Hmm European Bison in Kent

[ShootingEgg]

11 minutes ago, Jim Neal said:

What's missing from this idealistic dream of biodiversity?  Apex predators.  There's going to be nothing in nature to thin out and control the bison population.

I'm no expert but I've got a feeling there could be too much of a good thing going on, if the effects of the bison increase exponentially as they eventually multiply.

Sounds very familiar to a few years back with deer being left to just multiply in a park scenario 

[oldypigeonpopper]

3 hours ago, Yellow Bear said:

No that's the Beavers - IIRC one programme said they need about 150 trees a year, so much for re forestation.  Another example of "Rewilder think"  🤣  

Hello, I was making a comment on blackpowders post ?

3 hours ago, FOXHUNTER1 said:

It's not rewilding, BBC reporting ******** as usual. Its 1000 acres fenced in ....basically just like a zoo ***

 

Hello that's a llllllllloooooonnnnnnggggggg fence 🤔

[Sweet11-87]

Nah im behind this one. its nothing like clear felling for livestock that graze out an area and need to be moved. they do infact manage eco systems very well.   while scratching and browsing they  knock over some of the standing deadwood and younger trees  and ringbarking others they create space that  removes competition stress from the healthier tree stock. and in doing so create micro habitats for diffrent species of bugs and fungi that in turn feeds other specialist birds small mammals and plants. when they create wallows and dust bowls they help spread pollen too. they are pretty picky eaters so its not like they obliterate the field layer of the  forest floor either. most domestic cattle have been bread to eat anything and not roam to far so theyre pretty destructive.

anything in exccess or abcence will  create unbalance and they will be monitored and culled no doubt with the absence of predators

 

same as wolves in scotland most people think they will go after sheep and leave the deer alone solving nothing. truth is scotland has quite a few large predators  so much stuff got turned loose after the exotic animals ban and managed to take root. live stock do get attacked from time to time but its not that chaotic. central and eastern europe have never not had wolves and bear and they dont have an issue.  The main reason they want more wolves is not to outright control the deer but to keep them on the move creating a healthier "more natural" eco system. any stalker knows reds will stay in a valley and graze it out if not pressed until its grazed out and that behavious puts them at risk of disease.

[islandgun]

8 hours ago, Sweet11-87 said:

Nah im behind this one. its nothing like clear felling for livestock that graze out an area and need to be moved. they do infact manage eco systems very well.   while scratching and browsing they  knock over some of the standing deadwood and younger trees  and ringbarking others they create space that  removes competition stress from the healthier tree stock. and in doing so create micro habitats for diffrent species of bugs and fungi that in turn feeds other specialist birds small mammals and plants. when they create wallows and dust bowls they help spread pollen too. they are pretty picky eaters so its not like they obliterate the field layer of the  forest floor either. most domestic cattle have been bread to eat anything and not roam to far so theyre pretty destructive.

anything in exccess or abcence will  create unbalance and they will be monitored and culled no doubt with the absence of predators

 

same as wolves in scotland most people think they will go after sheep and leave the deer alone solving nothing. truth is scotland has quite a few large predators  so much stuff got turned loose after the exotic animals ban and managed to take root. live stock do get attacked from time to time but its not that chaotic. central and eastern europe have never not had wolves and bear and they dont have an issue.  The main reason they want more wolves is not to outright control the deer but to keep them on the move creating a healthier "more natural" eco system. any stalker knows reds will stay in a valley and graze it out if not pressed until its grazed out and that behavious puts them at risk of disease.

They also want to introduce Exmoor ponies, longhorn cattle and pigs ! we had some longhorns here seemed to behave in exactly the same way as highlands, pigs will turn over everything, Im a big fan of grazing, in fact some of the habitat we have here would be lost without it. the above exercise smacks of a bit of fun for the ecologist's and the chance to import a large herbivore in the name of science

[discobob]

10 hours ago, Jim Neal said:

What's missing from this idealistic dream of biodiversity?  Apex predators.  There's going to be nothing in nature to thin out and control the bison population.

I'm no expert but I've got a feeling there could be too much of a good thing going on, if the effects of the bison increase exponentially as they eventually multiply.

I wouldn't like to run into one in a car - I have seen ones that have hit cows!!!

[London Best]

An American theme park in Derbyshire had a few about 25 years ago. A mate of mine managed to put his Land Rover through the fence and they escaped. Much bed wetting and armed response but they were soon rounded up. Don’t know what happened to them but I never saw them again.

[discobob]

4 minutes ago, London Best said:

An American theme park in Derbyshire had a few about 25 years ago. A mate of mine managed to put his Land Rover through the fence and they escaped. Much bed wetting and armed response but they were soon rounded up. Don’t know what happened to them but I never saw them again.

Your mate or the Bison?? 😂

Reminds me of an Incident at Brize Norton - just after they had resurfaced the runway - a Plane was landing when all of a sudden a vehicle shot across the runway causing the pilot to aggressively take off again with the tail scraping the runway. They didn't find that guy for hours as he was hiding.....

[FOXHUNTER1]

13 hours ago, Sweet11-87 said:

Nah im behind this one. its nothing like clear felling for livestock that graze out an area and need to be moved. they do infact manage eco systems very well.   while scratching and browsing they  knock over some of the standing deadwood and younger trees  and ringbarking others they create space that  removes competition stress from the healthier tree stock. and in doing so create micro habitats for diffrent species of bugs and fungi that in turn feeds other specialist birds small mammals and plants. when they create wallows and dust bowls they help spread pollen too. they are pretty picky eaters so its not like they obliterate the field layer of the  forest floor either. most domestic cattle have been bread to eat anything and not roam to far so theyre pretty destructive.

anything in exccess or abcence will  create unbalance and they will be monitored and culled no doubt with the absence of predators

 

same as wolves in scotland most people think they will go after sheep and leave the deer alone solving nothing. truth is scotland has quite a few large predators  so much stuff got turned loose after the exotic animals ban and managed to take root. live stock do get attacked from time to time but its not that chaotic. central and eastern europe have never not had wolves and bear and they dont have an issue.  The main reason they want more wolves is not to outright control the deer but to keep them on the move creating a healthier "more natural" eco system. any stalker knows reds will stay in a valley and graze it out if not pressed until its grazed out and that behavious puts them at risk of disease.

They are not wild they are fenced in ,BBC propaganda again.

As to wolves not causing problems in Europe I think you will find they are killing more and more domestic livestock as there numbers increase and Norway, Sweden and Finland are now culling them.

[Sweet11-87]

7 hours ago, FOXHUNTER1 said:

They are not wild they are fenced in ,BBC propaganda again.

As to wolves not causing problems in Europe I think you will find they are killing more and more domestic livestock as there numbers increase and Norway, Sweden and Finland are now culling them.

 theyre as wild as they can be. and its a few hundred acres to start but they plan on extending it over time think theyre  putting like 3 cows in an area of somthing like 4 square miles eventually with the bull to follow later and they will be monitored, but will have no assistance or interuption.  they come from farm stock anyway, they all do they were hunted to extinction the same as the north american bison and just like them have been succesfully re wilded all over the place. its an experiment for sure but if its a success it will be continued in other places in the uk. i dont get why people are so against this stuff and so negative as a knee jerk reaction. Even if it is just a publicity stunt, so what?. I bet if they did it in your area and you spotted one youd stop and watch it a while. just allow it and enjoy it, allot of thought and planning went into this. not everything is a conspiracy.

 

as for the skandinavian wolf thing ive followed that too youre right they are culling them for a number of reasons. mainly becasue theyve grown from a very small group and they are at risk of  interbreeding now. a cull would open the area up to new wolf stock to move in and keep the population viable.  and if you look into it most of the lobbiing has been done by hunters not farmers as they control moose and  other game species very effectivly,  of course live stock confrontation will happen from time to time its bound too. i cant find the numbers but i bet its less than 1% of all livestock losses are wolf or wild predator attacks though. and no doubt just like in other parts of the world they will be compensated.

 

 

 

 

[Westward]

On 18/07/2022 at 19:26, Old farrier said:

We have a good rewilding record 

along with introducing non native species

what could ever go wrong 

grey squirrel 

coypue 

mink 

wild boar 

Freshwater turtles 

zander 

please feel free to add to the list 

Signal Crayfish

[islandgun]

17 minutes ago, Sweet11-87 said:

 theyre as wild as they can be. and its a few hundred acres to start but they plan on extending it over time think theyre  putting like 3 cows in an area of somthing like 4 square miles eventually with the bull to follow later and they will be monitored, but will have no assistance or interuption.  they come from farm stock anyway, they all do they were hunted to extinction the same as the north american bison and just like them have been succesfully re wilded all over the place. its an experiment for sure but if its a success it will be continued in other places in the uk. i dont get why people are so against this stuff and so negative as a knee jerk reaction. Even if it is just a publicity stunt, so what?. I bet if they did it in your area and you spotted one youd stop and watch it a while. just allow it and enjoy it, allot of thought and planning went into this. not everything is a conspiracy.

 

as for the skandinavian wolf thing ive followed that too youre right they are culling them for a number of reasons. mainly becasue theyve grown from a very small group and they are at risk of  interbreeding now. a cull would open the area up to new wolf stock to move in and keep the population viable.  and if you look into it most of the lobbiing has been done by hunters not farmers as they control moose and  other game species very effectivly,  of course live stock confrontation will happen from time to time its bound too. i cant find the numbers but i bet its less than 1% of all livestock losses are wolf or wild predator attacks though. and no doubt just like in other parts of the world they will be compensated.

 

 

 

 

If I have a problem its to be told that we must re-wild /plant trees to save the planet and increase bio-diversity and that farming should cease as its to blame for the climate "crisis",  then to be advised that the best way to manage this new woodland is to graze several types of wind emitting animals. these animals must then be culled to avoid overgrazing and in breeding, presumably by Lynx and Wolves [as we will all be vegans and it would be against our religion to kill] meanwhile the entire country will be scrub woodland including the important habitats that need to be managed to sustain rare spp that dont actually breed in trees and of course agriculture, to sustain us vegans..... Over reaction Im not sure, thankfully i will be pushing up whatever plant is left and wont have to witness it.   

[Penelope]

43 minutes ago, Sweet11-87 said:

 theyre as wild as they can be. and its a few hundred acres to start but they plan on extending it over time think theyre  putting like 3 cows in an area of somthing like 4 square miles eventually with the bull to follow later and they will be monitored, but will have no assistance or interuption.  they come from farm stock anyway, they all do they were hunted to extinction the same as the north american bison and just like them have been succesfully re wilded all over the place. its an experiment for sure but if its a success it will be continued in other places in the uk. i dont get why people are so against this stuff and so negative as a knee jerk reaction. Even if it is just a publicity stunt, so what?. I bet if they did it in your area and you spotted one youd stop and watch it a while. just allow it and enjoy it, allot of thought and planning went into this. not everything is a conspiracy.

 

as for the skandinavian wolf thing ive followed that too youre right they are culling them for a number of reasons. mainly becasue theyve grown from a very small group and they are at risk of  interbreeding now. a cull would open the area up to new wolf stock to move in and keep the population viable.  and if you look into it most of the lobbiing has been done by hunters not farmers as they control moose and  other game species very effectivly,  of course live stock confrontation will happen from time to time its bound too. i cant find the numbers but i bet its less than 1% of all livestock losses are wolf or wild predator attacks though. and no doubt just like in other parts of the world they will be compensated.

 

 

 

 

Neither the American or European Bison have been extinct. Think about it?

[Old farrier]

1 hour ago, Sweet11-87 said:

 theyre as wild as they can be. and its a few hundred acres to start but they plan on extending it over time think theyre  putting like 3 cows in an area of somthing like 4 square miles eventually with the bull to follow later and they will be monitored, but will have no assistance or interuption.  they come from farm stock anyway, they all do they were hunted to extinction the same as the north american bison and just like them have been succesfully re wilded all over the place. its an experiment for sure but if its a success it will be continued in other places in the uk. i dont get why people are so against this stuff and so negative as a knee jerk reaction. Even if it is just a publicity stunt, so what?. I bet if they did it in your area and you spotted one youd stop and watch it a while. just allow it and enjoy it, allot of thought and planning went into this. not everything is a conspiracy.

 

as for the skandinavian wolf thing ive followed that too youre right they are culling them for a number of reasons. mainly becasue theyve grown from a very small group and they are at risk of  interbreeding now. a cull would open the area up to new wolf stock to move in and keep the population viable.  and if you look into it most of the lobbiing has been done by hunters not farmers as they control moose and  other game species very effectivly,  of course live stock confrontation will happen from time to time its bound too. i cant find the numbers but i bet its less than 1% of all livestock losses are wolf or wild predator attacks though. and no doubt just like in other parts of the world they will be compensated.

 

 

 

 

So will they be having the annual TB test and the monitoring from the ministry the same as any farmers with a small beef heard 

it’s there land and it’s up to them what they do with it 

however when it’s going to impact on others it’s a different ballpark 

I frequently ask pro re wilders how much land they have? How much of there land will be available for the re introduced creatures to live on 

how much of their land will be flooded by a beaver building a dam 

do they have any livestock that could be feed for the predators 

how much of their own money is going towards the project 

and as yet I haven’t managed to get a positive answer  to any of the questions 

sadly there’s too many people on the country that won’t accept it isn’t planting a few trees that will save the planet 

The biggest problem /carbon generator /heat creator /energy user is the internet 

not a few cattle emitting methane 

 

[Nuke]

2 hours ago, Sweet11-87 said:

as for the skandinavian wolf thing ive followed that too youre right they are culling them for a number of reasons. mainly becasue theyve grown from a very small group and they are at risk of  interbreeding now.

Not really. The culling is done to keep the numbers down/remove whole packs from certain areas, not to make the genetic make up any better.

If you don't own raindeer you will get no compensation from the government.

/Markus

[Jaymo]

Will they be on the GL? 

[islandgun]

Saving the planet is an excuse, bandied around by the likes of monbiot, packham et al using the bbc as their mouthpiece, increase bio-diversity by growing woody plants on moor and permanent pasture then introduce predators to reduce the numbers of ruminants they introduced earlier.  I wonder how long it will take a Lynx to work out that it prefers to eat capercaillie, or curlew to bison calf, given of course that this new woodland scrub doesn't burn to the ground in our increasingly hot summers  

[Nuke]

45 minutes ago, islandgun said:

I wonder how long it will take a Lynx to work out that it prefers to eat capercaillie, or curlew to bison calf, given of course that this new woodland scrub doesn't burn to the ground in our increasingly hot summers  

I don't think you need to worry to much about birds. The lynx main prey around here is roe and hares, possibly (depending on the individual lynx size and lack of other prey) fallow deer calfs and piglets as well but they seem to prefer woodland and avoid open/broken landscape. A bison would imnsho be to much for them to handle.

In some areas they have completely devastated the roe population.

/Markus 

[islandgun]

12 minutes ago, Nuke said:

I don't think you need to worry to much about birds. The lynx main prey around here is roe and hares, possibly (depending on the individual lynx size and lack of other prey) fallow deer calfs and piglets as well but they seem to prefer woodland and avoid open/broken landscape. A bison would imnsho be to much for them to handle.

In some areas they have completely devastated the roe population.

/Markus 

Where abouts are you Markus ? I was using the bison calf as an e,g but i do suppose that this newly re-wilded area will provide habitat for our home grown predators such as fox which love ground nesting birds

[London Best]

11 hours ago, Old farrier said:

So will they be having the annual TB test and the monitoring from the ministry the same as any farmers with a small beef heard 

it’s there land and it’s up to them what they do with it 

however when it’s going to impact on others it’s a different ballpark 

I frequently ask pro re wilders how much land they have? How much of there land will be available for the re introduced creatures to live on 

how much of their land will be flooded by a beaver building a dam 

do they have any livestock that could be feed for the predators 

how much of their own money is going towards the project 

and as yet I haven’t managed to get a positive answer  to any of the questions 

sadly there’s too many people on the country that won’t accept it isn’t planting a few trees that will save the planet 

The biggest problem /carbon generator /heat creator /energy user is the internet 

not a few cattle emitting methane 

 

Good post Sir.

[Nuke]

4 hours ago, islandgun said:

Where abouts are you Markus ? I was using the bison calf as an e,g but i do suppose that this newly re-wilded area will provide habitat for our home grown predators such as fox which love ground nesting birds

Sweden, the lynx started to increase in numbers here about 20 years ago.

/M

[ditchman]

15 hours ago, Jaymo said:

Will they be on the GL? 

dont be greedy ..you couldnt eat more than one at a time

[Sweet11-87]

18 hours ago, Penelope said:

Neither the American or European Bison have been extinct. Think about it?

Sorry I should have said hunted to extinction in the wild. I though thst was obvious as I said they all come from farm stock and ofcourse because they’re still on the planet.

[Sweet11-87]

It’s exhausting in here somtimes. Nobody said get Rid of all farms and make everything woodland  it’s about balance and moderation.  We currently have the lowest percentage of woodland in Europe at about 10-15% and naturally that should be over 80% but that’s never going to happen as it’s unrealistic and the country would be uninhabitable but transferring farm land to managed woodland only by a few extra percent is worth while timber as a sustainable recourse can be quite profitable and if it’s not then I’m sure the land owners will be subsidised jus t like they are for live stock and arable land at times. 

[Penelope]

24 minutes ago, Sweet11-87 said:

Sorry I should have said hunted to extinction in the wild. I though thst was obvious as I said they all come from farm stock and ofcourse because they’re still on the planet.

That didn't happen either, with the American species. If you are interested in this stuff, Steve Rinella's book on 'Buffalo' is a very good read.

[Old farrier]

15 minutes ago, Sweet11-87 said:

It’s exhausting in here somtimes. Nobody said get Rid of all farms and make everything woodland  it’s about balance and moderation.  We currently have the lowest percentage of woodland in Europe at about 10-15% and naturally that should be over 80% but that’s never going to happen as it’s unrealistic and the country would be uninhabitable but transferring farm land to managed woodland only by a few extra percent is worth while timber as a sustainable recourse can be quite profitable and if it’s not then I’m sure the land owners will be subsidised jus t like they are for live stock and arable land at times. 

But there not 

introduce a beaver it’ll take down the trees and flood up stream land 

can I ask you how many acres of your own land you are putting into the scheme