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Today a woman with a bearded collie asked if her dog and my 5 month springer Tom could play,  she was taken back when I refused coming out with allsorts of rubbish about he needs socialising and how can he if I don't let him. 

I don't think she could grasp he's a gun dog in training and each step will be done in my time and under my control, Tom has met a few dog's of my choosing when conditions and timing was right, she also had a friendly water spaniel but that bit my friends little dog that resulted in £125 vet's bill.

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100%  Yes, all dogs have to be what I call "pub trained" introduced to humans first and allowed to be stroked and petted, hear all sorts of strange noises and see strange things.  I sat in a gun bus on this last season and two dogs came aboard. the first a young dog maybe 12 mths old and obvious happy with life and accepted a pat and a word with anyone wanting to say hello. The owner had the dog on a lead under absolute control.  He sat down and the dog sat between his knees and never moved more than to look up occasionally at his owner.   The second dog came aboard on an extended lead, bounded in and went straight at the well behaved dog, not agressively but it's owner made absolutely no effort to control it.  It was virtually feral. It wasn't that it did not respond to the handler it was the fact the handler was making no effort to control the dog at all. Basically a pain in the butt.   So, it is not only non shooting folk who do not understand the rules.   Many moons ago I was present at the morning gathering for a days shooting and a red MGB sports car pulled up and I was amazed when a blond lady got out along with five labs. The labs  imediately went to the nearest patch of grass and relieved themselves.  The lady, Gay Bailey then pipped the whistle and they all return. She sat them in a line and from that point until we moved off they never moved but their eyes never left The Boss.  A joy to see.

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1 hour ago, Walker570 said:

100%  Yes, all dogs have to be what I call "pub trained" introduced to humans first and allowed to be stroked and petted, hear all sorts of strange noises and see strange things.  I sat in a gun bus on this last season and two dogs came aboard. the first a young dog maybe 12 mths old and obvious happy with life and accepted a pat and a word with anyone wanting to say hello. The owner had the dog on a lead under absolute control.  He sat down and the dog sat between his knees and never moved more than to look up occasionally at his owner.   The second dog came aboard on an extended lead, bounded in and went straight at the well behaved dog, not agressively but it's owner made absolutely no effort to control it.  It was virtually feral. It wasn't that it did not respond to the handler it was the fact the handler was making no effort to control the dog at all. Basically a pain in the butt.   So, it is not only non shooting folk who do not understand the rules.   Many moons ago I was present at the morning gathering for a days shooting and a red MGB sports car pulled up and I was amazed when a blond lady got out along with five labs. The labs  imediately went to the nearest patch of grass and relieved themselves.  The lady, Gay Bailey then pipped the whistle and they all return. She sat them in a line and from that point until we moved off they never moved but their eyes never left The Boss.  A joy to see.

She must be the lady that used to write for one of the shooting magazines within the dog section as Gaynor Bailey (think it was The Shooting Gazette)

I was introduced to her by the late John Humphreys at a game fair some years ago. She was a lovely lady and very modest in that she was concerned that her writing was not interesting enough for people to read. I must admit to buttering her up a tad by saying that her column was the first that I turned to when opening the magazine. The smile on her face was a joy to behold.

OB

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Well I am surprised with the answers, maybe we have a total misunderstanding of the title gun dog. 

Our's pick up on a couple of shoots, nothing too posh most has been 300 bird days, they are reasonably well behaved work very hard on shoot days and we receive plenty of compliments on their obedience. 

But we do allow them to play with other dogs in an open field, some days there are up to 15 dogs running round playing and chasing each other. 

When the recall is blown they come to heel, what are we doing wrong ? 

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11 hours ago, Dougy said:

Well I am surprised with the answers, maybe we have a total misunderstanding of the title gun dog. 

Our's pick up on a couple of shoots, nothing too posh most has been 300 bird days, they are reasonably well behaved work very hard on shoot days and we receive plenty of compliments on their obedience. 

But we do allow them to play with other dogs in an open field, some days there are up to 15 dogs running round playing and chasing each other. 

When the recall is blown they come to heel, what are we doing wrong ? 

You may be missing a point, at 5 month's old the last thing I want is my dog running about with some random mutt and me having no chance of getting him back. There will be plenty of time for him to meet other dog's but it will always be under my control. I have no intention of the pup thinking its more fun to run off and play with other dog's. I  have done it this way with every dog I've had and they all turned out to be good dog's. When trained to a standard I'm happy with the dog will get total enjoyment from working even in the company of other dog's 

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4 hours ago, B725 said:

You may be missing a point, at 5 month's old the last thing I want is my dog running about with some random mutt and me having no chance of getting him back. There will be plenty of time for him to meet other dog's but it will always be under my control. I have no intention of the pup thinking its more fun to run off and play with other dog's. I  have done it this way with every dog I've had and they all turned out to be good dog's. When trained to a standard I'm happy with the dog will get total enjoyment from working even in the company of other dog's 

Spot on.

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1 hour ago, 39TDS said:

A chap once told me that his fur baby that was running around barking wasn't aggressive.

I just told him I ******* am!

He got the message 🤣

That's the problem most folk with a dog have no idea what so ever how to train them or what's involved, the think because Fenton brings a ball back when thrown it must be trained, at least I see less stupid people and their mutts now than during the pandemic. 

If only there was some sort of legislation that meant if you had a dog you and your mutt had to be trained to a minimum standard, 

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19 hours ago, Dougy said:

Well I am surprised with the answers, maybe we have a total misunderstanding of the title gun dog. 

Our's pick up on a couple of shoots, nothing too posh most has been 300 bird days, they are reasonably well behaved work very hard on shoot days and we receive plenty of compliments on their obedience. 

But we do allow them to play with other dogs in an open field, some days there are up to 15 dogs running round playing and chasing each other. 

When the recall is blown they come to heel, what are we doing wrong ? 

 

Whilst some people will crack on and try to have their dog almost fully trained by 12 months old, many others will leave the dog well alone until 18 - 24 months.

For a young impressionable dog, it's not always the best for them to learn it's great fun to go running off and going mad with a load of other untrained dogs, whilst also giving them the opportunity to learn to ignore recall. 

I will let my dog socialise with other dogs and have a play where I know the place and the other dog's but I don't want someone else's unknown dog running off lead with mine as they are a complete unknown entity and 99.9% of dogs I see out are a complete nuisance. 

Would prefer to avoid them completely to be honest. 

 

 

My mate who's allergic to dogs had an issue this week where someone golden retriever ran up to him and was jumping all over him whilst he was in his suit for work. He told the owner to get control of the dog, and the owner just said "don't worry, the dog hairs just wipe off". 

 

Besides that, do dogs really need to go on "play dates" or other nonsence with other dogs? Do packs of wild dogs go and visit other packs to have a play? I doubt it. 

Its just more people nonsence, attaching their emotions to dogs (their fur babies!) 

 

They are dogs, not children. 

 

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38 minutes ago, Lloyd90 said:

My mate who's allergic to dogs had an issue this week where someone golden retriever ran up to him and was jumping all over him whilst he was in his suit for work. He told the owner to get control of the dog, and the owner just said "don't worry, the dog hairs just wipe off". 

I have had very similar myself, also a Golden Retriever as was the one I mentioned above but a different one. I am sure Golden Retrievers can make lovely dogs but in my own  experience their owners are muppets that have become so used to their dogs being completely out of control they think it is normal.

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I don't think you can really start too early training a dog, providing it's done at the correct pace, if done right with other suitable dogs, the earlier you start socialising them the better (jabs permitting obviously). As for all this dogs should be stood around like statues and not play with other dogs nonsense. Working dogs should have time when theyre working and just like us time to let their hair down to, a dog that is simply exposed to work and nothing else 24/7 I will guarantee won't work as well as a dog equally well trained that has "time off".

Anyone claiming to be a brilliant trainer who can't if needs be, bring their dog back under control while it enjoys charging around, just being a dog, with others maybe needs to do some more learning. If people are so worried that letting their dog have a free play with other dogs might wreck their training, what happens when you get an unintentional exposure by someone else's unruly dog? I would suggest your not as in control of your dog as you claim.

I have and have seen some exceptionally trained dogs and the ones that can free run with others will also come back if I want, they know the difference between work and play and down time is as important as work time, especially if you want the best out of them. 

Edited by 12gauge82
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I've never claimed to be a brilliant trainer but I know what I want from my dog , at 5 months and the attention span of a gnat the training just consists of small amounts without setting the dog up to fail. Allowing him to run about with some random dog will just cause problems that are not needed , he has as much time as he wants to switch off and play about but in the confines of home at the moment. He has been introduced to some other dogs of my choosing as these dogs will respond to recall so eliminating a problem of dogs clearing off anywhere. I am well aware of the ability of each step of his training and the dog's ability to absorb what is being asked of it.

 

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46 minutes ago, B725 said:

I've never claimed to be a brilliant trainer but I know what I want from my dog , at 5 months and the attention span of a gnat the training just consists of small amounts without setting the dog up to fail. Allowing him to run about with some random dog will just cause problems that are not needed , he has as much time as he wants to switch off and play about but in the confines of home at the moment. He has been introduced to some other dogs of my choosing as these dogs will respond to recall so eliminating a problem of dogs clearing off anywhere. I am well aware of the ability of each step of his training and the dog's ability to absorb what is being asked of it.

 

Appoliges if my post appeared aimed at you, it wasn't. 

Your post appears to be both good practice and common sense from what you've said. 

 

Alot depends on what you want out of a dog. Alot of people don't need a well trained working dog and just want a family pet that can also pick up, and theres nothing wrong with that. 

The other problem is some of these dog Training shows, they seem to show the same thing all the time and imply every problem can be fixed by being 'alpha' and 'pack leader', it's really just advice for complete novices and people who literally let there dogs run a mock, in reality dog training is far more in depth and dogs are far more complex than that, every dog has its own personality, strengths and weaknesses and people who don't recognise and understand how they think and learn will never get the best out of them as a pet or a working partner. 

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No apology needed, I just want the best trained dog I can , my original post was that the woman I spoke to simply couldn't grasp why I refused. You are correct about the complexities of training and most people are clueless about it and even about the dog's personality. The ultimate goal will be that the dog will go beating, picking up and a peg dog when required. From a lot of working dog's I've seen that would be an impossibility but that is why I will put in the hour's and hour's of training. 👍👍

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