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A cause for concern


Minky
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Now that sadly Archie Battersbee has passed , a question has arisen in my mind.  Who are Christian Concern and how and why did they get so intertwined in the Battersbee case. They are a company with a managiñg director and a CEO.  So what's in it for them.   No normal family would even know or consider the legal challenges that this crowd got the family to peruse.  Regardless of the rights or wrongs it must have cost fortunes to mount these legal challenges. It's a bit like a few years ago when every night (in the South East)  The TV news was overloaded with stuff about shipping sheep etc over to France.  The news was being hyped up to fever pitch and thousands of protesters were causing riots  at Dover and Newhaven ports.  In that incident someone either in the police or government must have had a word in someones  ear because suddenly the reporting stopped!!  And no more was heard about it.  Another more recent thing was Brexit and that Gina Miller who was driving a load of legal challenges (who the he'll was she.?  How was that paid for.?. And the bloke hollering his head off every day outside of Parliment.  Is this some sort of concerted campaign to cause political , legal strife and to cause expense , nuisance to the government or the institutions.  There are some manipulative people involved in this.  Their spending vast sums of time and money.  For what end.?  Is it some sort of foreign driven annoyance to control and weaken the country.?  If I've thought about this I'm sure that somewhere in the corridors someone must be asking the same questions.  Is our freedom being used against us. Was it cruel for this outfit to hype the family up and use them when realistically  there was only ever going to be one outcome.

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Unfortunatley in every walk of life now there are "groups" like this......i dont know their politicle leanings....but one thing for certain is they have alternative agendas to the post in hand

our country is riddled with groups/organisations like this now some good and some not so good.......it affects the running of this country and politicos are running scared of them.........have them by the balls and their hearts and minds will follow......it prevents laws being made....

i dont expect a lot of replies to this post.....as it is in peoples thoughts ....to keep their views close to their chests...........it is a very incendary topic to discuss anywhere.. 

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Sadly I think the biggest problem we have is the internet and it`s use by minority pressure groups to sway the minds of those in control of our lives ! In the past they were influenced by mass actions but now politicians and their ilk run scared of a relative handful of agenda riders !

Pandora`s box comes to mind........

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15 minutes ago, ditchman said:

Unfortunatley in every walk of life now there are "groups" like this......i dont know their politicle leanings....but one thing for certain is they have alternative agendas to the post in hand

our country is riddled with groups/organisations like this now some good and some not so good.......it affects the running of this country and politicos are running scared of them.........have them by the balls and their hearts and minds will follow......it prevents laws being made....

i dont expect a lot of replies to this post.....as it is in peoples thoughts ....to keep their views close to their chests...........it is a very incendary topic to discuss anywhere.. 

Thanks for taking the time and thought power to reply.  I was in two minds as to whether to post this because as you state  ....it is a very incendary topic to discuss.  I'm sure that everyone will appreciate the position of this family and every  mother would fight tooth and nail for their child BUT I  do think that there has to be a point where a limit of posibility had been reached.  I think that this groups actions heave used this family.  The one the other year wanted the pope to get involved.  It's crazy.

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Incidentally I understand that this boy might have been taking part in some sort of crazy internet stunt where you strangle yourself to the point of unconsciousness. !! ... kind of a game of chicken.   Unfortunately in this case there was no one to stop this silliness or to pull him out of it.  I wonder how his mother feels about this.?  The internet strikes again.    

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Hello, good post minky, I did wonder who was backing the family as it must have cost a lot of money to go through the courts, saying all this if it was confirmed he did try the crazy stunt via the internet then that should be made aware to every parent of young children to hope stop another tragedy 

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22 minutes ago, oldypigeonpopper said:

Hello, good post minky, I did wonder who was backing the family as it must have cost a lot of money to go through the courts, saying all this if it was confirmed he did try the crazy stunt via the internet then that should be made aware to every parent of young children to hope stop another tragedy 

i was going to reply to this but thought better of it........

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I've been listening to the news reports on this.  What I've been saying to myself is that, unless there's a deeper dimension to this case that we're not being told, just WHY are the family repeatedly making appeals to prolong his living death?  If a human's brain is dead, they are as good as dead, they are never coming back, let them go with dignity.

I feel a lot more detail will come out now in the aftermath.

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Personally, I think the "ambulance chasing lawyers" are at the route of all these legal challenges fighting 'causes', whether they be the Archie Battersbee case, asylum seekers, Wild Justice, LACS, diesel car emissions compensation (a claim for which I have just been urged by a no doubt very expensive national radio advert to join), mis-selling of various financial types etc. 

If you can get lots of people interested (which is where as others have stated the internet comes in) and 'crowd fund' - then the shady lawyers get rich pickings whatever the outcome for the claimants (who are just a pawn in the legal money making machine).  The culture is maintained by appeals to ever higher (and more expensive) levels of the justice system.  Remember - we as tax payers are probably funding one 'side'.

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Posted (edited)

I just had a look at Christian concerns website.  Yes. It is a company and they've got a website.  Its well presented and laid out.  Basically it is a money net. I ain't got a website and I'm not promoting people to get involved and send me money. It's a scam. Find a cause, find desperate people . The more desperate situation the better.  Lead them on with false hope and lay them out public.  You know you want to help.  It's a scam. Thieves nothing less.  And where was the mother when the boy was online looking at God knows what.  I wonder.  Was she going through this performance to cover her own deficiencies.  ?  The news media don't ask these sort of questions. 

Edited by Minky
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2 hours ago, Minky said:

I just had a look at Christian concerns website.  Yes. It is a company and they've got a website.  Its well presented and laid out.  Basically it is a money net. I ain't got a website and I'm not promoting people to get involved and send me money. It's a scam. Find a cause, find desperate people . The more desperate situation the better.  Lead them on with false hope and lay them out public.  You know you want to help.  It's a scam. Thieves nothing less.  And where was the mother when the boy was online looking at God knows what.  I wonder.  Was she going through this performance to cover her own deficiencies.  ?  The news media don't ask these sort of questions. 

they dare not..........its all very border line......and the media dont want to be incourt and fighting defamation charges

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Did your mothers know where you were and what you were up to at all times when you were 12?

And if they didn't would you be saying they were deficient in their duties?

It is a very sad case all round but it is unfair to be suggesting the mum is to blame unless you actually know different.

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I’ve no idea who was behind the funding, nor indeed if there was, or an agenda, but I can totally understand why the parents would welcome any and all regardless of any agenda, if it gave them hope that their son could be saved. 
It is any sane parents worst nightmare to lose a child.
They will be ridden by guilt that they weren’t there to save him, even though it is totally irrational to think so. We can’t be there for our kids every moment of every day, once they reach that stage of independence, and indeed, many kids of a similar age resent such intrusion. 
They won’t ever get over this, but they’ll learn to live with it, and in time they’ll come to see it for what is was, a tragic accident. 
 

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3 hours ago, Minky said:

I just had a look at Christian concerns website.  Yes. It is a company and they've got a website.  Its well presented and laid out.  Basically it is a money net. I ain't got a website and I'm not promoting people to get involved and send me money. It's a scam. Find a cause, find desperate people . The more desperate situation the better.  Lead them on with false hope and lay them out public.  You know you want to help.  It's a scam. Thieves nothing less.  And where was the mother when the boy was online looking at God knows what.  I wonder.  Was she going through this performance to cover her own deficiencies.  ?  The news media don't ask these sort of questions. 

This isn't a completely fair representation. It's not a scam and it's not about desperate people being conned. They are a legal professional outfit that mostly work within the remit of their own beliefs for those who don't have the legal skills/knowledge to put their case forward themselves. They were also the people representing the bakers in the 'gay wedding cake' case, where the courts tried to force a company to make a cake based on something they disagreed with, something which a lot of non-christians (and a fair few gay activists) found...er...distasteful! They showed the case wasn't about homophobia but about the right to practice beliefs openly, which they won eventually. BASC and other organisations frequently do it - and it's recommended on here often enough. 'Contact BASC's legal department, they'll have advice'. It's just the stakes are higher and it's something you don't believe in. I can't tell you the number of times I've heard anti friends describe BASC as crooks for jumping on shooting bandwagons to blow something out of all proportion because it suits their agenda. Is that fair? Probably not, it's just they're anti BASC, so they're happy to call them scammers. There's a big difference between organisations like CC and the ambulance chasing compensation companies. With CC they articulate pre-existing beliefs, as we saw for the cake case. All the bakers had to work with initially was 'we're not homophobic, we're just practicing what we believe, which is allowed'. Without asking CC to get involved, a case they should have won (for everyone's sakes), they would have lost.

That being said, this case is a bit odd and I'm not sure who's being manipulated by whom. As far as I can make out, the initial argument was 'we can see some signs of life, he just needs more time' but then they asked CC to get involved and it became about the sanctity of life. It's felt for a while like the family's been using CC to drive their agenda through a proxy war armed with Christian values they don't necessarily believe, but find convenient right now.

Why do families do it? Hope that isn't there. We've seen a fair few of these of late (this is the first one involving CC; it's not about them creating the situation to exploit). People don't want to let go. Whether it's more time, a new treatment, different doctors it's the same: too often they believe they know more about their child's illness and suffering, simply because they're parents. What really needs to change is preparation for bereavement. One conversation by a preoccupied surgeon or an overworked nurse will never be enough to prepare a family for the worst possible news they can ever comprehend. It's their world falling apart at the seams. 

As to that last bit Minky about where was the mother. Downstairs. Think it through before you accuse someone of negligence that results in the death of a child. A parent cannot and should not be watching over a child 24/7. That's how overprotective parenting turns into domination and then a form of abuse. Sometimes, young people get themselves into situations quicker than they or their guardians can get them out of it. Whatever it was, the real culprits are whoever put out the material he was watching. This sort of stuff dodges firewalls and parental filters constantly. You can be the best parent in the world, but a tiny, tiny percentage of times, you just have to hope that your kid doesn't do something extraordinarily stupid. 

Edited by chrisjpainter
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3 minutes ago, chrisjpainter said:

This isn't a completely fair representation. It's not a scam and it's not about desperate people being conned. They are a legal professional outfit the mostly work within the remit of their own beliefs who don't have the legal skills/knowledge to put their case forward themselves. They were also the people representing the bakers in the 'gay wedding cake' case, where the courts tried to force a company to make a cake based on something they disagreed with, something which a lot of non-christians (and a fair few gay activists) found...er...distasteful! They showed the case wasn't about homophobia but about the right to practice beliefs openly, which they won eventually. BASC and other organisations frequently do it - and it's recommended on here often enough. 'Contact BASC's legal department, they'll have advice'. It's just the stakes are higher and it's something you don't believe in. I can't tell you the number of times I've heard anti friends describe BASC as crooks for jumping on shooting bandwagons to blow something out of all proportion because it suits their agenda. Is that fair? Probably not, it's just they're anti BASC, so they're happy to call them scammers. There's a big difference between organisations like CC and the ambulance chasing compensation companies. With CC they articulate pre-existing beliefs, as we saw for the cake case. All the bakers had to work with initially was 'we're not homophobic, we're just practicing what we believe, which is allowed'. Without asking CC to get involved, a case they should have won (for everyone's sakes), they would have lost.

That being said, this case is a bit odd and I'm not sure who's being manipulated by whom. As far as I can make out, the initial argument was 'we can see some signs of life, he just needs more time' but then they asked CC to get involved and it became about the sanctity of life. It's felt for a while like the family's been using CC to drive their agenda through a proxy war armed with Christian values they don't necessarily believe, but find convenient right now.

Why do families do it? Hope that isn't there. We've seen a fair few of these of late (this is the first one involving CC; it's not about them creating the situation to exploit). People don't want to let go. Whether it's more time, a new treatment, different doctors it's the same: too often they believe they know more about their child's illness and suffering, simply because they're parents. What really needs to change is preparation for bereavement. One conversation by a preoccupied surgeon or an overworked nurse will never be enough to prepare a family for the worst possible news they can ever comprehend. It's their world falling apart at the seams. 

As to that last bit Minky about where was the mother. Downstairs. Think it through before you accuse someone of negligence that results in the death of a child. A parent cannot and should not be watching over a child 24/7. That's how overprotective parenting turns into domination and then a form of abuse. Sometimes, young people get themselves into situations quicker than they or their guardians can get them out of it. Whatever it was, the real culprits are whoever put out the material he was watching. This sort of stuff dodges firewalls and parental filters constantly. You can be the best parent in the world, but a tiny, tiny percentage of times, you just have to hope that your kid doesn't do something extraordinarily stupid. 

Excellent post. 
 

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Gina Miller? She was the person who wanted the Courts to remind Johnson that it is Parliament that makes the law and not Johnson. That's who Gina Miller was. In that respect she's no different from those of us who contribute threads on P/W expressing concern that "something must be done" about Chief Constables (or the Home Office) seeking to make up "firearms law" outside the actual law that Parliament has enacted.

Edited by enfieldspares
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36 minutes ago, enfieldspares said:

Gina Miller? She was the person who wanted the Courts to remind Johnson that it is Parliament that makes the law

She was also the person that tried to thwart the brexit verdict of the majority by constant court cases trying to bend the law.  Who paid for that then?

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A moment on Google shows that Gina Miller is a woman of means, who has used her money to pursue various causes as she wishes.

The law is what it is. It is not something which is "bent" by an individual, nor by so-called "lefty" or indeed "righty" lawyers. Governments make laws and every one of us is at liberty to test the true meaning of those laws in the courts.

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21 hours ago, JohnfromUK said:

Personally, I think the "ambulance chasing lawyers" are at the route of all these legal challenges fighting 'causes', whether they be the Archie Battersbee case, asylum seekers, Wild Justice, LACS, diesel car emissions compensation (a claim for which I have just been urged by a no doubt very expensive national radio advert to join), mis-selling of various financial types etc. 

If you can get lots of people interested (which is where as others have stated the internet comes in) and 'crowd fund' - then the shady lawyers get rich pickings whatever the outcome for the claimants (who are just a pawn in the legal money making machine).  The culture is maintained by appeals to ever higher (and more expensive) levels of the justice system.  Remember - we as tax payers are probably funding one 'side'.

This is spot on. 

I'd also add it highlights the two tier system in this country, civil law is only open to the very wealthy and allows a privileged few to attempt to manipulative some of the most important issues in life, that option simply wouldn't be open to the vast majority of the UK. 

Gina Miller and Brexit blocking the government, Rwanda deportations, Prince Andrew effectively paying off and silencing his accuser, where others would have possibly ended up in jail. 

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Returning to the Archie topic. Yes, a tragedy to loose a child. Now they are calling for an enquiry into the legal system.

If any enquiry is required it must surely be into the events that led to the young boy being found unconscious.

An on line challenge?

Who set it up and how can it be stopped from happening again. IMHO that’s where the emphasis should now be.

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3 hours ago, Fisheruk said:

Returning to the Archie topic. Yes, a tragedy to loose a child. Now they are calling for an enquiry into the legal system.

If any enquiry is required it must surely be into the events that led to the young boy being found unconscious.

An on line challenge?

Who set it up and how can it be stopped from happening again. IMHO that’s where the emphasis should now be.

I agree and as a youth worker I get media safeguarding training (it's grim) on every media platform you could imagine on how to spot signs and how to educate young people of the dangers of them. The trouble is, these things are like the Hydra's heads. You shut one off and more fill its place. Also, sometimes they don't actually exist until after the claims about them are made high profile, which is odd. Both Momo and Blue Whale probably didn't initially exist - and may still not. However, especially with Momo, young people hear about them and what people are apparently doing and being made to do, even if it was all a hoax in the first place. The language used in these challenges can be incredibly vague, so it's impossible to definitively prove intention was to incite suicide - or even to self harm. That causes a problem for the algorithms that make firewalls work. If they were triggered by phrases like 'congratulations on levelling up' and 'are you ready to master the ultimate challenge?' every gaming platform in the world would be shut out completely unnecessarily - as would the government's development plan for the North!

Education in internet safety for young people is critical. Social media's permanence means the next one is never far away, so if we can't beat them, at least we can try to educate young people about them, because they won't be able to protect themselves without it.

As to the case and Archie, here's a good article on the case from The Guardian, written by a palliative care doctor:

What can we learn from the awful tragedy of Archie Battersbee’s death? | Rachel Clarke | The Guardian

As an aside, I want to know one thing. Is there evidence that this was an internet challenge? They're the vogue fear for parents these days (good ol' social media) but at the same time, how many times have parents said 'I never saw the signs' and 'he was always so happy and full of life' after their child has chosen to commit suicide? 

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Thanks for sharing that article, very informative and understanding. I just hope those who have funded the legal challenges thus far gain some understanding and call it a day, even put some of their considerable resources into a forensic examination of what led to him being found unconscious. Too many kids shut themselves in their rooms and detach themselves from those who live them. 

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