Making a better country.

[Gordon R]

Quote

 

Comparing the cost of testing against years and years of not having to treat so many illnesses/diseases is just wrong. (won't say what I was tempted to say)

The cost of re-vamping the whole NHS pales into insignificance when compared to the savings.

 

I trust you have the figures to back up that quantum leap in logic.

I also trust you are a man / woman of your word - so farewell. Your juvenile offerings will be missed. 🙂

[Lloyd90]

1 hour ago, Gordon R said:

The suggestion is testing every five years, which is far too long a gap. Why restrict it to blood tests? Yearly urine tests, yearly MRI scans, bone density scans, diabetes checks. Where do you stop?

Aside from finding the staff to do all these tests, the vast majority will be negative. Do the early pick up savings, outweigh the cost of unnecessary tests.

On paper, it sounds reasonable, but totally impractical. 

 

Absolutely, and the amount of negative tests will take so long to do, get the results etc that I doubt it would pick anyone up early, because the system would be so overwhelmed, or so massively expensive. 

[TIGHTCHOKE]

40 minutes ago, toxo said:

Comparing the cost of testing against years and years of not having to treat so many illnesses/diseases is just wrong. (won't say what I was tempted to say)

The cost of re-vamping the whole NHS pales into insignificance when compared to the savings.

Anyway I can't be ***** to even try to work out you lot any more so this is adieu. I'll leave you to squirm (Or not in most of your cases) while your precious leader tells a lot more lies in the house in a few minutes.

BYE

Bye!

[discobob]

He has been a member here for 12 years (TOXO/TOXIC) with 470 posts, pops up and starts having a go - I do wonder if he has had a change in circumstances that is affecting his behavior. If so I hope he gets it sorted.

[udderlyoffroad]

8 minutes ago, Lloyd90 said:

Absolutely, and the amount of negative tests will take so long to do, get the results etc that I doubt it would pick anyone up early, because the system would be so overwhelmed, or so massively expensive. 

And yet....other countries are doing something similar - admittedly slightly more targeted than the OP's suggestion - and spend per capita less on healthcare, with better outcomes for patients?

Just what will it take for people to admit that the NHS is the wrong model?  Literally nobody else in the world does it the way we do it...and guess what, they live longer, and in most case spend less on healthcare!

[discobob]

4 minutes ago, udderlyoffroad said:

And yet....other countries are doing something similar - admittedly slightly more targeted than the OP's suggestion - and spend per capita less on healthcare, with better outcomes for patients?

Just what will it take for people to admit that the NHS is the wrong model?  Literally nobody else in the world does it the way we do it...and guess what, they live longer, and in most case spend less on healthcare!

A guy I was reffing the other week who is undergoing treatment told me that in this country - for targeted treatment - they only test for two genes to see if some is available - whereas in the US they test for over 40 of them.

In Wales they use a ducking stool!!

[JohnfromUK]

14 hours ago, toxo said:

everybody went to Phlebotomy and they took enough blood to test for everything

There was a set up in the USA called Theranos who (in simple terms) claimed to be developing a system of diagnosing all sorts of ailments present and possible future from simple blood tests.  Theranos as a start-up business grew to a valuation of a $10bn corporation in 2015 ........ and ended up in the fraud court.  Makes interesting reading.  https://www.investopedia.com/articles/investing/020116/theranos-fallen-unicorn.asp

[discobob]

12 minutes ago, JohnfromUK said:

There was a set up in the USA called Theranos who (in simple terms) claimed to be developing a system of diagnosing all sorts of ailments present and possible future from simple blood tests.  Theranos as a start-up business grew to a valuation of a $10bn corporation in 2015 ........ and ended up in the fraud court.  Makes interesting reading.  https://www.investopedia.com/articles/investing/020116/theranos-fallen-unicorn.asp

There is actually a tv series that has been made on this - it is on my "to watch" list

I don't think it is on UK channels yet

[Lloyd90]

1 hour ago, discobob said:

A guy I was reffing the other week who is undergoing treatment told me that in this country - for targeted treatment - they only test for two genes to see if some is available - whereas in the US they test for over 40 of them.

In Wales they use a ducking stool!!

In the US they also pay for those 40’ tests, and millions and millions of their populace get no health care at all. 
 

I am sure our Health system would be a lot better if we stopped providing health care to millions and millions of people. 
 

Who gets to decide who’s worth of health care and who isn’t? 🤷‍♂️😬

[Gordon R]

I'm sure toxo has the answer, but sadly can't provide it after his farewell.

[Poor Shot]

Toxo may be onto something there. Not necessarily periodical blood tests but I'd say having periodical checkups and a chance to talk with with a GP would be a good idea. I know there are millions of people out there who wouldn't bother to see a doctor about most minor ailments until they actually turn out to be serious but would probably would mention something like a recurring headache or cough to them in an annual checkup. How often do you see news stories about the young mum dying from lung cancer or a brain tumor because her months of headaches or coughing turned out to be serious and now it's too late to really do anything apart from provide very expensive palliative care and pick up the pieces afterwards.

I'm not sure if your standard NHS GP does offer this but the last time I seen my GP was to have a vaccination to enter Mexico In 2011. Apart from a mass text to tell people to stop calling the surgery about COVID vaccinations I haven't heard from them since. I can't recall ever having a call to remind me to book a checkup from my GP but my dentist pesters me every six months. 

I don't know what the answer is but I think only having access to healthcare when your sick is not the way forward. So much more could be picked up earlier if actually seeing a GP wasn't such a pain in the ***. 

[JohnfromUK]

1 minute ago, Poor Shot said:

I'm not sure if your standard NHS GP does offer this but the last time I seen my GP was to have a vaccination

To be fair to GPs, I have an 'annual review' with a nurse/health practitioner in which blood is taken and tested (cholesterol, glucose/sugars, kidney and liver operation indicators, PSA) mainly because I take long term medications (statin and blood pressure regulators) that can have side effects.  They also do your weight, height, BMI (telling off if over BMI of 25), and a quiz on lifestyle - exercise, smoking (for those who do), diet, drinking (and you get a telling off if you are over 14 units a week).   From all of that you get a follow up result when blood tests are back (few days) and possibly a lecture on what you are doing wrong, but that tends to be by phone from Dr. IF there is something to cause concern.

[Poor Shot]

1 minute ago, JohnfromUK said:

To be fair to GPs, I have an 'annual review' with a nurse/health practitioner in which blood is taken and tested (cholesterol, glucose/sugars, kidney and liver operation indicators, PSA) mainly because I take long term medications (statin and blood pressure regulators) that can have side effects.  They also do your weight, height, BMI (telling off if over BMI of 25), and a quiz on lifestyle - exercise, smoking (for those who do), diet, drinking (and you get a telling off if you are over 14 units a week).   From all of that you get a follow up result when blood tests are back (few days) and possibly a lecture on what you are doing wrong, but that tends to be by phone from Dr. IF there is something to cause concern.

That's good but as you stated, you only really get that because you are already sick or have a long term illness which requires additional and more frequent attention.

Now imagine that the same service could be extended to the masses in the same way that a dental checkup is then improvements in the overall health of the nation could be made and would probably be cheaper overall. 

I'd even be willing to pay towards it in the same way that I pay for my NHS dental checkup. That's not to say I would be willing or be able to pay hundreds of £'s to go private or be able to pay the true full cost of that appointment unfortunately. 

[JohnfromUK]

8 minutes ago, Poor Shot said:

That's good but as you stated, you only really get that because you are already sick or have a long term illness which requires additional and more frequent attention.

Yes, that's true, though I believe in our surgery annual blood pressure and cholesterol check is offered to the 'older' though I'm not sure what age that is?  Also we have screening (PSA is offered on request to males over 50 I think), bowel cancer is offered to all over 60's (every 2 years?) and aortic aneurysm screening is offered to all over 65 males.  In addition glaucoma screening is offered free (by opticians) every year if there is family history - so overall, we do get some 'proactive' screening.

8 minutes ago, Poor Shot said:

in the same way that a dental checkup

It is MUCH harder for me to get a dental check up.  I now have to pay for any dental work (and that includes checkups) privately.

Edited April 19, 2022 by JohnfromUK

[12gauge82]

I'd set the country up to reward the workers. If your on benefits unnecessarily or a multi national business owner employing thousands on minimum wage, you'd be forced to pay into the system. 

It would make a good start. 

[Mice!]

3 hours ago, Poor Shot said:

Now imagine that the same service could be extended to the masses in the same way that a dental checkup is then improvements in the overall health of the nation could be made and would probably be cheaper overall. 

Because you pay for a check up, your probably in and out in 3 mins and I think it was £17.50 last time I went.

Then any work needed goes on top, easy money for the dentists. 

[Gordon R]

If this was started now, where are the extra staff needed to conduct and analyse the results? It could be many, many years before this paid off, if indeed it did pay off. 

The NHS can't cope with what is has, but toxo's master plan would impose a massive burden right now. Scrub cancer treatment, let's do some speculative tests and cross our fingers it pays off.

I wish he could return to explain all of this.

[Houseplant]

I've skimmed read the thread. 

Medicine is the ambulance at the bottom of the cliff. Prevention of disease, especially diabetes, hypertension and heart disease is a good thing for patients and public health service finances in the long run, but requires huge investment in the short term. We are not very good at it in the western world. Additionally, this is a much bigger issue of lifestyle factors such as diet, smoking and exercise which you may/may not believe is related to socioeconomic status depending upon your political stance. Either way, medicine cannot fix those things. 

Encouraging healthy lifestyles and preventative medicine is a good thing, but doing frequent blood tests on everybody would be a massive waste of resources for relatively little return. Every blood test result must be taken in context of the patient sitting in front of you. An abnormal blood test in isolation from clinical assessment is of very little value most of the time. 

[Lloyd90]

5 minutes ago, Houseplant said:

I've skimmed read the thread. 

Medicine is the ambulance at the bottom of the cliff. Prevention of disease, especially diabetes, hypertension and heart disease is a good thing for patients and public health service finances in the long run, but requires huge investment in the short term. We are not very good at it in the western world. Additionally, this is a much bigger issue of lifestyle factors such as diet, smoking and exercise which you may/may not believe is related to socioeconomic status depending upon your political stance. Either way, medicine cannot fix those things. 

Encouraging healthy lifestyles and preventative medicine is a good thing, but doing frequent blood tests on everybody would be a massive waste of resources for relatively little return. Every blood test result must be taken in context of the patient sitting in front of you. An abnormal blood test in isolation from clinical assessment is of very little value most of the time. 

Diabetes, hyper tension and heart disease could be largely avoided by the majority of the population if they weren’t so fat, didn’t eat as much junk, got more exercise and drank and smoked less. 
 

People don’t want to work for it.
 

They want to take a pill and carry on doing what they want. 

[enfieldspares]

9 hours ago, Lloyd90 said:

In the US they also pay for those 40’ tests, and millions and millions of their populace get no health care at all. 
 

And do you not think that in the UK we don't pay for those tests? The NHS is not free! It is paid for. By us, all of us, through income tax, VAT, vehicle excise duty, stamp duty, inheritance tax, national insurance, and etc., etc.. Yes we don't get our wallets out at the point of delivery but we certainly get the money taken out of them later. 

[Houseplant]

37 minutes ago, Lloyd90 said:

Diabetes, hyper tension and heart disease could be largely avoided by the majority of the population if they weren’t so fat, didn’t eat as much junk, got more exercise and drank and smoked less. 
 

People don’t want to work for it.
 

They want to take a pill and carry on doing what they want. 

Yes, that was my point, although obviously not clearly made. There is more to this discussion than medicine, or indeed medicines. 

[Lloyd90]

32 minutes ago, enfieldspares said:

And do you not think that in the UK we don't pay for those tests? The NHS is not free! It is paid for. By us, all of us, through income tax, VAT, vehicle excise duty, stamp duty, inheritance tax, national insurance, and etc., etc.. Yes we don't get our wallets out at the point of delivery but we certainly get the money taken out of them later. 

No, we don’t pay for the 40+ tests, because as you say, they don’t run them to begin with. 
 

I have experienced this myself recently. “It’s probably nothing, go away and take some Renee”. 

“Oh you’ve tried that? Try some buscopan!… it’s unlikely to be anything sinister at your age so we won’t bother with the tests.” 
 

I am aware that the NHS is paid for, but as you say they don’t do a lot of the stuff.
 

I am also aware of the tax burden, I pay a lot of tax, although probably consider myself to be in a fortunate position to be a higher earner / higher rate tax payer in the first place… it certainly beats the days when I had 3-4 low levels jobs I would bounce between just to try and make up £200 a week with no security or sickness etc. 

 

 

Unfortunately, There are many many people who are taking out of the system that don’t pay anything back in. 
 

There are also many many people who pay a small amount of tax, but the amount they pay doesn’t even come close to covering the amount of public services they have available to them or use.  
 

Someone not working will pay in nothing - £0 contribution. 

 

Someone who is 23+ years old on a minimum wage of £9.50 an hour will earn £18,278 a year (based on 37 hours per week). 
 

Out of that money they will pay £1,141.60 tax, and £1,112.74 national insurance. 
 

£2,254.34 total contribution. 
 

According to the OONS public expenditure data, 21.9% of peoples taxes goes towards health spending. 
 

So for that average minimum wage worker that’s under £500 a year. 
 

 

The system relies on the fact that lots of people pay in and don’t use the system, to cover the cost of the people that use it a lot. 

[pigeon controller]

I was an avid blood donor and managed to release a hundred and nine donations prior to the age restriction, as a thank you they could test your blood as they do take test samples for matching etc. This would encourage people to give, also the blood is tested prior to storage so is in the system. 

[Vince Green]

12 minutes ago, udderlyoffroad said:

Indeed, pretty standard practice in developed nations, and it's not limited to 5-star premium healthcare.  For the simple reason that not only is prevention better than cure, invariably it's cheaper!

Meanwhile it takes 4 weeks to register with a GP in our wonderful NHS.

Only cheaper if you don't look at the bigger picture. An aging population costs much more in the long run, not just healthcare but all the add ons

[Vince Green]

18 hours ago, udderlyoffroad said:

 

Just what will it take for people to admit that the NHS is the wrong model?  Literally nobody else in the world does it the way we do it...and guess what, they live longer, and in most case spend less on healthcare!

I liken the NHS to the magnolia tree in my in-law's front garden. Its grown so out of control over the years because they never would allow anyone to prune it