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Lead ammunition consultation to launch 6 May


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2 minutes ago, Vince Green said:

No I'm not telling you because you will phone him up and start asking him questions.  I know what you are like, I've been warned about you in the past

😂 Thought not! 
I just thought he might have some bargains in his ‘closing down/everything must go’ sale! 😄

I can’t phone up someone who only exists in your imagination! 

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1 hour ago, enfieldspares said:

Well as we may know from the rallying cry "Balle D et le revance pour Alsace Lorraine" (Balle D and revenge for Alsace Lorraine) the French in 1898 were using an all bronze bullet in their Lebel rifles. Known as Balle D the world's first spitzer miltary rifle bullet and at the time as revolutionary to war on the land as would later be the dreadnought battleship on the sea. Given that they issued the rounds into the millions I wonder if we've lost the knowledge of how to make monometal bullets in volume at cheap cost? As I am supposing that it wasn't merely a matter of low wages in ammunition factories being a factor?

I've got some that I've picked up off the battle field at Verdun years ago.

They didn't stick with them for that long but you raise an interesting question.

I believe they were cast. But the ammunition required for an infantry soldier doesn't need to be that accurate.  Good point though

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2 hours ago, Whitebridges said:

The end draws nigh. 

That's it I'll end my BASC membership at the next renewal. 

I seriously doubt it. 
I wouldn’t be in a rush to make any rash decisions on the basis of someone’s imaginary friend, that’s how religions start! 
Personally I think we’ll be ok. There’ll no doubt be a period of transition and frustration, but we’ll get there. 
Look at all the panic there was about not being able to shoot steel through non steel proofed guns, but you can. 
At the Shooting Show the other week I was looking at a nice gun with a full set of Teagues, and during the course of conversation with one of the stall holders I mentioned I wasn’t bothered about a lack of steel proofing, to which he replied ‘well your chokes will take care of that anyhow, because they are steel proofed’. So there is a bargaining point right there for all you folk who are trying to sell your steel shot proofed choked but otherwise just nitro proofed guns, when the dealer says he can’t give you what you’re asking cos it ain’t steel shot proofed! If they can sell them on that basis then so can you. 🙂

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I'm not sure lead free bullets will stop long range target shooting. If everyone is using lead free then you'll be competing fairly so I'm not sure any lack of accuracy (if any) matters. As for cost, a quick look suggests 20p a round more, as powder and primers have risen by a similar amount going lead isn't the only factor in costs. 

Shorter range gallery rifle shooting could well suffer as competitors can shoot 1,000s of rounds a year of .22 or cast lead .38/357/44 etc where costs could well matter and I'm not sure there are any suitable alternatives yet. (Just had a look for lead free .357s and they seem to be about 10 times the price in the US!)

Edited by Windswept
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9 hours ago, enfieldspares said:

Well as we may know from the rallying cry "Balle D et le revance pour Alsace Lorraine" (Balle D and revenge for Alsace Lorraine) the French in 1898 were using an all bronze bullet in their Lebel rifles. Known as Balle D the world's first spitzer miltary rifle bullet and at the time as revolutionary to war on the land as would later be the dreadnought battleship on the sea. Given that they issued the rounds into the millions I wonder if we've lost the knowledge of how to make monometal bullets in volume at cheap cost? As I am supposing that it wasn't merely a matter of low wages in ammunition factories being a factor?

To the point and relevant as always.

For Vince Green - All military ranges eg. STANTA, Barton Road would be strictly off-limits for monolithic bullets. Only lead allowed, presumably because they understand exactly what a monolithic bullet does when it enters and exits the sand at the butts. That leaves only Bisley in this neck of the woods, that is until they reach the same conclusions as the MOD have.

 

 

Edited by mick miller
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2 hours ago, Windswept said:

I'm not sure lead free bullets will stop long range target shooting. If everyone is using lead free then you'll be competing fairly so I'm not sure any lack of accuracy (if any) matters. As for cost, a quick look suggests 20p a round more, as powder and primers have risen by a similar amount going lead isn't the only factor in costs. 

Shorter range gallery rifle shooting could well suffer as competitors can shoot 1,000s of rounds a year of .22 or cast lead .38/357/44 etc where costs could well matter and I'm not sure there are any suitable alternatives yet. (Just had a look for lead free .357s and they seem to be about 10 times the price in the US!)

We compete against shooters from Australia, New Zealand, South Africa, Canada India etc every year in The Queens at Bisley

They are not going to come if they can't use their ammunition.

The perceived wisdom suggests that faster twist barrels are needed for lead free bullets. How many people are going to shell out a grand for a new barrel if there is no guarantee it will work?

These people are not going to compete with second best. Its not in their DNA.

They spend a lot of money and time competing. They don't say oh well we are all in the same boat now

 

The serious. 22 shooters use Eley Tenex and a lot of clubs have outdoor ranges still. Is there anything of that standard in the lead free ?

 

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My point is Vince, there will likely be no competitive shooting with lead free on any range. Effectively ending target shooting in the UK. 

It won't take long for the boys at Bisley to work out that the backstops require a serious rethink on a safety basis to even consider monolithic bullets to be used. 

It's simply a removal of firearms via the back door, most people other than dyed in the wool deer stalkers will simply give up. 

I'm considering it myself. May retain a stalking rifle for the moment but I'm thinking of shifting everything else on. 

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If there are allowances for Olympic standard, professional clay shooters how will any young decent shooter get to compete to be able to become an Olympic shooter, there will be no next generation. 

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49 minutes ago, mick miller said:

My point is Vince, there will likely be no competitive shooting with lead free on any range. Effectively ending target shooting in the UK. 

It won't take long for the boys at Bisley to work out that the backstops require a serious rethink on a safety basis to even consider monolithic bullets to be used. 

It's simply a removal of firearms via the back door, most people other than dyed in the wool deer stalkers will simply give up. 

I'm considering it myself. May retain a stalking rifle for the moment but I'm thinking of shifting everything else on. 

Where will you shift everything else to, if there’s no market for them? 

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22 minutes ago, Scully said:

Where will you shift everything else to, if there’s no market for them? 

Currently, there is. Might as well make hay whilst the sun shines, there's always archery. 

I've been getting quite into that recently, it's an enjoyable past time that I can do on my own garden. 

As I said, likely keep the stalking rifle as I already shoot with copper in that, no problems other than it's effectiveness is definitely lacking compared to lead, stuff still falls over it just takes longer but what's a bit of ethics compared to saving the environment from all that toxic lead. 

Begs the question though, what are we to do with all the flashing on roofs and the contaminated rainwater run off? 

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There was no market for handguns ( unless to dealers ) from the moment it was suggested they may be banned. I haven’t read it yet, but according to this weeks ST the government has called for a complete ban on lead. 
There is minimal risk from lead flashing and water pipes because it isn’t eroded by water as far as I know. 

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2 minutes ago, Scully said:

There was no market for handguns ( unless to dealers ) from the moment it was suggested they may be banned. I haven’t read it yet, but according to this weeks ST the government has called for a complete ban on lead. 
There is minimal risk from lead flashing and water pipes because it isn’t eroded by water as far as I know. 

Not everyone catches on as quickly, may as well take advantage of that. 

Just this week my pal has rebarreled two rifles on 243, if folk were aware then they wouldn't be choosing a 243 barrel as a replacement. 6.5mm or 308 would be a better choice. 

If lead flashing doesn't erode in water, how come lead bullets do? 

Archery is fun, you should try it before prices go up. 

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Quick screenshot from some NHS information site regarding the lead water pipes. The last metre or so of pipe going into my house is lead. Funny thing is the pipe leading from the road is blue plastic yet they left that small bit of lead behind rather than use an extra metre to get it into the house 

Screenshot_20220519-100228_Chrome.jpg

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Best of luck with that then, sincerely; I won’t be giving up anytime soon. 

I was led to believe that water running over or through lead had no effect on it; it may be total ******** of course! 
I was into archery a long time ago, and know a few who are really into the modern high tech stuff. The long range sport has its appeal but for me not so much as anything which goes bang! 

Just now, Rob85 said:

Quick screenshot from some NHS information site regarding the lead water pipes. The last metre or so of pipe going into my house is lead. Funny thing is the pipe leading from the road is blue plastic yet they left that small bit of lead behind rather than use an extra metre to get it into the house 

Screenshot_20220519-100228_Chrome.jpg

There you go then, total ********! 😀

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10 minutes ago, Scully said:

There is minimal risk from lead flashing and water pipes because it isn’t eroded by water as far as I know. 

Ah..... the minimal risk in eating game shot with lead and the same proven minimal risk to the environment 

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Just now, 8 shot said:

Ah..... the minimal risk in eating game shot with lead and the same proven minimal risk to the environment 

I have always stated this and never disputed it. You won’t find me stating anywhere in any post on this forum that game shot consumed lead poses more than a minimal risk as part of a healthy diet. Even the FSA and if I recall, the HSE has stated such.

As I’ve said many times, the proposed lead ban has nothing to do with its toxicity. It is driven purely by consumers and agendas. 

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5 minutes ago, Scully said:

Best of luck with that then, sincerely; I won’t be giving up anytime soon. 

I was led to believe that water running over or through lead had no effect on it; it may be total ******** of course! 
I was into archery a long time ago, and know a few who are really into the modern high tech stuff. The long range sport has its appeal but for me not so much as anything which goes bang! 

There you go then, total ********! 😀

May not be totally wrong as you look at houses from hundreds of years ago with very minimal signs of wear on lead flashing. The only reason I know about that lead pipe is because a few months ago it burst and I got to see it first hand. That pipe has been running to the house since 1953.

To me its plain to see this is all agenda driven, possibly with a little class warfare thrown in. As we know most of the lead emitting into the environment in the sport will be from the commercial driven shoots that host the 1000 bird days on the regular(this coming season aside due to shortage of eggs) this is the more visible side of shooting and has the image of tweed and wealth thrown in.

If the new regulations that are almost inevitable thanks to basc changed game shooting to non toxic and possibly decoyed pigeon shooting to non toxic but left the rifle side alone I reckon I could live with that. The issue will then be how is it policed without also changing all clay shooting to non toxic also to prevent people using clay cartridges on live quarry.

I can't see these proposals becoming anything other than a complete mess

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36 minutes ago, Scully said:

As I’ve said many times, the proposed lead ban has nothing to do with its toxicity.

But that is all I’ve heard from The BASC etc. May be we’ll never know ! May be this will sieve out the sh!t and we’ll hopefully end up with a completely new shooting body that truly represents shooting. 

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5 minutes ago, 8 shot said:

But that is all I’ve heard from The BASC etc. May be we’ll never know ! May be this will sieve out the sh!t and we’ll hopefully end up with a completely new shooting body that truly represents shooting. 

Well that would be good! 

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16 hours ago, Windswept said:

As for cost, a quick look suggests 20p a round more

For copper ? Try around 3 x more for the same calibre.

Try finding out which copper round suits your barrel best, and you could be into hundreds, before you even start.

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18 minutes ago, 8 shot said:

But that is all I’ve heard from The BASC etc. May be we’ll never know ! May be this will sieve out the sh!t and we’ll hopefully end up with a completely new shooting body that truly represents shooting. 

how right you are basc have done nothing but scream we are using something toxic! there’s the agenda make game shooting look more green acceptable while blaming my partners direct buying consumers who don’t want more expensive steel birds I’m glad lessons come in hard form! 

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10 minutes ago, Rewulf said:

For copper ? Try around 3 x more for the same calibre.

Try finding out which copper round suits your barrel best, and you could be into hundreds, before you even start.

Yep, for copper. Just had another look for 150gr 308s, 70p each vs about 50p for jacketed lead. I agree having to find something that works could be a pain and prices do vary.

I'm not defending the ban in any way, I'm just not giving up yet. What would be useful is hearing people's experience of lead free bullets.

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28 minutes ago, Windswept said:

Yep, for copper. Just had another look for 150gr 308s, 70p each vs about 50p for jacketed lead. I agree having to find something that works could be a pain and prices do vary.

Trust me , Ive been looking at copper rounds lately...
You do realise they come in boxes of 50 rather than 100 ?

A rough guide to say Hornady GMX vs ELD , they are slightly more expensive for the copper (around 10 %) but there is half as many in the box.
Move onto Yew tree or Peregrine premium copper, and they are 3x as much as an equivalent premium lead bullet.

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Ive just noticed a strange peculiarity 😄

Made up cartridges have very little price difference between copper and lead, no idea how that works, considering the price difference with 'heads' ?

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