 5 steel. It's a non starter.

Copper shot might just about keep the 410 usable but it's difficult to source.

 

Absolute rubbish . I've shot hundreds upon hundreds of Geese and Duck ( foreshore and inland ) using steel shot from a 20ga just a a experiment I loaded BBB's in my 20 they to killed very well. 28ga I've again killed my share .410 i done a wright up about a successful moonflight after Pink's using Steel shot. Just the same as any type of shot put a pattern with penetration in the right spot the target will die. Just because you can't don't knock others than can. 

[rbrowning2]

52 minutes ago, Ultrastu said:

Why not just use no 6 steel in .410 ?

You would have the same size pellets as no 6 lead and the same pellet count. The weight would be less  and hence the velocity faster (given the same powder charge ).

The pellets would deform less (as they do ) and possibly pattern tighter . Max range  for  410. Lead has always been around 30 - 35 yds .not because  the lead doesn't carry enough energy .but because the pattern fails .. with steel  we will have the same pellet Count and possibly better pattern  density  . The energy is largely irrelevant  (up to a point .) I don't see steel being much less effective at 25 - 30 yds than the current lead offerings .

One of the biggest  issues with .410 carts is that a lot of the pellets get scrubbed up the side of the bore and this makes them  unround  ruining the pattern and energy .

A harder steel pellet may actually  kill better than .410 lead . 

I'd certainly  be willing to find out .

sounds like a plan, but do remember the faster they leave the muzzle the quicker they will slow down and maintaining the same size shot will reduce the mass of each pellet making each pellet lighter adding to pace at which they lose velocity and hence energy.

Also until (if ever) a bio plastic wad arrives for .410 then a compromise will be needed to continue with single use plastic.
However the like of wild justice agenda is on banning lead not single use plastic wads. Which may then become the problem of the future and if single use plastic is not banned together with lead then all cartridge gauges can continue to be manufactured with them which are a very much cheaper option than bio wads, resulting possibly in the demise of bio wads.

edited to add, always assuming the land owner is happy for single use plastic wads to be used.

 

Edited April 8, 2022 by rbrowning2

[Smudger687]

8 hours ago, 6.5x55SE said:

Absolute rubbish . I've shot hundreds upon hundreds of Geese and Duck ( foreshore and inland ) using steel shot from a 20ga just a a experiment I loaded BBB's in my 20 they to killed very well. 28ga I've again killed my share .410 i done a wright up about a successful moonflight after Pink's using Steel shot. Just the same as any type of shot put a pattern with penetration in the right spot the target will die. Just because you can't don't knock others than can. 

Yes, you are right

[London Best]

9 hours ago, 6.5x55SE said:

Absolute rubbish . I've shot hundreds upon hundreds of Geese and Duck ( foreshore and inland ) using steel shot from a 20ga just a a experiment I loaded BBB's in my 20 they to killed very well. 28ga I've again killed my share .410 i done a wright up about a successful moonflight after Pink's using Steel shot. Just the same as any type of shot put a pattern with penetration in the right spot the target will die. Just because you can't don't knock others than can. 

Far too much common sense there!

Well said.

[Fellside]

13 hours ago, 6.5x55SE said:

Absolute rubbish . I've shot hundreds upon hundreds of Geese and Duck ( foreshore and inland ) using steel shot from a 20ga just a a experiment I loaded BBB's in my 20 they to killed very well. 28ga I've again killed my share .410 i done a wright up about a successful moonflight after Pink's using Steel shot. Just the same as any type of shot put a pattern with penetration in the right spot the target will die. Just because you can't don't knock others than can. 

No need to start swinging your handbag. I don’t think smudger687 was setting out to ‘knock others’. He makes a valid point actually - re decent driven birds which I’m sure he was referring to. This is the mainstay of the average shooting season for most guns after all - but I appreciate there are exceptions.

A 24 gram load of steel 3s out of a 20 bore (with about 100 pellets) is virtually useless in pattern terms for rangey pheasants. The patterns are about the same as a 410 using a 2” 9 gram lead number 6. You might be able to down geese with about 5 times the body size using a handful of 3s, close enough to hear their wing noise, or flighting ducks which aren’t usually sky scrapers, but try a 50 yard hen pheasant using a 410 with about eighty odd pellets…….?! No thanks. It wouldn’t be ethical. I think there is a strong and valid case for allowing the continued use of lead through the 410 and 28 when or if legislation calls the shots. 

How about suggesting to the average game shot: that they should give up their 30 gram lead 12 bore cart’ for a replacement 9 gram one. See how you get on…..🙂  This would roughly equate to the 410 / steel 3s for pattern density. 

[6.5x55SE]

1 hour ago, Fellside said:

No need to start swinging your handbag. I don’t think smudger687 was setting out to ‘knock others’. He makes a valid point actually - re decent driven birds which I’m sure he was referring to. This is the mainstay of the average shooting season for most guns after all - but I appreciate there are exceptions.

A 24 gram load of steel 3s out of a 20 bore (with about 100 pellets) is virtually useless in pattern terms for rangey pheasants. The patterns are about the same as a 410 using a 2” 9 gram lead number 6. You might be able to down geese with about 5 times the body size using a handful of 3s, close enough to hear their wing noise, or flighting ducks which aren’t usually sky scrapers, but try a 50 yard hen pheasant using a 410 with about eighty odd pellets…….?! No thanks. It wouldn’t be ethical. I think there is a strong and valid case for allowing the continued use of lead through the 410 and 28 when or if legislation calls the shots. 

How about suggesting to the average game shot: that they should give up their 30 gram lead 12 bore cart’ for a replacement 9 gram one. See how you get on…..🙂  This would roughly equate to the 410 / steel 3s for pattern density. 

I suggest you take your own advice. ( First part of your reply ). 

[Smudger687]

@6.5x55SEThere really isn't any need to be so confrontational. If you're able to do what you say you can do, then I'd like to learn how you do it.

I am, however, curious as to why you own anything other than a .410 then? Am I not correct in thinking that you own at least one 12 gauge, and even own at least one 10 gauge? Why would you own either if a .410 can perform equally well? 

I also find it difficult to believe that you're able to consistently pass shoot pinkfoot geese, with steel, from a .410 (and you must be able to do it consistently, because 12's and 10's can do it consistently). I've yet to see a >35 yard pattern from a .410 that hasn't long fallen apart (excepting when TSS is used, but that's outside the scope of this conversation), and pass shooting geese is almost certainly at ranges in excess of 35 yards. 

What loads are you using to achieve these results? Would you mind posting your best 40 yard pattern so that we can see how it performs?

Thanks

 

[holloway]

On 06/04/2022 at 21:51, tonyshooter said:

I have it on good authority that .410 ga and 28 bores will become almost obselete !

 

Just look on Holts to see whats not selling, even at bargain basement prices.

 

Dealer near me says the only guns selling at the moment are small bores he can’t get enough of them to sell,also friend of mine  has been using his bolt action 4.10 on decoyed ducks all last season with home loads .

[Fellside]

49 minutes ago, 6.5x55SE said:

I suggest you take your own advice. ( First part of your reply ). 

You’ll generally find that people don’t like antisocial outbursts, it was very handbaggy, and alluding to this doesn’t make me the lout. Look forward to seeing your 40 (better 50) yard 410 steel patterns. 

[6.5x55SE]

1 hour ago, Smudger687 said:

@6.5x55SEThere really isn't any need to be so confrontational. If you're able to do what you say you can do, then I'd like to learn how you do it.

I am, however, curious as to why you own anything other than a .410 then? Am I not correct in thinking that you own at least one 12 gauge, and even own at least one 10 gauge? Why would you own either if a .410 can perform equally well? 

I also find it difficult to believe that you're able to consistently pass shoot pinkfoot geese, with steel, from a .410 (and you must be able to do it consistently, because 12's and 10's can do it consistently). I've yet to see a >35 yard pattern from a .410 that hasn't long fallen apart (excepting when TSS is used, but that's outside the scope of this conversation), and pass shooting geese is almost certainly at ranges in excess of 35 yards. 

What loads are you using to achieve these results? Would you mind posting your best 40 yard pattern so that we can see how it performs?

Thanks

 

First of all text and type does not come across as face to face speech/talk.  I answered your statement honestly and truthfully through 50+ years Wildfowling coastal inland throughout the UK and Scottish Island. My comments are or was not boastful or I'm better than anyone else which also includes yourself. Wether you or Fellside believe me is both your choices.  But there are several members who have witnessed my results with the gun/gauges mentioned. Short version IF and a Big IF lead is band shooting small gauge gun for myself ( and plenty i know ) won't hinder me/us.

Oh and where Fellside got all the .410 steel 50 yrd from Read my reply to your post i never said or mentioned Pheasant. Anyway Life is to short enjoy your shooting what ever species you pursue with gun and shot of your choice. 👍

[Fellside]

8 minutes ago, 6.5x55SE said:

First of all text and type does not come across as face to face speech/talk.  I answered your statement honestly and truthfully through 50+ years Wildfowling coastal inland throughout the UK and Scottish Island. My comments are or was not boastful or I'm better than anyone else which also includes yourself. Wether you or Fellside believe me is both your choices.  But there are several members who have witnessed my results with the gun/gauges mentioned. Short version IF and a Big IF lead is band shooting small gauge gun for myself ( and plenty i know ) won't hinder me/us.

Oh and where Fellside got all the .410 steel 50 yrd from Read my reply to your post i never said or mentioned Pheasant. Anyway Life is to short enjoy your shooting what ever species you pursue with gun and shot of your choice. 👍

I used the 40 - 50 yard pheasant determinant as this is a general ‘litmus test’ for the commonest form of game shooting. It is likely to be more difficult to achieve effective patterns using large steel pellets, through a small bore, on birds much smaller than your enormous geese - which I have also shot for decades, admittedly with a 12 bore. 

I applaud your achievements if you are killing geese cleanly at 30 yards or so with steel and a 410 (genuinely). However, I don’t think lead being banned from 410 usage will do us any favours within game shooting. I understand that some people have found steel workable on decoyed pigeons - and I take some encouragement from this. Really though…… given a choice, we would be better off with the freedom to choose lead shot for our 410s when appropriate. I would therefore hope if lead is outlawed, there is a sensible exemption for that delightful little wand - the 410. 
Happy hunting!
 

 

[rbrowning2]

Dated now but worth a read, steel shot.

http://www.fourten.org.uk/index.html

 

 

[6.5x55SE]

1 hour ago, Fellside said:

I used the 40 - 50 yard pheasant determinant as this is a general ‘litmus test’ for the commonest form of game shooting. It is likely to be more difficult to achieve effective patterns using large steel pellets, through a small bore, on birds much smaller than your enormous geese - which I have also shot for decades, admittedly with a 12 bore. 

I applaud your achievements if you are killing geese cleanly at 30 yards or so with steel and a 410 (genuinely). However, I don’t think lead being banned from 410 usage will do us any favours within game shooting. I understand that some people have found steel workable on decoyed pigeons - and I take some encouragement from this. Really though…… given a choice, we would be better off with the freedom to choose lead shot for our 410s when appropriate. I would therefore hope if lead is outlawed, there is a sensible exemption for that delightful little wand - the 410. 
Happy hunting!
 

 

My truthful honest opinion shooter's have been sold down the river. Being a out and out Wildfowling i had two choices " pack up or use the card I was dealt " has i happy 100% no did i agree 100% no do i agree with what's in the pipeline 100% no. No excuse on my behalf i was trying ( obviously not very good ) to offer advice and encouragement that placed in the right spot steel will/can work . Hard to explain but i try to teach shooter's who ask shoot the gun in hand not the gauge/bore the same principle with shot oh cause i would ever attempt to shoot a Duck or Goose eg 50+ yrd with steel from a .410 TSS now that's another story 😊 

[8 shot]

For the last 6 or 7 weekends I've been using steel on decoyed pigeons and crows, in 32g and in two shot sizes 3s and 4s from Eley and Gamebore and also 32g of 6s and 28g  7/12 in lead through 1/2 choke for all. What i've noticed is for the size of bird i've been shooting 4s in steel are no different to lead out to 35yrd beyond that it's effectiveness it's very patchy, (% kills dropping off quickly) 3s ok to 30ish yrds but if you do hit them beyond that they do kill them dead. My conclusions are that the pattern is very sparse with 3s at 35+yds  but the pellets still have plenty of energy if you do connect. Possibly ok on larger birds ie pheasant duck etc.. but not for small birds, partridge etc.. at longer ranges.The 4s fine but lack energy at beyond 40yrds. For what it's worth I think the 50+yrd pheasant and partridge would lead to wounding with both 3s and 4s. The 71/2s were just as effective as steel at all ranges to 45+yrds

[Smudger687]

2 hours ago, 6.5x55SE said:

First of all text and type does not come across as face to face speech/talk.  I answered your statement honestly and truthfully through 50+ years Wildfowling coastal inland throughout the UK and Scottish Island. My comments are or was not boastful or I'm better than anyone else which also includes yourself. Wether you or Fellside believe me is both your choices.  But there are several members who have witnessed my results with the gun/gauges mentioned. Short version IF and a Big IF lead is band shooting small gauge gun for myself ( and plenty i know ) won't hinder me/us.

Oh and where Fellside got all the .410 steel 50 yrd from Read my reply to your post i never said or mentioned Pheasant. Anyway Life is to short enjoy your shooting what ever species you pursue with gun and shot of your choice. 👍

I'm not suggesting that you're not being truthful, but the ultimate thrust of my original argument is that even with lead, the smaller bores tend to have less effective range simply because the pattern falls apart sooner. With having to use larger shot sizes of steel, this problem is only made worse. 

As for 50 yards, in fairness you did say that you'd killed Pinkfoots on moonflights with your .410 and steel, which is normally pass shooting ranges unless I am very much mistaken.