if its the end of lead, what about .410's

[Fellside]

Am I missing something here? We shouldn’t be subject to EU REACH restriction proposals - as we are no longer an EU member state. 

Some countries have restricted lead shot by a maximum percentage calculation. In other words the larger calibers make up the vast majority of shot use,  so they have focused on those, thus the 410 is exempt. See New Zealand’s excellent example. There seems to be no reason why we can’t adopt similar. 
 

[enfieldspares]

11 hours ago, rbrowning2 said:

posted by Conor BASC on another forum :

 

• ban on the sale and use of lead gunshot (with a five-year transition period). As current Olympic rules specify the use of lead ammunition for certain disciplines, ECHA also considered an optional derogation for use of lead gunshot for sports shooting only under strict conditions, i.e. when releases to the environment are minimised.

Me on that same other forum:

There must be NO derogation for shotgun using "Olympic Sports". If this costs Team Great Britain a place on the medals podium in Paris in 2024 then let it be so. There should be no "officers only" "all animals are equal but some animals are more equal than others" nonsense. Let the Olympic shooters also suffer the ban because they've been bloody well silent about any opposition to it so far. So let them reap that harvest too. Same as when the pistol ban came in.

Those Olympic shooters who sought and were given a dispensation could have made a point in London in 2012 by turning up and setting up as if to shoot but then benching their pistols and walking off the range in protest. The worldwide media coverage would have been invaluable. But no...self serving ever and that the pistol ban was for the little people. It's not good enough. Everyone of my age remembers this:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1968_Olympics_Black_Power_salute

Those guys were vilified for what they did but they were brave enough to make their point, to make their protest not only peacefully but to gain maximum coverage in the media. On that podium they took a stand. And British Olympic pistol shooters in London in 2012 did nothing. As it was all about self interest above the interests of other shooters.

18 minutes ago, Fellside said:

Am I missing something here? We shouldn’t be subject to EU REACH restriction proposals - as we are no longer an EU member state. 

Some countries have restricted lead shot by a maximum percentage calculation. In other words the larger calibers make up the vast majority of shot use,  so they have focused on those, thus the 410 is exempt. See New Zealand’s excellent example. There seems to be no reason why we can’t adopt similar. 
 

I kept asking this. But BASC say that it's not the same circumstances in NZ as in the UK. The only difference I see is the £250,000 that BASC has funded the British Game Alliance with.

Edited April 20, 2022 by enfieldspares

[Smudger687]

I had an interesting chat with a BASC spokesperson recently. They stated that BASC's push to move away from lead was, in large part, driven by the continent's reluctance to eat game containing lead shot, and they were concerned as to the impact this would have on commercial game shoots that sell a lot of birds for consumption in Europe. 

When asked why they weren't content to just let market forces take over in encouraging shoots to move away from lead, they stated that some of the shoots would have gone under by that point if it was left as a voluntary choice. 

As I had suspected, it quickly became clear over the course of the conversation that all the environmental and health effects of lead shot were not, in fact, the primary driver behind the switch, but rather just convenient excuses to retroactively justify their decision. 

Quite disappointing, but hardly surprising behaviour from BASC. 

 

[Scully]

42 minutes ago, Fellside said:

Am I missing something here? We shouldn’t be subject to EU REACH restriction proposals - as we are no longer an EU member state. 

 

I queried this also, but am assuming that as the push is to sell game on the European mainland we were bound to comply with EU REACH legislation? 🤷‍♂️

[Fellside]

1 hour ago, Scully said:

I queried this also, but am assuming that as the push is to sell game on the European mainland we were bound to comply with EU REACH legislation? 🤷‍♂️

Yes perhaps that’s it. 

There is a strong case for vermin shooting with a 410 being an ‘optional derogation’. In other words for continued lead shot use…..if common sense prevails…..??!!

[8 shot]

2 hours ago, Scully said:

I queried this also, but am assuming that as the push is to sell game on the European mainland we were bound to comply with EU REACH legislation? 🤷‍♂️

They DO NOT comply with are regulations  when they sell agricultural food products to us, they’re still using products on oilseed products and cereals imported to this country that we ban years ago. Some of those chemicals are proven to damage health and the environment more than lead ever will. We are being shafted by this country and the EU once again 

 

[holloway]

On 09/04/2022 at 18:44, Smokersmith said:

As a steel shooter through fowling, homeloader and regular ‘patterner’ of steel loads … I might suggest that they’re tighter than you think, and you’re not getting them in the middle of the pattern.

Definitely this.

[Scully]

3 hours ago, Fellside said:

 

There is a strong case for vermin shooting with a 410 being an ‘optional derogation’. In other words for continued lead shot use…..if common sense prevails…..??!!

There is indeed.
I am in no doubt that the needs of the average shooting man are being treated largely indifferently by our so called representatives in all this, as they, like any business, pursue the money. 

[Fellside]

1 hour ago, Scully said:

There is indeed.
I am in no doubt that the needs of the average shooting man are being treated largely indifferently by our so called representatives in all this, as they, like any business, pursue the money. 

I have a sad feeling you’re right on that Scully. 

[enfieldspares]

3 hours ago, Scully said:

There is indeed.
I am in no doubt that the needs of the average shooting man are being treated largely indifferently by our so called representatives in all this, as they, like any business, pursue the money. 

Yes, I think you are right.

[Scully]

10 hours ago, enfieldspares said:

Me on that same other forum:

There must be NO derogation for shotgun using "Olympic Sports". If this costs Team Great Britain a place on the medals podium in Paris in 2024 then let it be so. There should be no "officers only" "all animals are equal but some animals are more equal than others" nonsense. Let the Olympic shooters also suffer the ban because they've been bloody well silent about any opposition to it so far. So let them reap that harvest too. Same as when the pistol ban came in.

Those Olympic shooters who sought and were given a dispensation could have made a point in London in 2012 by turning up and setting up as if to shoot but then benching their pistols and walking off the range in protest. The worldwide media coverage would have been invaluable. But no...self serving ever and that the pistol ban was for the little people. It's not good enough. Everyone of my age remembers this:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1968_Olympics_Black_Power_salute

Those guys were vilified for what they did but they were brave enough to make their point, to make their protest not only peacefully but to gain maximum coverage in the media. On that podium they took a stand. And British Olympic pistol shooters in London in 2012 did nothing. As it was all about self interest above the interests of other shooters.

I kept asking this. But BASC say that it's not the same circumstances in NZ as in the UK. The only difference I see is the £250,000 that BASC has funded the British Game Alliance with.

Must admit I know exactly where you’re coming from with this, and share your anger. 

[NoBodyImportant]

Over hear in North Carolina, they banned lead  for water fowl when shot over bodies of water.  Everyone still uses it though.  

[Vince Green]

On 20/04/2022 at 09:57, Fellside said:

Am I missing something here? We shouldn’t be subject to EU REACH restriction proposals - as we are no longer an EU member state.  
 

I totally agree but the ammo makers dont regard UK as a very significant market on its own. So whatever happens we will still be victims of the market forces in Europe

It will be gun control by stealth on a massive scale, its started already

Edited April 23, 2022 by Vince Green

[wymberley]

25 minutes ago, Vince Green said:

I totally agree but the ammo makers dont regard UK as a very significant market on its own. So whatever happens we will still be victims of the market forces in Europe

Not that I'm bothered as I use lead, but on top of that our own home grown supply of tungsten has been put on hold due to the general overall cost of getting it out of the ground and its value when you have.

[grahamch]

1 minute ago, wymberley said:

Not that I'm bothered as I use lead, but on top of that our own home grown supply of tungsten has been put on hold due to the general overall cost of getting it out of the ground and its value when you have.

Apparently we have one of the largest tungsten deposits in the world in Cornwall or therabouts. 

[moondoggy]

42 minutes ago, grahamch said:

Apparently we have one of the largest tungsten deposits in the world in Cornwall or therabouts. 

Cornwall is already like a Swiss cheese without digging for tungsten 🤣

[Old farrier]

12 hours ago, NoBodyImportant said:

Over hear in North Carolina, they banned lead  for water fowl when shot over bodies of water.  Everyone still uses it though.  

But 

what penalties are there for noncompliance?

would you loose your license and have to dispose of your guns ?

[ditchman]

with the possibility of a lead ban on rifles....is it likly we will see the advent of much larger calibre rifles....?using a none toxic round ??

[Windswept]

Isn't also down to barrel twist rates? Current 22LR non-toxic doesn't seem to like the same twist rate for lead, a gun made for non-toxic may well fair better.

[Fellside]

7 hours ago, Vince Green said:

I totally agree but the ammo makers dont regard UK as a very significant market on its own. So whatever happens we will still be victims of the market forces in Europe

It will be gun control by stealth on a massive scale, its started already

I appreciate that the 410 is a niche caliber- especially in Europe. However, one of the main UK loaders have their own shot tower. If we can continue with lead shot in 410s, all we need is the raw material and there is no shortage of that. 

[Vince Green]

12 hours ago, Fellside said:

I appreciate that the 410 is a niche caliber- especially in Europe. However, one of the main UK loaders have their own shot tower. 

They are not going to be able to keep that up and running just for a few .410 cartridges. This is the problem, the market for ammunition doesn't have to dry up completely. Even quite a small drop in demand  will tip manufacturers over from making a profit to making a loss. The same with dealers and shooting grounds. They are all barely managing to survive now.

it will have a domino effect

Edited April 24, 2022 by Vince Green

[Vince Green]

This is a good well balanced article on .22 lead free

Our lead free bullet test compares three lead-free rounds using four different .22 rifles | Rifle Shooter (rifleshootermagazine.co.uk)

the only problem is the price

Edited April 24, 2022 by Vince Green

[Fellside]

2 hours ago, Vince Green said:

They are not going to be able to keep that up and running just for a few .410 cartridges. This is the problem, the market for ammunition doesn't have to dry up completely. Even quite a small drop in demand  will tip manufacturers over from making a profit to making a loss. The same with dealers and shooting grounds. They are all barely managing to survive now.

it will have a domino effect

Yes I see your point re volume and costs etc and appreciate scale requirements. I suppose I am just trying to keep my hopes up. I like to think that in the world of business, an unexploited niche is usually filled by somebody. I appreciate this is all wishing and conjecture on my part, but wouldn’t it be great if the 410 lead ammunition was exempted and supply fulfilled across Europe by a couple of competing cartridge companies. 

I don’t think it will happen by accident however. We have to put our so called ‘org’s’ under pressure to achieve this 410 exemption - or ‘derogation’ as the preferred term seems to be. 

[Vince Green]

2 minutes ago, Fellside said:

Yes I see your point re volume and costs etc and appreciate scale requirements. I suppose I am just trying to keep my hopes up. I like to think that in the world of business, an unexploited niche is usually filled by somebody. I appreciate this is all wishing and conjecture on my part, but wouldn’t it be great if the 410 lead ammunition was exempted and supply fulfilled across Europe by a couple of competing cartridge companies. 

I don’t think it will happen by accident however. We have to put our so called ‘org’s’ under pressure to achieve this 410 exemption - or ‘derogation’ as the preferred term seems to be. 

Well my mate has a shot maker but the same problem is going to happen with the supply of wads cases and perhaps the powders too.

Also it may keep a few old boys ticking over for a couple of years but no new people will be coming in to take their place.

Muzzle loaders are worried about all this too. Will they be exempt?

 

 

[Vince Green]

14 hours ago, Windswept said:

Isn't also down to barrel twist rates? Current 22LR non-toxic doesn't seem to like the same twist rate for lead, a gun made for non-toxic may well fair better.

That may well be because they are 24grn bullets not 40grn