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Lead ban


Chaz25
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33 minutes ago, Rimfireboy said:

At worst it looks like there will be at least five years to use your lead airgun ammo up. Also, indoor target shooting for airguns and rimfires will probably be exempt. Maybe also field target shooting if pellet catchers are used and 90% of used pellets can be collected. Same with smallbore ranges if bullet traps are in place. These exemptions are suggested in the proposals.

If it stays on track with the proposals then sure thats a doable time frame well for me anyhow I'm just not overly trusting of the powers that be, and I dont think we as a group command any political power, Im wondering in balance could sub 12 guns toy with larger calibres to trade off against lighter faster projectiles? if so I'll take that!

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As said in prior responses, I find it hard to understand how straightforward it would be to govern this- and by that, I don't mean "I intend to carry on with lead regardless" (though I've got every sympathy with those who do feel that way) but realistically whenever the cut off date is beyond which none of us us supposed to be firing lead, some will have had more of a stock of pellets than others, and at current prices I can't see too many just binning the residual stuff. As said before, lead has never been an issue before now but now with rocketing food prices it might have been handy to be able to shoot for the table without the powers that be trying to force duff and dangerous ammunition on us. Another policy that evidently has not been thought through 

Edited by Acerforestry
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I totally agree with he above .

When food prices are about to go apocalyptic  . Shooting your own is gona be a very viable option again .just when the government  want to make it harder to do .( I WILL feed my family ) 

But the bigger point is .

If lead pellets will still be for sale  after a major usage restriction  comes in (ie indoor use only )  most people  who want a tin for there guns are gonna look at £40 for lead free  or £15 for  lead and just by the  lead ones .there are literally  millions of people  with an airgun who haven't  the foggiest what's about to happen .

And will just buy a tin of lead and plink away as usual. 

Unless there is a restriction of lead  at sale then its a total waste  of time .

So really the only way of stopping lead from being shot is a zero lead  pellets sold  policy ,not a fineing  the end user  method .

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8 minutes ago, jimcorbett said:

Follow the consultation on BASC website and their advice on what we can do!

advice from basc are you joking their the morons who called for a lead ban and started screaming toxic toxic non stop better of with advice from the antis! 

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BASC has not called for a lead ban and BASC is challenging the proposals. BASC has been publishing regular updates on the lead ammunition review under post-Brexit UK REACH regulations since last year. 

BASC has been fighting lead ammunition bans since they were first proposed in a 1983 Royal Commission on Environmental Pollution report.

The European Chemicals Agency has been reviewing the use of lead ammunition since 2011 and BASC has been supporting the European Federation of Hunting Associations (FACE) in fighting these proposals.

The latest update on that is here:

https://basc.org.uk/maladministration-ruling-on-eu-lead-restriction-consultation/

In 2016, after a lengthy campaign by BASC and other shooting organisations , the UK government rejected proposals for a lead ban, , with the Secretary of State noting that the findings of the Lead Ammunition Group did not show the impacts of lead ammunition were significant enough to justify changing government policy.

More information and FAQs on the Health and Safety Executive lead restriction proposals is here:

https://basc.org.uk/lead/

 

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28 minutes ago, Conor O'Gorman said:

BASC has not called for a lead ban 

 

advise anyone reading the above to check out all the threads on a lead ban in general shooting and judge for your self WHO everyone holds responsible! 

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I gather a reason that this lead ban is proposed is to stop lead entering the food chain, it has never been a problem in the past with the end consumer suffering with lead ingestion. I understand that some big shoots sell on their shot game birds to the continental consumers and the larger supermarkets who dont want lead in the birds. From my own point of view I would rather chomp down on a small lead shot than a larger soft iron ball bearing. Its hard enough finding a dentists as it is. From the moment that soft iron is in the bird its going to oxidise (Rust) rapidly with the oxygen in the blood and moisture in the carcass, and in a hung bird...  well I just wouldn't fancy it on my menu.

Its hard trying to think what they will do about the good old.22 rimfire, there must be many millions fired in this country every year, again in my own experience they tend to stay pretty much intact, though may have a certain amount of deformity (when shooting rabbits for the pot) This is my own experience particularly when shooting with subsonic ammo. I think I am right in saying that there is a small amount of antimony in the bullet mix to make it a harder projectile and grip the rifling better to aid accuracy.

The same antimony (approx 4% mix) is added to air gun pellets to make them harder.  I just dont see the point of stopping lead for airguns, they are the perfect tool for shooting around buildings and in barns doing vermin clearance work, a tried and tested tool developed and refined over a 100 years or more and Britain has led the world in precharged airgun technology, now we want to throw it all away . As has been previously stated a lighter alternative pellet isn't accurate enough and most likely will push a 12 ft/lb gun over the legal limit and in all probability wont fit a rotary magazine.  When you consider the weight of lead, when shooting 50 12 gauge cartridges at the range or on pigeons compared to 50 airgun pellets it makes a complete nonsense to even include them.

This whole business is about gun removal by the back door, not health and safety.

Not enough common sense with the powers that be, A pox on them.

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10 hours ago, Flyboy1950 said:

I gather a reason that this lead ban is proposed is to stop lead entering the food chain, it has never been a problem in the past with the end consumer suffering with lead ingestion. I understand that some big shoots sell on their shot game birds to the continental consumers and the larger supermarkets who dont want lead in the birds. From my own point of view I would rather chomp down on a small lead shot than a larger soft iron ball bearing. Its hard enough finding a dentists as it is. From the moment that soft iron is in the bird its going to oxidise (Rust) rapidly with the oxygen in the blood and moisture in the carcass, and in a hung bird...  well I just wouldn't fancy it on my menu.

Its hard trying to think what they will do about the good old.22 rimfire, there must be many millions fired in this country every year, again in my own experience they tend to stay pretty much intact, though may have a certain amount of deformity (when shooting rabbits for the pot) This is my own experience particularly when shooting with subsonic ammo. I think I am right in saying that there is a small amount of antimony in the bullet mix to make it a harder projectile and grip the rifling better to aid accuracy.

The same antimony (approx 4% mix) is added to air gun pellets to make them harder.  I just dont see the point of stopping lead for airguns, they are the perfect tool for shooting around buildings and in barns doing vermin clearance work, a tried and tested tool developed and refined over a 100 years or more and Britain has led the world in precharged airgun technology, now we want to throw it all away . As has been previously stated a lighter alternative pellet isn't accurate enough and most likely will push a 12 ft/lb gun over the legal limit and in all probability wont fit a rotary magazine.  When you consider the weight of lead, when shooting 50 12 gauge cartridges at the range or on pigeons compared to 50 airgun pellets it makes a complete nonsense to even include them.

This whole business is about gun removal by the back door, not health and safety.

Not enough common sense with the powers that be, A pox on them.

Well said

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10 hours ago, Flyboy1950 said:

I gather a reason that this lead ban is proposed is to stop lead entering the food chain, it has never been a problem in the past with the end consumer suffering with lead ingestion. I understand that some big shoots sell on their shot game birds to the continental consumers and the larger supermarkets who dont want lead in the birds. From my own point of view I would rather chomp down on a small lead shot than a larger soft iron ball bearing. Its hard enough finding a dentists as it is. From the moment that soft iron is in the bird its going to oxidise (Rust) rapidly with the oxygen in the blood and moisture in the carcass, and in a hung bird...  well I just wouldn't fancy it on my menu.

Its hard trying to think what they will do about the good old.22 rimfire, there must be many millions fired in this country every year, again in my own experience they tend to stay pretty much intact, though may have a certain amount of deformity (when shooting rabbits for the pot) This is my own experience particularly when shooting with subsonic ammo. I think I am right in saying that there is a small amount of antimony in the bullet mix to make it a harder projectile and grip the rifling better to aid accuracy.

The same antimony (approx 4% mix) is added to air gun pellets to make them harder.  I just dont see the point of stopping lead for airguns, they are the perfect tool for shooting around buildings and in barns doing vermin clearance work, a tried and tested tool developed and refined over a 100 years or more and Britain has led the world in precharged airgun technology, now we want to throw it all away . As has been previously stated a lighter alternative pellet isn't accurate enough and most likely will push a 12 ft/lb gun over the legal limit and in all probability wont fit a rotary magazine.  When you consider the weight of lead, when shooting 50 12 gauge cartridges at the range or on pigeons compared to 50 airgun pellets it makes a complete nonsense to even include them.

This whole business is about gun removal by the back door, not health and safety.

Not enough common sense with the powers that be, A pox on them.

Not sure there are genuine accuracy issues with non-lead pellets. If you see above Tailoron’s target pictures, the non-lead grouping is only slightly more open than the lead example, not enough to fuss about in terms of hitting a rabbit’s skull or a jackdaw’s ‘engine room’ etc. I personally don’t care if my grouping is 1 inch or 1/2 an inch. Both sort vermin perfectly well.

As for legal 12ft lbs limits, that’s an entirely different matter and it will be interesting to see what derogations or legal tweaking may be necessary to maintain the balance of ethical/lethal shooting and ft lb values. I don’t think anyone has an answer to that one yet - as officialdom isn’t really awake to the downstream consequences of banning lead air rifle pellets. 

For my two penneth, I would suggest that legal energy limits are increased to 15 ft lbs. This would allow for higher chrono’ results re non-lead and bring us in line with some other major European countries. 

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3 hours ago, Fellside said:

Not sure there are genuine accuracy issues with non-lead pellets. If you see above Tailoron’s target pictures, the non-lead grouping is only slightly more open than the lead example, not enough to fuss about in terms of hitting a rabbit’s skull or a jackdaw’s ‘engine room’ etc. I personally don’t care if my grouping is 1 inch or 1/2 an inch. Both sort vermin perfectly well.

As for legal 12ft lbs limits, that’s an entirely different matter and it will be interesting to see what derogations or legal tweaking may be necessary to maintain the balance of ethical/lethal shooting and ft lb values. I don’t think anyone has an answer to that one yet - as officialdom isn’t really awake to the downstream consequences of banning lead air rifle pellets. 

For my two penneth, I would suggest that legal energy limits are increased to 15 ft lbs. This would allow for higher chrono’ results re non-lead and bring us in line with some other major European countries. 

Regarding energy levels, my hw99 went up by more than 2ft lbs using h&n ftt green compared to lead pellets. Also, they didn’t group at 25 yards but were ok at 30 yards so they must have been stabilising somewhere between 25 and 30. Not good enough for any serious application and much more expensive than lead, so a non starter really. In short, expensive and useless.

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1 hour ago, Rimfireboy said:

Regarding energy levels, my hw99 went up by more than 2ft lbs using h&n ftt green compared to lead pellets. Also, they didn’t group at 25 yards but were ok at 30 yards so they must have been stabilising somewhere between 25 and 30. Not good enough for any serious application and much more expensive than lead, so a non starter really. In short, expensive and useless.

There are air rifles and certain lead pellets that don’t suit each other either. Perhaps its the same with non-tox types…? Certainly the grouping picture above is encouraging. I think we just need some tweaking here and there re legal limits and manufacturing quality/weight etc. Time will tell as always. 

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The lead free pellets are totally unsafe .

Any further discussion  outside of this is a waste of breath. 

They MUST be banned from sale right away. I Dont really  care  how much they cost or how poor the perform .

They have to potential  to seriously injure due to the unpredictable  nature of the ricochets. 

I want to see a lobby to get them banned .

 

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On 20/05/2022 at 12:51, Chaz25 said:

I guess there is little we can do? so whats the plan? not tryed any of the lead free stuff I guess they lack the weight would that mean in time longer pellets or will we see larger calibre's come in to sub 12 guns? I feel I have more to ask than offer answers so what are your thoughts gents?

But theoretically could you not bore out your airport to get higher velocity.  A fast light pellet should be the same as a slower lead pellet

Another question, is this a ban on the sale of?  Because to can make your own. 

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56 minutes ago, NoBodyImportant said:

But theoretically could you not bore out your airport to get higher velocity.  A fast light pellet should be the same as a slower lead pellet

Another question, is this a ban on the sale of?  Because to can make your own. 

You probably could but why Should you have to if you your hardly going to take a air rifle on a driven game day to shoot pheasant and mostly there shot into pellet catchers 

imagine the effects where you are you can have any gun you want but it’s going to be illegal for you to have ammunition for it 

 

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54 minutes ago, NoBodyImportant said:

But theoretically could you not bore out your airport to get higher velocity.  A fast light pellet should be the same as a slower lead pellet

Another question, is this a ban on the sale of?  Because to can make your own. 

think you would have a higher velocity anyhow which could make its own problems as for the nature of the ban it looks to be about use so if you shoot on land or at a club there will come issues, clubs less so due to being able to recover the lead, as a side note me and my brother used to chop up nails and cotton wrap them up to size quite effective!

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2 hours ago, Ultrastu said:

The lead free pellets are totally unsafe .

Any further discussion  outside of this is a waste of breath. 

They MUST be banned from sale right away. I Dont really  care  how much they cost or how poor the perform .

They have to potential  to seriously injure due to the unpredictable  nature of the ricochets. 

I want to see a lobby to get them banned .

 

Are they more unsafe than a copper rifle round…? I’m only asking as I honestly don’t know.   

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4 minutes ago, Fellside said:

Are they more unsafe than a copper rifle round…? I’m only asking as I honestly don’t know.   

Well I guess a copper rifle round will be shot at distances probably  not much less that 75 yds .and the speeds and energy levels enough to shatter and deform the bullet .

Problem with airguns is the short distances and slow speeds  leads to bounce back .

I presume a deer shot on a Moor at 300 yds with a copper round -   who knows where the bullet went or did after it hit .? 

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1 minute ago, Ultrastu said:

Well I guess a copper rifle round will be shot at distances probably  not much less that 75 yds .and the speeds and energy levels enough to shatter and deform the bullet .

Problem with airguns is the short distances and slow speeds  leads to bounce back .

I presume a deer shot on a Moor at 300 yds with a copper round -   who knows where the bullet went or did after it hit .? 

Yes I see what you mean. However the stalkers I know say they don’t get the long shots anymore with copper - but certainly further than air rifle ranges I guess. I wouldn’t like to miss on rocky ground all the same. Lot to learn about this new technology. I think the market will start changing and adapting if demand is generated. Perhaps we will be offered a softer non-tox solution..?

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Posted (edited)

Think a bit of rule seperation is needed, shotguns using steel ok sure more likely for the game to be sold and if so a lack of lead has been asked for but for your own pot no and as for us pop gun lovers we are so much a low key user it would be nice to have that taken account of and that the pellet/slug has to ride the bore meaning a change is not so easy same for 22lr. Copper jacket rounds without lead core ok but using steel well that becomes close to amour piercing so all copper well it would I think lack the stabillity same with alloy core you have to find something that replicates lead, go too hard its becoming an AP round go too light more unstable flight, maybe steel powder or grains? brass? basically heavy and soft?

Edited by Chaz25
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1 hour ago, Chaz25 said:

Think a bit of rule seperation is needed, shotguns using steel ok sure more likely for the game to be sold and if so a lack of lead has been asked for but for your own pot no and as for us pop gun lovers we are so much a low key user it would be nice to have that taken account of and that the pellet/slug has to ride the bore meaning a change is not so easy same for 22lr. Copper jacket rounds without lead core ok but using steel well that becomes close to amour piercing so all copper well it would I think lack the stabillity same with alloy core you have to find something that replicates lead, go too hard its becoming an AP round go too light more unstable flight, maybe steel powder or grains? brass? basically heavy and soft?

There aren’t any rules yet….for any firearms. However if the HSE proposals are adopted, all shotgun cart’s for game will be lead free for ‘the pot’ or commercial supply. Same for ‘hunting’ with air rifles. If successful a phase out of 1.5 to 5 years is likely. 

Heavy and soft projectiles as an alternative to lead pellets is a great idea. The only trouble: available alternatives (bismuth and alloys containing tungsten powder) are fiercely expensive. 

It may be possible, for the humble air rifle pellet to be made from soft copper or a cheaper bismuth alloy….? Who knows? My crystal ball is a little hazy…🙂

 

 

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27 minutes ago, Fellside said:

There aren’t any rules yet….for any firearms. However if the HSE proposals are adopted, all shotgun cart’s for game will be lead free for ‘the pot’ or commercial supply. Same for ‘hunting’ with air rifles. If successful a phase out of 1.5 to 5 years is likely. 

Heavy and soft projectiles as an alternative to lead pellets is a great idea. The only trouble: available alternatives (bismuth and alloys containing tungsten powder) are fiercely expensive. 

It may be possible, for the humble air rifle pellet to be made from soft copper or a cheaper bismuth alloy….? Who knows? My crystal ball is a little hazy…🙂

 

 

Think Canada use steel shot for game so shotguns are in a way ok because there catered for, jacket rounds will have to conform to so thats all firearms my personal take is we maybe priced out of use, funny only time a minority group dont have a bunch of goons shouting down other people for us  or investing in "awareness drives" must be because its guns right! However the solution needs a low price point maybe like using  not full amalgamated cast iron in a plastic, hemp or coconut fiber/resin cup so it has weight and will deform and ride the bore without damage plus even in sub 12 there could be a rise in calibre to counter lack of weight but CSA will cause more drag and drop effective range etc, but yeah! hard to say think I'll go ask Elvis! y'know he liked guns too...

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16 minutes ago, Chaz25 said:

Think Canada use steel shot for game so shotguns are in a way ok because there catered for, jacket rounds will have to conform to so thats all firearms my personal take is we maybe priced out of use, funny only time a minority group dont have a bunch of goons shouting down other people for us  or investing in "awareness drives" must be because its guns right! However the solution needs a low price point maybe like using  not full amalgamated cast iron in a plastic, hemp or coconut fiber/resin cup so it has weight and will deform and ride the bore without damage plus even in sub 12 there could be a rise in calibre to counter lack of weight but CSA will cause more drag and drop effective range etc, but yeah! hard to say think I'll go ask Elvis! y'know he liked guns too...

👍

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All I’m saying is sailboats have lead keels and pellet molds are available online. Surly the law won’t apply to people shooting on their own land.   Fun fact, lead can be cut with a chainsaw. 25BBB754-0781-4C14-A1AF-902FEFF61EF4.jpeg.cd472218cdea88ab2a7da0ef303a7b8c.jpeg33E62CF5-2B4D-4CA3-86E8-030029161DB3.jpeg.f7ac92bc382b192d946259f741f2d24b.jpeg

I have 8 tons of lead stored up 

Edited by NoBodyImportant
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2 hours ago, NoBodyImportant said:

All I’m saying is sailboats have lead keels and pellet molds are available online. Surly the law won’t apply to people shooting on their own land.   Fun fact, lead can be cut with a chainsaw. 25BBB754-0781-4C14-A1AF-902FEFF61EF4.jpeg.cd472218cdea88ab2a7da0ef303a7b8c.jpeg33E62CF5-2B4D-4CA3-86E8-030029161DB3.jpeg.f7ac92bc382b192d946259f741f2d24b.jpeg

I have 8 tons of lead stored up 

A few season's hunting and some winter plinking you have there, have to ask how big is your airgun to need 8 tons 4 bore? 2 bore maybe? 😁

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