Held at gun point

[Westley]

45 minutes ago, mel b3 said:

It should also be plainly obvious to a trained professional, such as a firearms officer . That carries in their hand , a tool capable of taking a life in a split second , if they get it wrong because of their lack of knowledge,  of firearms , and their uses.

The majority of AFO's will NEVER encounter this sort of a situation in their entire career, these incidents are so few and far between that they manage 6 pages on here when  ONE does occur.

You have to remember the situations they deal with are very often life threatening which may appear alien to many on here who's biggest threat is from SWMBO when they say they are going shooting  ! Until they establish control and then gain more facts, which is EXACTLY what took place here, the farmer contacted etc. could only take place AFTER the facts had been learned by asking questions,  none of which I doubt would have been obtained from the complainant. It only takes a split second to lose a life too  !  After those questions had been answered, their guns would no longer be pointing at anyone.

It was never going to be a 'tea and cucumber sandwich' afternoon  !

14 hours ago, bruno22rf said:

All very interesting but totally irrelevant in my area, if you inform the police that you are shooting their new policy, as of approx 18 months ago, is not to even log your call thus keeping no record or reference. The old system, where you would be given a URN (unique reference number) that you could quote for instant clarification, has been scrapped. The BASC fighting this? pull the other one.  

EVERY call is recorded  !

[bruno22rf]

5 minutes ago, Westley said:

The majority of AFO's will NEVER encounter this sort of a situation in their entire career, these incidents are so few and far between that they manage 6 pages on here when  ONE does occur.

You have to remember the situations they deal with are very often life threatening which may appear alien to many on here who's biggest threat is from SWMBO when they say they are going shooting  ! Until they establish control and then gain more facts, which is EXACTLY what took place here, the farmer contacted etc. could only take place AFTER the facts had been learned by asking questions,  none of which I doubt would have been obtained from the complainant. It only takes a split second to lose a life too  !  After those questions had been answered, their guns would no longer be pointing at anyone.

It was never going to be a 'tea and cucumber sandwich' afternoon  !

EVERY call is recorded  !

No, it really is not. Where reports of using a gun on land where you have permission is involved all that is recoded is that a member of the public called and at what time, the call handler may, at their discretion, pass details on to Oscar 2 (the handlers immediate superior) if they deem nessesary but the days of being given a reference number to quote should you be approached by a police officer are long gone. I have family in the police call centre and last year I made an official complaint about this very situation, local FEO was demanding that we report and get a reference number when we intended to shoot in a public place (a park) but the call centres were not even logging the calls. I have an email somewhere from the complaints commision admitting that the FEO had given out of date advice and that no reports are longer logged or required.

[Westley]

4 minutes ago, bruno22rf said:

No, it really is not. Where reports of using a gun on land where you have permission is involved all that is recoded is that a member of the public called and at what time, the call handler may, at their discretion, pass details on to Oscar 2 (the handlers immediate superior) if they deem nessesary but the days of being given a reference number to quote should you be approached by a police officer are long gone. I have family in the police call centre and last year I made an official complaint about this very situation, local FEO was demanding that we report and get a reference number when we intended to shoot in a public place (a park) but the call centres were not even logging the calls. I have an email somewhere from the complaints commision admitting that the FEO had given out of date advice and that no reports are longer logged or required.

BUT the call will have been tape recorded, in case it is needed at a later date for evidential purposes. All telephone calls in are recorded.

[Fellside]

16 minutes ago, Westley said:

The majority of AFO's will NEVER encounter this sort of a situation in their entire career, these incidents are so few and far between that they manage 6 pages on here when  ONE does occur.

You have to remember the situations they deal with are very often life threatening which may appear alien to many on here who's biggest threat is from SWMBO when they say they are going shooting  ! Until they establish control and then gain more facts, which is EXACTLY what took place here, the farmer contacted etc. could only take place AFTER the facts had been learned by asking questions,  none of which I doubt would have been obtained from the complainant. It only takes a split second to lose a life too  !  After those questions had been answered, their guns would no longer be pointing at anyone.

It was never going to be a 'tea and cucumber sandwich' afternoon  !

EVERY call is recorded  !

Sorry Westley, I sense your frustration, however I’m afraid there is huge room for improvement in this area of policing. That’s not a criticism or a negative, more an opportunity identified. If you don’t see it that way, we will just have to agree to differ. 

Have a pleasant weekend - hopefully shooting pigeons somewhere in a peaceful spot. 

[mel b3]

1 hour ago, Westley said:

The majority of AFO's will NEVER encounter this sort of a situation in their entire career, these incidents are so few and far between that they manage 6 pages on here when  ONE does occur.

You have to remember the situations they deal with are very often life threatening which may appear alien to many on here who's biggest threat is from SWMBO when they say they are going shooting  ! Until they establish control and then gain more facts, which is EXACTLY what took place here, the farmer contacted etc. could only take place AFTER the facts had been learned by asking questions,  none of which I doubt would have been obtained from the complainant. It only takes a split second to lose a life too  !  After those questions had been answered, their guns would no longer be pointing at anyone.

It was never going to be a 'tea and cucumber sandwich' afternoon  !

EVERY call is recorded  !

It's not that rare though is it ?. I know personally,  four people that it's happened to , and,  I've been arrested at gunpoint myself,  so I have first hand knowledge of what it's like . The firearms officers acted very professionally , but the local police were a disgrace to their uniform , and taint every officer that wears the uniform . I won't go into the harassment by a lunatic female anti shooting police officer that I suffered for months , until I finally got an apology , and explanation.   I also spent last Sunday afternoon,  talking to a serving firearms officer ( a guy that I've known since he was a child) . He speaks very highly of most of his fellow officers , he also speaks about those armed officers that are little more than idiots with guns , and couldn't be trusted with a box of matches. 

We all know that calls to the police are recorded , we all also know how quickly that evidence will dissappear,  as soon as it doesn't benefit the police .

[BlaserF3]

4 minutes ago, mel b3 said:

It's not that rare though is it ?. I know personally,  four people that it's happened to , and,  I've been arrested at gunpoint myself,  so I have first hand knowledge of what it's like . The firearms officers acted very professionally , but the local police were a disgrace to their uniform , and taint every officer that wears the uniform . I won't go into the harassment by a lunatic female anti shooting police officer that I suffered for months , until I finally got an apology , and explanation.   I also spent last Sunday afternoon,  talking to a serving firearms officer ( a guy that I've known since he was a child) . He speaks very highly of most of his fellow officers , he also speaks about those armed officers that are little more than idiots with guns , and couldn't be trusted with a box of matches. 

We all know that calls to the police are recorded , we all also know how quickly that evidence will dissappear,  as soon as it doesn't benefit the police .

It's very true about idiots with guns, I said that very early on. Who trusts the Police at all? Not me for one.

[mel b3]

2 minutes ago, BlaserF3 said:

It's very true about idiots with guns, I said that very early on. Who trusts the Police at all? Not me for one.

Most police officers,  are decent ordinary people , just trying to make a living , and help out along the way , but , that uniform hides some of the vilest creatures that walk the earth . 

The most upsetting thing for me about my experience,  was that I'd always brought my children up to respect and trust the police , but now , they know the truth about just what horrible bullies and liars some police officers can be. I already knew just how bad some of them can be , but my kids didn't,  but , they know now  , and for the rest of their lives they'll never trust another police officer. 

My late mother was a police officer,  and at her passing out parade at Hendon,  the top man said to the new police officers , that their was more rogues on the police force than off it , and not to be one of those rogues.

[Westley]

1 hour ago, Fellside said:

Sorry Westley, I sense your frustration, however I’m afraid there is huge room for improvement in this area of policing. That’s not a criticism or a negative, more an opportunity identified. If you don’t see it that way, we will just have to agree to differ. 

Have a pleasant weekend - hopefully shooting pigeons somewhere in a peaceful spot. 

No taking BASC to task at the game fair

24 minutes ago, BlaserF3 said:

It's very true about idiots with guns, I said that very early on. Who trusts the Police at all? Not me for one.

Especially if they shoot your birds at Kelbrook  !     😄

[Fellside]

4 minutes ago, Westley said:

No taking BASC to task at the game fair

Ah well, enjoy the game fair then. 

[BlaserF3]

13 minutes ago, Westley said:

 

Especially if they shoot your birds at Kelbrook  !     😄

I don't find you funny at all 😒

[Walker570]

I have knowledge of one very sad stress shoot when and armed team went into the flat of a known criminal. A young child got shot and killed.  Undoubtably a stress shoot.  The officer involved was a good friend who I would trust without doubt but it still happened.    So don't tell me that 'accidental'  actually careless shots cannot be made.     I resigned from the West Mids Firearms unit because of that as the training was not hard enough. It was almost all target work on paper and back then the equipment was pathetic. I even had to purchase my own holster as those issued where like you would give kids playing cowboys and indians.   Geoffrey Deere now Lord Deere took over the force as Chief Constable and there was a huge change for the better, good kit, good equipment and good food.

[Westley]

58 minutes ago, Fellside said:

Ah well, enjoy the game fair then. 

Thanks for that, take care.

I think the job should be given to the army to deal with, they are far better trained and experienced, nothing like a couple of stun grenades tossed into yer hide. Any conversation is then useless because you will be deaf for a week  !  🤣

[Westley]

56 minutes ago, BlaserF3 said:

I don't find you funny at all 😒

I knew you wouldn't  !  🙄

[Dave-G]

I frequently shoot near the edge of a city. I've had officers called out to me where all was good natured. also had a passing police helicopter hover almost above me whereupon I placed the rifle on the grass and stepped five paces away from it, the Heli moved on.

Having read of instances where officers attending a field shooter, particularly those who scream their demands, have instructed the 'suspect' to drop his rifle. I feel I'd have to shout back I'd make it safe, remove the bolt and bring it back with me if I'm instructed to go to them.

Could the firearms officers in this thread comment on that ?

Edited July 29, 2022 by Dave-G

[bruno22rf]

7 hours ago, Westley said:

BUT the call will have been tape recorded, in case it is needed at a later date for evidential purposes. All telephone calls in are recorded.

No they are not, as a call is received the handler types details into their computer, normally just key words, if the report is considered serious (less than 10%) then a report is written and passed on to the senior officer in charge, they then decide what, if any, action is to be taken. You may be confusing 999 calls.

[Westley]

3 hours ago, bruno22rf said:

No they are not, as a call is received the handler types details into their computer, normally just key words, if the report is considered serious (less than 10%) then a report is written and passed on to the senior officer in charge, they then decide what, if any, action is to be taken. You may be confusing 999 calls.

NO, all calls.

[Good shot?]

Earlier Fellside said “This leads me to believe there may be an element of opportunistic training involved. ”

I fully agree and would add that I would be interested to know that certain members of that team had learned from their obvious mistakes and a correctly worded letter with that in mind would have helped in that matter.

I will add that I would struggle to do a correctly worded letter if that had happened to me but that imo is what would help.

Edited July 30, 2022 by Good shot?

[Gas seal]

It was bad timing been stopped in the car on the field. It would have been  different when shooting over the field. I don’t know why you had to show you were 200 mts  from a boundary . 

[Bigbob]

When i used to shoot my work a university i had to go to the control room log on phone the police get a job number and security did a report on there computer , And despite all this the armed response turned up regular i used to get a phone call Bob the armed response are here looking for you ,i would say I'm in car park A can you get one of your guys to the bus stop and i will meet them there a extra witness for me and it never turned nasty . One night i was lamping a long stretch of road between to roundabouts and my son says dad there's a police car behind you i kept going up and down that road till they pulled me over and asked can i asked what your doing ,i replied lamping the rabbits job number 12345 can i have both your badge numbers ?sorry mate the control room tells us nothing , i said i will make a complaint they speed off i thing it was a couple of antis who thought they would ruin my night but at a 500 acre campus i just move to another part for a bit . It got to much for the other lad who also shot there he packed it in but there where too many rabbits for me to do that infact i am going to start back when the students break up for the summer mid August  

[Longbower]

On 25/07/2022 at 09:56, London Best said:

Tried the “call the local control room” method for one whole winter when lamping foxes.

Without exception they sent a car out to investigate every time,

When clearing a local cricket club of rabbits (sub 12 air rifle), I too rang the Local constabulary.

I left my details and what i had been asked to do , the contact details of the club manager, and obtained an incident number. The person asked me to call and quote that number when I had finished what I was doing.

 

20 Mins later , blues and two's arrived,  I had heard them coming so bagged the rifle ,(i always carry it when on a new perm), and laid it on the floor .  Torches were shone in my face by two unarmed officers, who were female, and quite brave  really (i mean i could have been a loon with a real rifle). I quoted the 'incident number' , they radioed it in , and I was informed that that number  'did not exist'.  However, I showed her my last phone call , I re dialled it , and spoke to the same control room person , who spoke to the officer. All sorted. Yes , but i was still asked to leave as my presence had 'spooked ' the local residents. So I , agreed , and all ended well .  This was eight years ago. Never phoned one in since.

 

 

[Scully]

2 hours ago, Longbower said:

When clearing a local cricket club of rabbits (sub 12 air rifle), I too rang the Local constabulary.

I left my details and what i had been asked to do , the contact details of the club manager, and obtained an incident number. The person asked me to call and quote that number when I had finished what I was doing.

 

20 Mins later , blues and two's arrived,  I had heard them coming so bagged the rifle ,(i always carry it when on a new perm), and laid it on the floor .  Torches were shone in my face by two unarmed officers, who were female, and quite brave  really (i mean i could have been a loon with a real rifle). I quoted the 'incident number' , they radioed it in , and I was informed that that number  'did not exist'.  However, I showed her my last phone call , I re dialled it , and spoke to the same control room person , who spoke to the officer. All sorted. Yes , but i was still asked to leave as my presence had 'spooked ' the local residents. So I , agreed , and all ended well .  This was eight years ago. Never phoned one in since.

 

 

Yep. Complete and utter waste of time in my experience. 
I once phoned in out of respect for my FEO who suggested it. He was a nice bloke so thought I’d comply. Anyhow, person on phone wanted to know what time I was going out, what time I’d be back, where I was going and with whom, and what firearms I and them would be taking, plus reg’ numbers of any vehicles we would be using. 
I couldn’t give her a definite to any of those questions so I suggested I just wouldn’t bother calling next time. She didn’t seem bothered at all. 
I’ve never phoned since. 

[HantsRob]

On 30/07/2022 at 02:43, bruno22rf said:

No they are not, as a call is received the handler types details into their computer, normally just key words, if the report is considered serious (less than 10%) then a report is written and passed on to the senior officer in charge, they then decide what, if any, action is to be taken. You may be confusing 999 calls.

All calls to 101 and 999 are recorded, and retained for a specific limit of time. I can assure you that all calls are logged in the Hampshire callcentres, and are either "written off" and not deployed, or triaged. But, every call is logged. It also helps with an audit trail in case someone is always calling about the same thing.

On 29/07/2022 at 23:37, Dave-G said:

I frequently shoot near the edge of a city. I've had officers called out to me where all was good natured. also had a passing police helicopter hover almost above me whereupon I placed the rifle on the grass and stepped five paces away from it, the Heli moved on.

Having read of instances where officers attending a field shooter, particularly those who scream their demands, have instructed the 'suspect' to drop his rifle. I feel I'd have to shout back I'd make it safe, remove the bolt and bring it back with me if I'm instructed to go to them.

Could the firearms officers in this thread comment on that ?

I like the idea and the goodwill of this. It won't work, as you holding a rifle with bolt removed is not as safe as you not touching the rifle and 5 paces away. 

If the local constab training is to get you to lay down your weapon and move away, your request to make safe and remove the bolt will fall on deaf ears as that is not the SOP that they'll be taught.

If you're suggesting in non-active shooting situations that maybe a new SOP to make safe and remove the bolt so we can "have a word", then I really like it. I don't think it will happen though. 

[London Best]

The thing is, no shooter is going to want to DROP his gun, which could be worth many thousands of pounds and he has saved all his life to buy. 

Being asked (told) to lay it down is a totally different thing.

I would not drop one of my guns to the ground, even if it was a rough old single barrel.

[McSpredder]

3 hours ago, London Best said:

The thing is, no shooter is going to want to DROP his gun ......

Quite a part from damage to the shooter's property, it sounds like a reckless thing to do.   Nobody can be certain which way a dropped gun will be pointing when it hits the gound, or whether the trigger will catch on clothing as it falls, or on a twig when it lands, or whether the impact alone might be sufficient to cause a discharge.   I wonder what the training manual says.

[London Best]

I think the “drop your gun” saying comes direct from cowboy films.