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BASC position on lead ammunition restriction proposals


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17 hours ago, Conor O'Gorman said:

BASC has published some more detail on its position on the Health and Safety Executive proposals to restrict the use of lead ammunition for outdoor recreational shooting in England, Wales and Scotland under the UK REACH regulations.

Conor,   Has BASC actually said that children under the age of 8 are likely to consume game meat in portions with a minimum size of 100g, as the HSE Restriction Report seems to imply?

“BASC and Countryside Alliance estimated in 2014 that 9,000 (midpoint of the range 5,500 – 12,500) children under the age of 8 from the UK shooting community consumed at least one game meal per week (all types of game, one portion assumed to be ≥ 100 g), averaged over the year (cited in (Green and Pain, 2019; LAG, 2015b)”

I rather suspect that BASC and CA might have provided only the info on the numbers of children who eat game, and that Green & Pain may have been the sole authors of the portion size assumption.  

=========================

Does anybody know who compiled the Restriction Report?  

Would HSE staff have left their organisation open to ridicule by excluding Public Health England’s Surveillance of Elevated Blood Lead in Children and the UK Health Security Agency’s Lead Exposure in Children Surveillance System from the consultation?

Would HSE staff have discarded all the portion size advice from NHS dieticians and health professionals, and chosen instead to promote estimates made by ornithologists who apparently lack any qualifications in medicine, child welfare, or human nutrition?   

Would HSE staff have written that:

  • “The highest consumers of game meat are hunters and their families” and
  • “No reliable BLL measurements in children from hunter families are available. No UK-specific information on the impact of game-meat consumption on BLL has been identified”,

but been too dim to spot the very obvious way of obtaining the missing data  -  collect some blood samples from children of families who do a lot of game shooting.   HSE should know a lot about the subject, because they already oversee thousands of blood-lead measurements each year, as required under the Control of Lead at Work Regulations, and publish a list more than 20 UK laboratories able to undertake the analyses.

I suspect outside consultants might have employed to write the Restriction Report, thereby protecting HSE staff from critism.   The style and content of the document are very reminiscent of numerous publications issued by a very small group of UK ornithologists on subjects related to shooting. 

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50 minutes ago, 8 shot said:

May be if nothing else comes from this is we end up with one decent organisation that represents ALL shooting interests.

Don’t we already have that? Isn't that the BSSC?  Aren’t they supposed to be the umbrella organisation which represents ALL shooting interests in the UK? 
Working well so far! 

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10 minutes ago, Scully said:

Don’t we already have that? Isn't that the BSSC?  Aren’t they supposed to be the umbrella organisation which represents ALL shooting interests in the UK? 
Working well so far! 

Oh! Come on that man, pay attention. 8 shot clearly stated, "decent".

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17 minutes ago, Scully said:

Don’t we already have that? Isn't that the BSSC?  Aren’t they supposed to be the umbrella organisation which represents ALL shooting interests in the UK? 
Working well so far! 

What, Brancaster Staithe Sailing Club?

They probably have shooters interests as much to the fore as our shooting organisations!  :cool1:

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8 minutes ago, wymberley said:

Oh! Come on that man, pay attention. 8 shot clearly stated, "decent".

My apologies; must have missed that bit! 🙂

2 minutes ago, TIGHTCHOKE said:

What, Brancaster Staithe Sailing Club?

 

It may as well be! 🙂

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2 hours ago, Newbie to this said:

But that is a mis-truth, if there is no difference, why do I need to go up 2 sizes in shot and why do I need to worry more about rebounds 

Not it's not. Steel is different, yes, but in the correct (larger) size, it gets just about the same results and that's what counts. That's why the hunters in the study couldn't tell the difference between steel and lead. I suggest you read the study. It is very detailed and based on observed data provided by hunters who were actually shooting live quarry.

People who keep wittering on about how steel inevitably creates more wounding (a claim disproved in the Texas study) are simply creating soundbites for the antis - as well as being factually wrong, of course. Their claims will come back to haunt them when lead is no longer available for most shotgun shooting; will they then simply give up, or carry on despite having branded themselves  as inhumane by virtue of the fact that they use steel? 

 

 

 

 

Edited by stagboy
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5 hours ago, Scully said:

What I am saying is that basically ‘what goes around comes around’, and you can bet your bottom dollar that as per usual, those organisation not involved in shooting live quarry, and the organisations representing them, rather than fighting for the retention of lead for all of us, will be getting busy lobbying in the fight for exemptions exclusively for themselves. 
You see if I’m wrong. 
As an aside. I find your claims of being ‘united’ highly hypocritical in light of previous posts you have made regarding driven shooting, given that you yourself are, or were, involved. 
It’s not me calling for a ban, but either lead is toxic or it’s not. 🤷‍♂️

Please explain...

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1 hour ago, stagboy said:

Not it's not. Steel is different, yes, but in the correct (larger) size, it gets just about the same results and that's what counts. That's why the hunters in the study couldn't tell the difference between steel and lead. I suggest you read the study. It is very detailed and based on observed data provided by hunters who were actually shooting live quarry.

People who keep wittering on about how steel inevitably creates more wounding (a claim disproved in the Texas study) are simply creating soundbites for the antis - as well as being factually wrong, of course. Their claims will come back to haunt them when lead is no longer available for most shotgun shooting; will they then simply give up, or carry on despite having branded themselves  as inhumane by virtue of the fact that they use steel? 

 

 

 

 

So there is a difference, so it was a mis-truth.

I never mentioned anything about wounding, just that steel is different in performance to lead, that is fact. If it wasn't then there would be no need to go up 2 sizes in shot.

Oh and let's not for get the added risk of rebounds.

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8 hours ago, Scully said:

You mean the same law that it is widely claimed by many finger pointers, that hasn’t prevented game shooters shooting wildfowl with lead? That one? 
Who is going to police legislation so easily prone to non compliance? Do you know just how many shoots take place nationwide throughout the week during the game season? 

What in your experience do people shoot wildfowl with in England? I only know a couple and they use steel. If lead shot was banned for live quarry then there would only be clay lead loads would everyone use these rather than more suitable steel loads? Then the game dealers, would they just ignore lead, would shoots risk it? 

I don't support the lead ban but I'm disappointed by attitude of some here which seems worse than the antis and orgs they are moaning about.

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10 minutes ago, Windswept said:

 I'm disappointed by attitude of some here which seems worse than the antis and orgs they are moaning about.

it’s called having your own opinion and not letting anyone bully you into changing it same as your doing right now by calling it poor attitude and moaning 

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55 minutes ago, Windswept said:

What in your experience do people shoot wildfowl with in England? I only know a couple and they use steel. If lead shot was banned for live quarry then there would only be clay lead loads would everyone use these rather than more suitable steel loads? Then the game dealers, would they just ignore lead, would shoots risk it? 

I don't support the lead ban but I'm disappointed by attitude of some here which seems worse than the antis and orgs they are moaning about.

So then are you happy with the way this has all been carried out?

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50 minutes ago, clangerman said:

it’s called having your own opinion and not letting anyone bully you into changing it same as your doing right now by calling it poor attitude and moaning 

I'm not the one moaning, I am surprised by the attitudes as said. And TC, I thought my comment about not supporting the ban would answer your question before you asked it?

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1 hour ago, Newbie to this said:

So there is a difference, so it was a mis-truth.

 

I meant no difference in performance, of course. Which is a major point, I'd have thought. But if petty semantics keep you happy, well, fine. Read the research yet?

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1 hour ago, Windswept said:

What in your experience do people shoot wildfowl with in England? I only know a couple and they use steel. If lead shot was banned for live quarry then there would only be clay lead loads would everyone use these rather than more suitable steel loads? Then the game dealers, would they just ignore lead, would shoots risk it? 

I don't support the lead ban but I'm disappointed by attitude of some here which seems worse than the antis and orgs they are moaning about.

Personally I don’t know any English wildfowlers, but speaking for myself when shooting wildfowl inland, I used steel. 
There was ( and possibly still is ) a lot of finger pointing and accusations as to whether all game shots did and do. 
If lead shot for live quarry is banned then there will quite possibly be those who for one reason or another, shoot clay loads through their non-steel shot proofed guns. As we all know, given the right circumstances clay loads are more than capable. 
Game dealers won’t buy lead shot game if they can’t sell it, but not every shoot or individual sells their shot game. Who will police it? 

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9 minutes ago, TIGHTCHOKE said:

And my question stands, are you happy with the way it has been handled?

No, but I couldnt blame just one organisation. I thought this review was going to happen a few years ago, so not caused by the 'voluntary' lead ban. 

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1 minute ago, Windswept said:

No, but I couldnt blame just one organisation. I thought this review was going to happen a few years ago, so not caused by the 'voluntary' lead ban. 

Really?

BASC have lead this, I am happy to blame them. They failed to consult their membership and lead everyone down the slippery slope in an attempt to save the commercial game shoots.

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7 minutes ago, TIGHTCHOKE said:

Really?

BASC have lead this, I am happy to blame them. They failed to consult their membership and lead everyone down the slippery slope in an attempt to save the commercial game shoots.

Do you honestly think whatever BASC did/does would/will change much? I've no idea if their voluntary move has hastened the HSE consultation or delayed it but it would have happened sooner or later.

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2 hours ago, stagboy said:

I meant no difference in performance, of course. Which is a major point, I'd have thought. But if petty semantics keep you happy, well, fine. Read the research yet?

So a 7.5 shot in steel has the same performance as a 7.5 shot in lead?

Let's not forget the increased risk of rebounds.

Edited by Newbie to this
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8 minutes ago, Windswept said:

Do you honestly think whatever BASC did/does would/will change much? I've no idea if their voluntary move has hastened the HSE consultation or delayed it but it would have happened sooner or later.

You wouldn't plead guilty before you know what your charged with. Hear the evidence first, which in this case is very flimsy...

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52 minutes ago, stagboy said:

I meant no difference in performance, of course. Which is a major point, I'd have thought. But if petty semantics keep you happy, well, fine. Read the research yet?

Take care with some of the research. The American idea of lethality or, put another way, 'baggable birds' is not necessarily the same as ours. The definition had to be rewritten during one of the big mortality trials.

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54 minutes ago, Windswept said:

Do you honestly think whatever BASC did/does would/will change much? I've no idea if their voluntary move has hastened the HSE consultation or delayed it but it would have happened sooner or later.

Oh well, that's alright then, NOT!

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12 hours ago, Bobba said:

You are trying to have a conversation with the deaf. 

It would appear so

can’t see the point in posting on our live forum and you’re not willing to answer any questions

And I’m currently a basc member😔

12 hours ago, Westley said:

££££££££££' s  ?

You can replace your lead service pipe from the outside stopcock to the property with plastic, AT YOUR EXPENSE.  It is highly likely that from that stopcock to the main water pipe, will remain as lead.

Yes exactly so there would be no point in replacing it unless the whole lot was replaced at the same time

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1 hour ago, TIGHTCHOKE said:

Really?

BASC have lead this, I am happy to blame them. They failed to consult their membership and lead everyone down the slippery slope in an attempt to save the commercial game shoots.

Having read a lot of the complete tosh on this thread a good job they didn’t consult there membership .

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