Jump to content

No 9 shot .


Recommended Posts

I was in my rfd today picking up some 20 b carts .and a box of .410 no9 14 grm bornaghi carts took my eye for less than £6 .so I picked them up and took them down the farm for a try out /test experiment. 

First onto card board at 20 then 25 yds 

The patterns were a bit sporadic at 25 yds and I figured 30 would be too wide (compared to my usual hull cart 19 grm no6 which were tight and kill well ) 

So I took the box out into the field over the barley and sat in the shade of a nice Ash tree  . 11 shots and 5 dead birds .

So around a 50 % kill average which is about normal for for .410 hulls .

3 birds at 15 yds were  totally stuffed .

1 at 25 yds was dead .and I pige going away at around 30 yds was still alive on retrieval  . So do no 9 shot kill yes they do the carts are loud and a bit punchy  so not super pleasant to shoot. And I figure 25 yds is about max (as opposed to about 30 for the hull carts  ) .

But at £5.75 a box they were the cheapest carts I've ever bought and they did work  .

Haven't decided if I'm gonna buy any more though.. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Gamebore also do a 14 grm of no9 .

Though I expect they are dearer than the bornaghi I bought .though maybe they are less punchy and quiter (most of the gamebore. 410 s ive tried are ).

If they were a bit quieter I feel they would make a good rat cartridge  as they are cheap enough  .or for barn pigeons where internal roof damage  is a concern .

Link to comment
Share on other sites

47 minutes ago, 222mark said:

No 9 shot hasn't enough killing power. You wouldn't have considered shooting geese with 7 shot, all you do is wound things. Maybe 25yrd Snipe could be killed humanely but 9 shot really does belong on the clay ground. 

Rubbish! 
With a small charge such as 14 gram from a 2 1/2 inch .410 what counts is pattern density. There is plenty of energy in No.9 shot to kill birds the size of crows and pigeon at 30 yards max humanely. I have proved it in practical use hundreds of times. 
I am sure I am not the only one who has killed more than a handful of Canada geese with 28 gram of No.6 when they have appeared during a day’s game, duck or pigeon shooting. (When lead was legal for geese). 
I have not done it myself, but I saw several pink feet shot with 7’s during an impromptu goose drive during a partridge day in the fens. 
Placing the shot in the head and neck is what counts.


None of this suggests that 6 or 7 are my regular choice for geese, but No.6 will kill anything that flies at 45 yards.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

45 minutes ago, 222mark said:

No 9 shot hasn't enough killing power. You wouldn't have considered shooting geese with 7 shot, all you do is wound things. Maybe 25yrd Snipe could be killed humanely but 9 shot really does belong on the clay ground.

At 30 yards a trap load hull comp X of 28g no 9 has retained energy of 0.75ftlbs per pellet but importantly there are between 330 to 580 of them in a 30 inch circle depending on choke, more than enough to ensure a head\neck\spine\wingbone strike and drop the bird cleanly.

 

Pattern has a quality all of it's own as long as sufficient energy is available.

 

I have also dropped 30 yard geese with 28g no 7 and also 18g no6, both killed cleanly but going for head shots, not body shots.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 minutes ago, Stonepark said:

 

 

Pattern has a quality all of it's own as long as sufficient energy is available.

 

I have also dropped 30 yard geese with 28g no 7 and also 18g no6, both killed cleanly but going for head shots, not body shots.

 

Thank you.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

50 minutes ago, Stonepark said:

At 30 yards a trap load hull comp X of 28g no 9 has retained energy of 0.75ftlbs per pellet but importantly there are between 330 to 580 of them in a 30 inch circle depending on choke, more than enough to ensure a head\neck\spine\wingbone strike and drop the bird cleanly.

 

Pattern has a quality all of it's own as long as sufficient energy is available.

 

I have also dropped 30 yard geese with 28g no 7 and also 18g no6, both killed cleanly but going for head shots, not body shots.

 

Can't seem to find those and am assuming fibre wads. A link to them would be great, please.

MTIA

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Some thing of note with these no9 carts all the pige I retrieved except the 30 yds one .we're very bloody .with broken wings and head shot strikes as well they were seemingly hit very hard so I doubt that these small pellets lose  too much energy  out to 20 yds . And obviously  pattern density was good out to 20 yds .opening beyond 25 yds  .

My gun and choke .

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, 222mark said:

It's ok quoting facts and figures. I'm just speaking from practical experience. Sooner have a pocket full of 6 or 7 .410's when out ferreting knowing i will kill rabbits . rather than trying to prove a point and save a few quid.

:good:

Ultrastu's 9s are  - or would be - our 8&1/2s and even Hull themselves come in at less than the very iffy .75 ftlbs for our 9s. Yep, snipe and that's your lot for any decent working range.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, 222mark said:

It's ok quoting facts and figures. I'm just speaking from practical experience. Sooner have a pocket full of 6 or 7 .410's when out ferreting knowing i will kill rabbits . rather than trying to prove a point and save a few quid.

You are correct that we are not discussing bolting rabbits with no9 but looking at what is required to kill pigeons or other similar sized birds and no7 would be the appropriate pellet size for rabbits in 410 as the vulnerabilities are different.

It is the old pattern or penetration discussion and deciding what is the best balance for each caliber\quarry\range, to give the most reliable kills.

My preference could be described as British in that I prefer to rely on a sufficiently dense pattern to kill the quarry, so would prefer 180 pellets in 30 inch circle to kill pigeon with pattern just failing before energy does and relying on multiple strikes to kill.

The "American" view, increasingly being adopted is to rely on fewer larger pellets to achieve birds being dropped, 120 pellets in a 30 inch circle but relying more on the larger individual pellet to cause sufficent damage with pattern failing well before energy.

In 410, due to being limited to 18g generally in commercial loadings, pattern in no6 fails at 30 yards but pellets still retain sufficent energy for 50 yards, but in no7 pattern fails at 35 yards and energy in pellet fails at 40 yards and the balance is much better giving 35 yards of range, rather than the truncated 30 yards of the no6.

 

18g of no9 would pattern to 45 yards, but as pellets run out of energy (for pigeon) at 30 yards, they are limited to 30 yards or as per Ultrastu's findings 14g is more limited to 25 to 30 yards as noted above being limited by both pattern and energy failing almost at the same time

Edited by Stonepark
Link to comment
Share on other sites

10 minutes ago, Stonepark said:

You are correct that we are not discussing bolting rabbits with no9 but looking at what is required to kill pigeons or other similar sized birds and no7 would be the appropriate pellet size for rabbits in 410 as the vulnerabilities are different.

It is the old pattern or penetration discussion and deciding what is the best balance for each caliber\quarry\range, to give the most reliable kills.

My preference could be described as British in that I prefer to rely on a sufficiently dense pattern to kill the quarry, so would prefer 180 pellets in 30 inch circle to kill pigeon with pattern just failing before energy does and relying on multiple strikes to kill.

The "American" view, increasingly being adopted is to rely on fewer larger pellets to achieve birds being dropped, 120 pellets in a 30 inch circle but relying more on the larger individual pellet to cause sufficent damage with pattern failing well before energy.

In 410, due to being limited to 18g generally in commercial loadings, pattern in no6 fails at 30 yards but pellets still retain sufficent energy for 50 yards, but in no7 pattern fails at 35 yards and energy in pellet fails at 40 yards and the balance is much better giving 35 yards of range, rather than the truncated 30 yards of the no6.

 

18g of no9 would pattern to 45 yards, but as pellets run out of energy (for pigeon) at 30 yards, they are limited to 30 yards or as per Ultrastu's findings 14g is more limited to 25 to 30 yards as noted above being limited by both pattern and energy failing almost at the same time

Nit picking perhaps although I think not and to remain in line with our long held view regarding minimum energy levels, this is one rare example where energy actually fails before the pattern and as witnessed by Ultrastu's 30 yard example, 25 yards is our limit.

Gough Thomas had it right in his definition of maximum range which is why for my money why you're spot on with the 'British' idea whereby we aim to achieve a 'clean kill' as opposed to a 'baggable bird'

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Stonepark said:

You are correct that we are not discussing bolting rabbits with no9 but looking at what is required to kill pigeons or other similar sized birds and no7 would be the appropriate pellet size for rabbits in 410 as the vulnerabilities are different.

It is the old pattern or penetration discussion and deciding what is the best balance for each caliber\quarry\range, to give the most reliable kills.

My preference could be described as British in that I prefer to rely on a sufficiently dense pattern to kill the quarry, so would prefer 180 pellets in 30 inch circle to kill pigeon with pattern just failing before energy does and relying on multiple strikes to kill.

The "American" view, increasingly being adopted is to rely on fewer larger pellets to achieve birds being dropped, 120 pellets in a 30 inch circle but relying more on the larger individual pellet to cause sufficent damage with pattern failing well before energy.

In 410, due to being limited to 18g generally in commercial loadings, pattern in no6 fails at 30 yards but pellets still retain sufficent energy for 50 yards, but in no7 pattern fails at 35 yards and energy in pellet fails at 40 yards and the balance is much better giving 35 yards of range, rather than the truncated 30 yards of the no6.

 

18g of no9 would pattern to 45 yards, but as pellets run out of energy (for pigeon) at 30 yards, they are limited to 30 yards or as per Ultrastu's findings 14g is more limited to 25 to 30 yards as noted above being limited by both pattern and energy failing almost at the same time

This is an excellent post stonepark .

The only thing I would add to it .is that I've found that the smaller pellet cartridges ,although having more pellets in the air tend to open up the pattern quicker (closer ) than say a no6 pellets. So in theory 300 no9 pellets should pattern  denser  than 180 no6   at 30 yds ,  infact they don't tend to . I guess those small pellets  scrub up the bore and have more percentage deformation compared to the bigger pellets .I have to admit that a 2.4 mm  no7 would probably be the best compromise  for range /energy /pattern .

The no9 I bought were done just to see how they faired when I knew birds could be shot relatively close in .

Have to agree on the point that I think the pattern and energy fail equally at 25 yds with no9  2.1 mm .and there are better options (unsurprisingly) . But often we get hung up on  which size is best .no5 no6 no7.5  there isn't a massive difference  keep it realistic and they will all work .

Maybe just buy the cheapest. 

It's kind of what I do now .

Edited by Ultrastu
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Not to add water to the chip pan, in 410 it’s sometimes beggars can’t be choosers with what they have in that’s why most of my 14g 410s are 5 and 6 s  I went for a carrion crow between the lambs on Saturday took the on at 30 yards that and the so and so 5 yards behind it that went to flight the wrong way nether were out and out head shots but both stone cold dead no flapping or anything.

In my head my kill pattern with the 410 is 15 20  inches at best there must still be a lot of energy in the shot core !  But still a few pellets to a wider safe zone I am sure these would show up on a two dimensional pattern plate . But a  shotgun does not produce a 2d pattern !
 

it still amazes me that people only think the work to 15/20 yards- can’t speak about old 410 cartridges but modern shotgun flake and cartridge manufacturers must have improved over the years ! Because my 410 ain’t a pee shooter.

would love some 9s they would be spot on I think 

Atb Agriv8 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

48 minutes ago, Ultrastu said:

I'd like  to  try 19 grm of no 9 for sure .

But I don't think anybody makes them 

They dont in UK, but homeload 410 fibre 21g no9 looks like this at 35 yards.....

 

Both Bornaghi and Fiocchi do, do them but not imported here due to normal bias that you need 6's

https://www.bornaghi.it/en/natural/magnum-19/

https://fiocchi.com/en/870804-870810.html

No 9 BLM 21g.JPG

Edited by Stonepark
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Agriv8 said:

Not to add water to the chip pan, in 410 it’s sometimes beggars can’t be choosers with what they have in that’s why most of my 14g 410s are 5 and 6 s  I went for a carrion crow between the lambs on Saturday took the on at 30 yards that and the so and so 5 yards behind it that went to flight the wrong way nether were out and out head shots but both stone cold dead no flapping or anything.

In my head my kill pattern with the 410 is 15 20  inches at best there must still be a lot of energy in the shot core !  But still a few pellets to a wider safe zone I am sure these would show up on a two dimensional pattern plate . But a  shotgun does not produce a 2d pattern !
 

it still amazes me that people only think the work to 15/20 yards- can’t speak about old 410 cartridges but modern shotgun flake and cartridge manufacturers must have improved over the years ! Because my 410 ain’t a pee shooter.

would love some 9s they would be spot on I think 

Atb Agriv8 

 You are correct the shotgun does not produce a 2D pattern, however as the difference in the birds location if it was moving at 40mph perpendicular to the shot string is only 8 inches from the theoretical first impact to the last of the shot string, we can assume a 2D is representative but actually what is happening is the centre pellets (flying true) arriving first and the outer fringe (damaged pellets) arriving last, the shot cloud being a bit like a hollow cone.

Have you ever patterned any of your cartridges to see what it looks like on paper?

Most cartridge dealers are happy to order what you want if you let them know, as manufacturers usually have every loading in stock and just send out what is requested.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

12 minutes ago, Stonepark said:

 You are correct the shotgun does not produce a 2D pattern, however as the difference in the birds location if it was moving at 40mph perpendicular to the shot string is only 8 inches from the theoretical first impact to the last of the shot string, we can assume a 2D is representative but actually what is happening is the centre pellets (flying true) arriving first and the outer fringe (damaged pellets) arriving last, the shot cloud being a bit like a hollow cone.

Have you ever patterned any of your cartridges to see what it looks like on paper?

Most cartridge dealers are happy to order what you want if you let them know, as manufacturers usually have every loading in stock and just send out what is requested.

Stone pack yes had the pleasure of patterning many different loads through  multiple guns at Coniston shooting ground mainly for choke and to check ones mount as I do quite a bit of clay shooting I also use a shotcam witch adds a dimension of seeing how a clay breaks in the shot from my gun. 

I am sure if I pay the price I could order  many different 410 loads but costs are usually linked to availability and for the pest control I do I know my limits and the limitations of my chosen gun and shell

regarding hollow shot clouds cone I am not sure I have seen evidence of that but I will leave you with your theory and I will keep using my little 410 keeping my farmer mate happy. My theory is more a sausage of lead but hey.

keep shooting and have fun Agriv8 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...
 Share

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.
×
×
  • Create New...