Price of shotguns

[TOPGUN749]

48 minutes ago, London Best said:

Wrong. 
I spent the first forty years of my shooting life shooting on a shoestring budget of precisely nothing.

Get real, no one does anything on a budget of nothing,someone has to pay!

[London Best]

2 minutes ago, TOPGUN749 said:

Get real, no one does anything on a budget of nothing,someone has to pay!

Push bike and a box of 25 cartridges every few weeks is virtually nothing. 
Of course, it’s a different World if you insist on wasting 100 cartridges at clay saucers every Sunday morning. Nowt wrong with that, of course, but stupid if you can’t afford it. You can still go shooting for virtually nothing.

[TIGHTCHOKE]

  

[Gerry78]

8 hours ago, Weihrauch17 said:

The whole point of a Lead Ban is to damage shooting, there is absolutely no risk to Public Health using Lead as we have been since 1782 or earlier and not a single person has had their health effected by it.  It is simply a back door attack on Shooting Sports.

Agree with your 1st point you are correct regarding lead shot it has never had a impact on public health But if we had to move to steel tomorrow for everything it would not effect me one bit I happily use standard steel for everything in my old and new guns 

1 hour ago, London Best said:

Push bike and a box of 25 cartridges every few weeks is virtually nothing. 
Of course, it’s a different World if you insist on wasting 100 cartridges at clay saucers every Sunday morning. Nowt wrong with that, of course, but stupid if you can’t afford it. You can still go shooting for virtually nothing.

Agree 80 % of my shooting is free regarding vermin control foxes pigeons crows all it cost me was a few rejections wrapping farmers doors My Wildfowling is low cost as well Regarding joining fees in clubs All thou. I don’t shoot much pheasants,partridges that’s my choice 

[Weihrauch17]

1 hour ago, Gerry78 said:

Agree with your 1st point you are correct regarding lead shot it has never had a impact on public health But if we had to move to steel tomorrow for everything it would not effect me one bit I happily use standard steel for everything in my old and new guns 

Agree 80 % of my shooting is free regarding vermin control foxes pigeons crows all it cost me was a few rejections wrapping farmers doors My Wildfowling is low cost as well Regarding joining fees in clubs All thou. I don’t shoot much pheasants,partridges that’s my choice 

It's not just shotguns though although small bore shotguns will be badly effected, it will cripple small bore rifles and air rifle use. 

[Gerry78]

52 minutes ago, Weihrauch17 said:

It's not just shotguns though although small bore shotguns will be badly effected, it will cripple small bore rifles and air rifle use. 

Another good point totally forgot about rifles I’d be interested to hear or see what alternatives they could bring out 👍👍

[Gas seal]

Maybe people are selling guns privately because gun dealers won’t take them. Gun shops must have a lot of used guns in stock and if they are not selling them why would they buy more. I agree shooting is a way of life and it doesn’t have to cost a fortune. Two of my friends are in their  eighties and will use a bike to go shooting, gun on cross bar. There own bikes not a tandem, not yet. 

 

 

[marsh man]

I know it is possible to go shooting Pigeons ect without a dog and certain areas of wild fowling like decoying geese , but if you want to go wildfowling , or rough shooting seriously you will need a working dog trained to a reasonable standard , the dog alone can be one of the dearest parts of shooting and they will cost at least something every day of the lives .

Touch wood mine are healthy and haven't been to the vets for a while but the feed stuff and the vitamins he take have gone up sky high , as an example , this week I bought a bag of Skinners dogs feed , not long ago it was under £20 a bag and when we went to the smaller game fairs I would buy 3 or 4 small bags as you would get a £5 voucher in each bag that could be used when you bought your next 15 kilo bag , this would then bring it down to about £13 / 14  a bag , now the bag I bought during the week was a few short of £30 .

Would I now go shooting without a dog ? , No , as much as I love Pigeon shooting and wildfowling by having a dog beside you is at least half the enjoyment when venturing out with a gun under your arm .

[Gerry78]

2 hours ago, marsh man said:

I know it is possible to go shooting Pigeons ect without a dog and certain areas of wild fowling like decoying geese , but if you want to go wildfowling , or rough shooting seriously you will need a working dog trained to a reasonable standard , the dog alone can be one of the dearest parts of shooting and they will cost at least something every day of the lives .

Touch wood mine are healthy and haven't been to the vets for a while but the feed stuff and the vitamins he take have gone up sky high , as an example , this week I bought a bag of Skinners dogs feed , not long ago it was under £20 a bag and when we went to the smaller game fairs I would buy 3 or 4 small bags as you would get a £5 voucher in each bag that could be used when you bought your next 15 kilo bag , this would then bring it down to about £13 / 14  a bag , now the bag I bought during the week was a few short of £30 .

Would I now go shooting without a dog ? , No , as much as I love Pigeon shooting and wildfowling by having a dog beside you is at least half the enjoyment when venturing out with a gun under your arm .

Agree MM Brings us back to the original thread regarding the price of guns There is a lot of panic regarding older guns not being worth anything due to steel shot now il admit I’m not 100 percent sure regarding Damascus barrels as I’ve never owned a shotgun with Damascus But what I am sure is that most older guns (non Damascus)will happily take standard steel If I was spending money on a dog. (Pup) or a new shotgun I’d spend a large percentage of my money on a dog from a good working stock then use the rest to buy a good 2nd hand gun as I’d be happy using standard steel I don’t use my dog on crows but happily bring him out on pigeons and definitely Wildfowling 

[JohnfromUK]

25 minutes ago, Gerry78 said:

But what I am sure is that most older guns (non Damascus) will happily take standard steel

That is all very well - but you cannot reliably get standard steel to suit the older 2 1/2" chambered guns.  Yes, it is made and has been tested by the various 'authorities'.  However it seems that it is not (yet anyway) actually available to buy from anywhere.  One source said that could get a minimum of 1000 (which is rather a lot to try) and others on this forum find they have had orders in with their suppliers, but those orders are not being fulfilled.  One suggestion I have heard anecdotally is that those who have tried some in an older lighter gun found the recoil punishing, but that at present is 'hear say'.

The main suppliers all 'intend' to supply steel in 2 1/2" cartridges - and I will happily buy a few boxes of any type - but I want to try several types before committing to buying 1000+ of one type.  As things stand, I will not try it in Damascus until I have tried in steel barrels.

Edited July 3, 2022 by JohnfromUK

[Gerry78]

Speaking myself to a gun shop owner he informed me that he was speaking to suppliers and they have every intention of supplying 2 1/2 cartridges but with what you say it could take time if I’m correct the phase out should be done by 2025 don’t (quote me on that ) My friend shot steel in He’s lighter 2 1/2INCH S/S he did say the same recoil was more 

[JohnfromUK]

9 minutes ago, Gerry78 said:

My friend shot steel in He’s lighter 2 1/2INCH S/S he did say the same recoil was more

That's interesting.  I think it was a gunmaker who said to me he believed that in light guns people were finding the recoil a problem.  They are certainly 'catalogued';

https://www.eleyhawkltd.com/game-load/grand-prix-traditional-steel-pro-eco

https://gamebore.com/uk/cartridge/game/12g-Regal-Steel-Bio-Wad

https://www.hullcartridge.co.uk/game/cartridges/imperial-traditional-steel

I would particularly like to try the Hull Cartridge offering as I use Hull Imperial Game now and 24g is likely to be a lower recoil than say the 30g of the Gamebore Regal.  However, my local supplier when asked - said he has a number of customers who would like to try them ......... but he has not heard of any actually supplied yet.

 

[enfieldspares]

35 minutes ago, JohnfromUK said:

That is all very well - but you cannot reliably get standard steel to suit the older 2 1/2" chambered guns. 

In an open choked gun using what, I am told Hull cartridges proposed factory weight of shot for 2 1/2" standard steel of 24 grams of English #4 (162 pellets) or #5 (207 pellets) with a roll turnover they will be useless of woodcock and marginal on partridge.

And in other maker's brands owing to that roll turnover expensive also. Simply put the pattern will have more holes in it than an old dish cloth but at a price well above a lead 28 gram load of English #7.

At Stapleford Park back in 2014 I tried a 28 gram load of lead English #4 in a half choked in both barrels BSA side by side. Birds were hit, yes, five by me on that first drive but every bird was came down wounded.

None were killed dead in the air. Most came down with a broken wing. I put the English #4 away for every subsequent drive and went back to using English #6 and every bird shot with those was killed dead.

Edited July 3, 2022 by enfieldspares

[JohnfromUK]

1 minute ago, enfieldspares said:

In an open choked gun using what, I am told is the proposed factory weight of shot for 2 1/2" standard steel of 21 grams of English #5 with a roll turnover they will be useless of woodcock and marginal on partridge. And owing to that roll turnover expensive also. Simply put the pattern will have more holes in it than an old dish cloth but at a price well above a lead 28 gram load of English #7.

Which is why I want to buy a couple of boxes to try.  The Hull Imperial steel is 24g, the Gamebore Regal 30g and the Eley Grand Prix 30g.  I am 'told' that they naturally pattern tighter (due to less deformation?).  I would be interested to try a couple of comparative patterns between steel and lead in the same gun.

Another question for me is whether our shooting landlord will accept the various 'biowads'.  At present (pre bio wads) he is adamant that we use fibre only.  The amount I shoot, maybe a couple of hundred cartridges at game a year - the price is maybe not a big issue - but I wouldn't particularly want to be paying tungsten/bismuth prices - and I suspect that they don't come in fibre wad anyway.

[Gerry78]

15 minutes ago, JohnfromUK said:

That's interesting.  I think it was a gunmaker who said to me he believed that in light guns people were finding the recoil a problem.  They are certainly 'catalogued';

https://www.eleyhawkltd.com/game-load/grand-prix-traditional-steel-pro-eco

https://gamebore.com/uk/cartridge/game/12g-Regal-Steel-Bio-Wad

https://www.hullcartridge.co.uk/game/cartridges/imperial-traditional-steel

I would particularly like to try the Hull Cartridge offering as I use Hull Imperial Game now and 24g is likely to be a lower recoil than say the 30g of the Gamebore Regal.  However, my local supplier when asked - said he has a number of customers who would like to try them ......... but he has not heard of any actually supplied yet.

 

My friend shoots a lot of gamebirds pheasants etc He was using He’s 2 1/2 inch S/S FOR walking up the cover crops with He’s pointer I’m not to sure what brand he was using but he was adamant that there was more of a kick He was of the opinion that he had to go up a size in pellets due to steel ballistics That was the information he provided 

[JohnfromUK]

2 minutes ago, Gerry78 said:

He was of the opinion that he had to go up a size in pellets due to steel ballistics

Yes, I believe that is correct, possibly even 2 sizes.  I can't comment on the recoil as I've not tried them yet.

[Scully]

1 hour ago, enfieldspares said:

In an open choked gun using what, I am told Hull cartridges proposed factory weight of shot for 2 1/2" standard steel of 24 grams of English #4 (162 pellets) or #5 (207 pellets) with a roll turnover they will be useless of woodcock and marginal on partridge.

And in other maker's brands owing to that roll turnover expensive also. Simply put the pattern will have more holes in it than an old dish cloth but at a price well above a lead 28 gram load of English #7.

At Stapleford Park back in 2014 I tried a 28 gram load of lead English #4 in a half choked in both barrels BSA side by side. Birds were hit, yes, five by me on that first drive but every bird was came down wounded.

None were killed dead in the air. Most came down with a broken wing. I put the English #4 away for every subsequent drive and went back to using English #6 and every bird shot with those was killed dead.

I’m not really sure you can say with much conviction that the patterns compared with lead will be blown unless you’ve actually tried them.
Isn’t steel supposed to pattern tighter than lead, due to the all enveloping wad? 
What do you intend to shoot and with what, in your .410? 

[browning123]

2 minutes ago, Scully said:

I’m not really sure you can say with much conviction that the patterns compared with lead will be blown unless you’ve actually tried them.
Isn’t steel supposed to pattern tighter than lead, due to the all enveloping wad? 
What do you intend to shoot and with what, in your .410? 

I’m also concerned what’s going to happen with .410 ammunition, I do a lot of pest control with my 410 hushpower also one other, both bored full choke.

[enfieldspares]

49 minutes ago, Scully said:

I’m not really sure you can say with much conviction that the patterns compared with lead will be blown unless you’ve actually tried them.
Isn’t steel supposed to pattern tighter than lead, due to the all enveloping wad? 
What do you intend to shoot and with what, in your .410? 

I hope they'd pattern tighter but you'll still only get 24 grams worth in #4 or #5 and my preference is for an evenly distributed pattern of smaller size shot rather than a tight centre and scattered margins. But in steel if you use #6 at range they shed velocity too quickly.

In the .410" it's squirrels and decoyed pigeons and I'll be using as always was my choice English #7 lead shot or nowadays English #7 1/2 lead shot (the same Eley .410" Trap Load I use for clays) for the feather and English lead #8 or lead #9 for the fur. The #9 is Lyalvale's Two Inch factory loading.

I've always never seen the sense in the once traditional load of English #5 in any .410". Even #6 in the .410" 2 1/2" Fourlong isn't enough count of pellets IMHO. And if non-lead becomes law I'll try the supposed fantastic "game changing" hevishot that the Americans laud for .410" on turkey.

 

Edited July 3, 2022 by enfieldspares

[Scully]

1 hour ago, enfieldspares said:

I hope they'd pattern tighter but you'll still only get 24 grams worth in #4 or #5 and my preference is for an evenly distributed pattern of smaller size shot rather than a tight centre and scattered margins. But in steel if you use #6 at range they shed velocity too quickly.

In the .410" it's squirrels and decoyed pigeons and I'll be using as always was my choice English #7 lead shot or nowadays English #7 1/2 lead shot (the same Eley .410" Trap Load I use for clays) for the feather and English lead #8 or lead #9 for the fur. The #9 is Lyalvale's Two Inch factory loading.

I've always never seen the sense in the once traditional load of English #5 in any .410". Even #6 in the .410" 2 1/2" Fourlong isn't enough count of pellets IMHO. And if non-lead becomes law I'll try the supposed fantastic "game changing" hevishot that the Americans laud for .410" on turkey.

 

You hope? So you don’t know. 
You give the impression lead is flawless, it isn’t.
Forget about ‘scattered margins’ that you don’t even know will occur as yet ( they're completely irrelevant anyhow, regardless of shot type ) and forget about trap loads or anything smaller than 5’s because you won’t be using them, not on live quarry anyhow. 
We have to move on and learn to work with what we’ll have when the dust settles; the wildfowlers did. 

 

[wymberley]

3 hours ago, JohnfromUK said:

Yes, I believe that is correct, possibly even 2 sizes.  I can't comment on the recoil as I've not tried them yet.

To match the energy levels - which I know isn't always necessary, but when it is - it's 3 sizes.

[Old farrier]

47 minutes ago, wymberley said:

To match the energy levels - which I know isn't always necessary, but when it is - it's 3 sizes.

Which puts you into the hp steel size if you normally use a 6 so for the shooting of a light 2.1/2 chamber gun puts the option out of the equation 

there is very little talk about the large shot bridging the bore and the possibility of ring bulges with the extra pressure that it can create nearer the muzzle 

 

 

 

[Scully]

24 minutes ago, Old farrier said:

Which puts you into the hp steel size if you normally use a 6 so for the shooting of a light 2.1/2 chamber gun puts the option out of the equation 

there is very little talk about the large shot bridging the bore and the possibility of ring bulges with the extra pressure that it can create nearer the muzzle 

 

 

 

And round and round we go! I thought shot size didn’t determine HP from standard? 
If in doubt don’t shove it through anything tighter than half. 

[wymberley]

1 hour ago, Old farrier said:

Which puts you into the hp steel size if you normally use a 6 so for the shooting of a light 2.1/2 chamber gun puts the option out of the equation 

there is very little talk about the large shot bridging the bore and the possibility of ring bulges with the extra pressure that it can create nearer the muzzle 

 

 

 

No, you're OK, but I know where you're coming from -there's been a right load of jiggery pokery about this. It seems to me that cartridge loaders are adopting their own rules when it comes to size determination. I'm afraid Scully is incorrect in as much as any steel shot over 3.25mm is classed as HP. 3.25mm is  0.128" - English 3s. So ignoring the half sizes going up 3 shot sizes - 6 - 3 is OK. Bring on the jiggery pokery to make steel look better than it is - BUT IT DOES WORK - they upped the defining size by one as up 2 sounds better, but up 3 sizes it is in effect although it's called steel 4. Obviously, you can claim that your No 3s have more hitting power than the oppositions' if you make them a tad bigger than the formal spec'. So it depends on who you speak to whether No 3 and steel No4 is 3.25 or 3.3mm - 0.128 or 0.13"

Edited July 3, 2022 by wymberley

[Scully]

57 minutes ago, wymberley said:

No, you're OK, but I know where you're coming from -there's been a right load of jiggery pokery about this. It seems to me that cartridge loaders are adopting their own rules when it comes to size determination. I'm afraid Scully is incorrect in as much as any steel shot over 3.25mm is classed as HP. 3.25mm is  0.128" - English 3s. So ignoring the half sizes going up 3 shot sizes - 6 - 3 is OK. Bring on the jiggery pokery to make steel look better than it is - BUT IT DOES WORK - they upped the defining size by one as up 2 sounds better, but up 3 sizes it is in effect although it's called steel 4. Obviously, you can claim that your No 3s have more hitting power than the oppositions' if you make them a tad bigger than the formal spec'. So it depends on who you speak to whether No 3 and steel No4 is 3.25 or 3.3mm - 0.128 or 0.13"

😀 People really need to make their minds up! No wonder folk are confused! 
I posted a while ago that I thought  shot size determined HP or standard and was told it didn’t, but now you’re saying it does! 
Either way, it makes no difference to me.
Look folks, it’s simplicity itself. If you’re worried about ruining your thin skinned short chambered sxs’s,  then you have multiple choices;  but rather than consider any of them you insist on going round and round and round regarding steel. 
This isn’t going away…..unlike lead.  You can either sell it, mothball it, submit it for steel shot proofing, buy a gun already proofed to do so, or just get on with it. 
There will be no exemptions for vintage, classic, antique, .410’s, 28’s or otherwise. Why on Earth would there be? You will still be able to put lead through them if you want, but NOT at live quarry. 
You have loads of options.